From RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com Thu Apr 1 11:42:36 2004 From: RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com (West, Ronald S.) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:42:36 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H-8 question from a new list member. Message-ID: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9B19@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> I am working on designing an IDE port for my H-8. I have found a few designs on the web that are not for the H-8 directly but can be used as a good start for the project (IDE connector pin outs, etc.). As part of this I will put the IDE port on a plug in board (the wirewrap board) and will mount it and a small laptop hard drive (175MB) inside the H-8. If all goes well I will have drives that show up as SY0, 1, 2, etc. and are 5MB or 10MB or so in size. It should speed up complicated compiles greatly. The hard part will be the device driver. Have not written a device driver for HDOS in a very long time so hopefully it will all come back to me ;^D Has anyone heard of someone doing this with the H-8 or H-89 already? Sure would be nice to help shortcut the development time and get to other cool stuff. I have some other ideas also but they all kind of hinge on getting away from the old floppys that are slow and failing quickly. Thanks, Ron [wb4oum] -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Apr 1 12:07:42 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 10:07:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sebhc] HDOS & IDE (was: H-8 question from a new list member) In-Reply-To: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9B19@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Message-ID: <20040401180742.59578.qmail@web80210.mail.yahoo.com> Ron, This is a great idea, and something I was considering as well (though more in the role of "facilitator" rather than designer; I get lost pretty quickly once I'm done to the component level). The FLEX user's group just did exactly this, but in SS-30 format for the 6809. Schematics and driver source are available; if you don't have access, let me know and I will forward info to you. Using PCexpress, bareboard per unit cost was about $20. As for partitions, what is the max drive size that HDOS will support? The other thing that I would like to see in a new form factor is the XCON board for those of us still running 8080 systems. This raises the knotty issue of copyrighted ROM code, but that's a question for another time. And of course, if you're sticking a new board in the box, why not add a couple SRAM chips and 32/64/128/whatever K of decent memory? My running '8 is using two 32K SRAMs sitting on about 1/8 of an otherwise bare prototype board. You could do all this, including mounting a 2.5" laptop drive (or IDE flash card) on a single full-size card and still have room left over! Jack "West, Ronald S." wrote: I am working on designing an IDE port for my H-8. I have found a few designs on the web that are not for the H-8 directly but can be used as a good start for the project (IDE connector pin outs, etc.). As part of this I will put the IDE port on a plug in board (the wirewrap board) and will mount it and a small laptop hard drive (175MB) inside the H-8. If all goes well I will have drives that show up as SY0, 1, 2, etc. and are 5MB or 10MB or so in size. It should speed up complicated compiles greatly. The hard part will be the device driver. Have not written a device driver for HDOS in a very long time so hopefully it will all come back to me ;^D Has anyone heard of someone doing this with the H-8 or H-89 already? Sure would be nice to help shortcut the development time and get to other cool stuff. I have some other ideas also but they all kind of hinge on getting away from the old floppys that are slow and failing quickly. Thanks, Ron [wb4oum] -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Thu Apr 1 14:11:53 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:11:53 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] H-8 question from a new list member. References: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9B19@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Message-ID: <406C7789.5B04@earthlink.net> West, Ronald S. wrote: > I am working on designing an IDE port for my H-8. I have found a > few designs on the web that are not for the H-8 directly but can > be used as a good start for the project (IDE connector pin outs, > etc.). > Has anyone heard of someone doing this with the H-8 or H-89 already? The GIDE board was designed by a group in Germany, and I think they are selling them for a good price. This is a tiny credit-card sized PC board. If your H8 has a Z80 CPU board, you unplug the Z80, plug this Z80 into the GIDE board instead, and plug the GIDE board into the Z80 socket. It adds not only the IDE interface, but a real-time clock and some other features. They have software for CP/M, though you have to do some assembly language work on it yourself to suit your computer and the IDE drive you use. > will mount it and a small laptop hard drive (175MB) inside the H-8. Of course, even 175 Mb is 10 times bigger than CP/M will handle. :-) It might be more straightforward to add a SCSI drive. The Heath H47/H67 interfaces for the H8 basically were an early implementation of SCSI. A number of people plugged in a small SCSI drive from an old Mac, and just used the existing Heath H67 software to talk to it. As I recall, the process is: - get an H47 or H67 interface board for your H8 (or build one with an NCR 5380 or equivalent chip) - make an adapter cable to convert Heath's 40-pin SASI to 50-pin SCSI (basically a few wires need to be shuffled around) - connect a 10 megabyte or larger SCSI hard drive - use the Heath H67 Prep/Part utilities to format the hard drive (the stock Heath software can only format it as 10 megs, no matter how large the drive actuall is. Hacking is needed for other sizes) - use MAKEBIOS to make a Heath CP/M BIOS to support the H67 The process for doing this on an H89 would be somewhat easier, because I already have a bunch of H47 and H67 I/O boards :-) > The hard part will be the device driver. Have not written a device > driver for HDOS in a very long time so hopefully it will all come > back to me ;^D I know the H67 driver existed for HDOS. If you can find it, it would serve as an example. Finally, it is my opinion that using a physical mechanical hard disk isn't worth the trouble any more. You can get RAM and FlashROM cards and chips so cheaply, and it is so easy to interface them that they have become a far better mass storage solution. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Thu Apr 1 12:42:43 2004 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:42:43 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] HDOS & IDE (was: H-8 question from a new list member) In-Reply-To: <20040401180742.59578.qmail@web80210.mail.yahoo.com> (message from Jack Rubin on Thu, 1 Apr 2004 10:07:42 -0800 (PST)) References: <20040401180742.59578.qmail@web80210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1080838305@rothfus.com> > And of course, if you're sticking a new board in the box, why not > add a couple SRAM chips and 32/64/128/whatever K of decent memory? > My running '8 is using two 32K SRAMs sitting on about 1/8 of an > otherwise bare prototype board. That would, indeed, be a nice addition. As Jack knows, I've had to do the same thing with my H8. One of my four 16k boards was whacked somehow, and instead of taking the time to fix it, it was FAR easier to wire up a 128k static ram (I have some laying around) on an H8 breadboard that I have. I really should create a bank switching driver just for the heck of it...can't really think of why I would do that... :-) Eric -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Apr 1 12:55:36 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 10:55:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sebhc] H-8 question from a new list member. Message-ID: <200404011855.KAA21334@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I think that IDE is about the easiest. The only hard part is that you need to create buffering and latches to have 16 bit data. One can partition the drive or just not use it all. Most people don't have hundreds of megabits of CP/M files anyway. Dwight >From: "Lee Hart" > >West, Ronald S. wrote: >> I am working on designing an IDE port for my H-8. I have found a >> few designs on the web that are not for the H-8 directly but can >> be used as a good start for the project (IDE connector pin outs, >> etc.). > >> Has anyone heard of someone doing this with the H-8 or H-89 already? > >The GIDE board was designed by a group in Germany, and I think they are >selling them for a good price. This is a tiny credit-card sized PC >board. If your H8 has a Z80 CPU board, you unplug the Z80, plug this Z80 >into the GIDE board instead, and plug the GIDE board into the Z80 >socket. It adds not only the IDE interface, but a real-time clock and >some other features. They have software for CP/M, though you have to do >some assembly language work on it yourself to suit your computer and the >IDE drive you use. > >> will mount it and a small laptop hard drive (175MB) inside the H-8. > >Of course, even 175 Mb is 10 times bigger than CP/M will handle. :-) > >It might be more straightforward to add a SCSI drive. The Heath H47/H67 >interfaces for the H8 basically were an early implementation of SCSI. A >number of people plugged in a small SCSI drive from an old Mac, and just >used the existing Heath H67 software to talk to it. As I recall, the >process is: > > - get an H47 or H67 interface board for your H8 > (or build one with an NCR 5380 or equivalent chip) > - make an adapter cable to convert Heath's 40-pin SASI to 50-pin SCSI > (basically a few wires need to be shuffled around) > - connect a 10 megabyte or larger SCSI hard drive > - use the Heath H67 Prep/Part utilities to format the hard drive > (the stock Heath software can only format it as 10 megs, no matter > how large the drive actuall is. Hacking is needed for other sizes) > - use MAKEBIOS to make a Heath CP/M BIOS to support the H67 > >The process for doing this on an H89 would be somewhat easier, because I >already have a bunch of H47 and H67 I/O boards :-) > >> The hard part will be the device driver. Have not written a device >> driver for HDOS in a very long time so hopefully it will all come >> back to me ;^D > >I know the H67 driver existed for HDOS. If you can find it, it would >serve as an example. > >Finally, it is my opinion that using a physical mechanical hard disk >isn't worth the trouble any more. You can get RAM and FlashROM cards and >chips so cheaply, and it is so easy to interface them that they have >become a far better mass storage solution. >-- >"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the >world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade >-- >Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net > >-- >This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List > -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Thu Apr 1 15:32:42 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 13:32:42 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] Welcome and bio References: <20040331023229.EWCG23599.mta10.adelphia.net@VAIO> Message-ID: <406C8A7A.1112@earthlink.net> Hello to all! Oh, it's a joy to see so many familiar names appearing! Here's my bio: To me, there was something special, almost magical about Heathkits. I credit them with giving me an enjoyable, rewarding career. I grew up in a small town (Dowagiac MI), bright and interested in science and engineering. But, it was a town where you grew up to be a farmer, or a jock, or if you were lucky, moved to the Big City (Detroit) and worked in an auto plant. But, I was lucky! It was 1960, and Heath Company existed. My parents knew about Heath, because they knew Howard Anthony (then president of Heath); he too had grown up in Dowagiac MI! So, I got a Heathkit for my 10th birthday. It was a 4-tube radio, covering the AM and shortwave bands. After much trial and tribulation (and a trip to a local TV/radio repair shop to learn how to solder), it worked! I can still remember the thrill of saying "I made it myself!" The TV/radio shop that helped me bought Heath test equipment, but didn't like assembling the kits (it's what they did all day anyway). So, they gave them to me to assemble. I was in heaven. I probably built 50 Heathkits by the time I was 15. Listening to the shortwave bands on my Heath receiver got me interested in ham radio. I started working at the TV/Radio shop (they *paid* me to build kits!) as well as sweeping floors, moving TVs around, and fixing TVs when the other servicemen could point out what needed replacing. I used my income to buy Heath ham radio gear, and got my Novice license (WB8DQN). By the time I was in high school, I had a regular job at the TV shop as a repairman. When I graduated, I decided to become an electronics technician and went to a 2-year school, Lake Superior State College. But I quickly found out I already knew most of what they were teaching, and switched to electrical engineering. I got my BSEE in 1973 from Michigan Tech Univesity. I went to work for Eastman Kodak, and was there until 1980. But I found they were incredibly backward and stodgy about electronics. They believed "film is forever", and I was always fighting with management to put electronics in their products. At home, I was building and designing microcomputers; the Mark8 with its 8008, RCA Elf with its 1802, then S-100 computers (IMSAI 8080, Northstar, etc.) with the 8080 and Z80. A friend from college started Technical Micro Systems (TMSI) in 1980, and offered to hire me as 'chief engineer'. I took it! We designed CMOS microcomputers based on the RCA 1802 for industrial users. Our own computers were initially S-100 systems, but we switched to the new and wonderful H89s. When the IBM PC boom began, TMSI gradually shifted to follow the mob and design "PC compatible" products. As we were already familiar with the H89, I designed a replacement CPU board called the H-1000, which had a 4 MHz Z80 and 8 MHz 8086 and 1 megabyte of memory. It did everything the H89 could do, and could boot and run PC-DOS, and was faster and had more memory than even the IBM AT. But, TMSI was too small a company to keep up with the frantic pace and intensely competitive PC-clone world. TMSI put all its resources into the PC market, but it wasn't enough; it killed the company. I lost my job, my home, my life savings; everything. So in 1987, I started over as a design engineer at Robertshaw Controls, designing the microcontrollers for home appliances, furnaces, and the like. But they were bought out in a hostile junk-bond takeover, and all the jobs moved to Mexico. I jumped ship before it sank, and went to work for Honeywell in Minneapolis in 1992. At Honeywell, I also designed furnace controls. I figured this was their core business, and they were the best on the market; that *had* to be secure. Wrong. Honeywell was bought out by General Signal, and engaged in a massive out-sourcing and layoff campaign. I was laid off in 1997. (Honeywell/General Signal has continued to go downhill; they were in turn been bought by GE, and the Dilbert-style madness is only getting worse.) At this point, I did some hard thinking about my life. I have always wanted to be an engineer; to design things that really mattered, and made people's lives better. I thought a big company was the place to do it, but I was wrong. The ones I worked for were only interested in money, and maintaining the status quo. They did as LITTLE innovation as possible, took advantage of engineers who worked hard, and gave them nothing in return; no money, no status, no job security. All the jobs I could find were to design useless products that meant nothing, helped nobody, and were destined to be landfill within a year or two. So, I became a consulting engineer. I took a drastic pay cut, but now only accept contracts that really interest me, and for projects that I think will actually make a difference and help to make the world better. I've always been interested in elctric cars. I've also been building and driving them for 20 years now (I'm on my 4th one). So, I ve been designing battery chargers and monitoring systems, motor controllers, and related products for electric vehicles. I'm currently desiging the charging system for the Tango EV, a revolutionary concept in transportation (see www.commutercars.com). I also finally got married, and have an 8-year-old son. He is just like me; bright, eager, and interested in building things. But the world has changed. Heathkit is gone. I have bought him electronic kids, and he loves building them as much as I did. But, today's kits have horrible quality, worthless manuals, and do useless things -- without my help he wouldn't have a chance. I still have many of my old computers; he loves playing games on them and is just starting to learn programming (he's only up to Tiny BASIC so far). I think adults forget that kid's standards are far lower than adults. Kids *still* love playing with cardboard boxes, building treehouses, tinkering with their bikes, and playing "Zork" or "Y-Wing" on an H89. It's the *adults* who think that kids NEED vastly complicated expensive powerful toys! I started a program called BEST (Bridging Science, Engineering, and Teaching -- see www.bestoutreach.org). I and a dozen other engineers go into 4th-6th grade classrooms, and mentor the kids to teach them how to use simple tools, how science and engineering work, and how to actually design and build something. The project we have them build is an electric 'car'. Without plans, without a kit, without money, and without adult work, these kids are building go-kart-like electric vehicles that they can drive and race! For example, my 5th graders last year invented their own Segway -- a 2-wheel, self-balancing, non-tandem vehicle that can legally be driven anywhere you can walk, without helmet, license, or age limit. THAT shows that today's kids CAN think creatively! But, it takes people like me and my fellow engineers in BEST to introduce kids today to the joy of actually inventing and building things. Kids start at the bottom of the technology ladder. We've sawed off all the rungs that I used as a kid to climb up. We hand them a finished solution, and assume they will somehow figure out how it works or came to be built. It doesn't work. They treat it as a magic box, that you must buy from someone else. Sure, they learn like monkeys to push buttons to make things happen, but have no understanding at all of how it really works. How can we expect today's kids to solve the staggeringly complex problems they will face in the world we are leaving to them? Pollution, energy shortages, overpopulation, etc. are all getting worse, and we have no solutions. Heathkit, where are you now? We NEED you more than ever!!! -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 1 14:05:20 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:05:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sebhc] H-8 question from a new list member. In-Reply-To: <406C7789.5B04@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > Finally, it is my opinion that using a physical mechanical hard disk > isn't worth the trouble any more. You can get RAM and FlashROM cards and > chips so cheaply, and it is so easy to interface them that they have > become a far better mass storage solution. > -- Lee, don't the Flash cards have a limit on the number of times they can be written to? g. -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com Thu Apr 1 15:01:07 2004 From: RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com (West, Ronald S.) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 16:01:07 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] HDOS & IDE (was: H-8 question from a new list member) Message-ID: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9B1C@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Jack (& others), Thanks to all for the great ideas. I didn't know that the H67 was SCSI-like in its design. I have the H37/H67 board and will have to pull out the schematics and check that out. Will also review the drivers for the H67 as that will answer a few questions. Like, what sector size did they use & what disk size will HDOS 2.0 accommodate. If someone has used a 128k SRAM chip (I think that was Eric) for memory I would be interested in which device was used. That might be something that could be included on the eventual circuit board. Also, does anyone know if the edge connectors are still available? I am also genning up a web page on my home server that I might be able to post pictures on and schematics, source code, etc. When I get something worth reading I will give out the IP address (which changes every 30 days or so. Good old Verizon DSL). I have one hurdle in my way at present. I zapped some diodes mounted on the backplane last time I was playing with it. Plugged the zero-org board in backwards. Yikes! Felt like a dufus what I did that, but its done so I won't cry about it. It appears I will have to remove the backplane as those components are mounted directly on it. Once that is done I will start bread boarding and give some feedback on SEBHC as to my progress. Was wondering about how to modify the ROM code to allow booting from the eventual IDE interface but there may be a way to have the H67 boot code detect the new interface and use it instead of the H67. Will look into that. Getting a bit ahead of myself here. Need to fix the old workhorse first. Ron -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at staunch89er.com [mailto:sebhc at staunch89er.com] On Behalf Of Jack Rubin Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 1:08 PM To: sebhc at staunch89er.com Subject: [sebhc] HDOS & IDE (was: H-8 question from a new list member) Ron, This is a great idea, and something I was considering as well (though more in the role of "facilitator" rather than designer; I get lost pretty quickly once I'm done to the component level). The FLEX user's group just did exactly this, but in SS-30 format for the 6809. Schematics and driver source are available; if you don't have access, let me know and I will forward info to you. Using PCexpress, bareboard per unit cost was about $20. As for partitions, what is the max drive size that HDOS will support? The other thing that I would like to see in a new form factor is the XCON board for those of us still running 8080 systems. This raises the knotty issue of copyrighted ROM code, but that's a question for another time. And of course, if you're sticking a new board in the box, why not add a couple SRAM chips and 32/64/128/whatever K of decent memory? My running '8 is using two 32K SRAMs sitting on about 1/8 of an otherwise bare prototype board. You could do all this, including mounting a 2.5" laptop drive (or IDE flash card) on a single full-size card and still have room left over! Jack "West, Ronald S." wrote: I am working on designing an IDE port for my H-8. I have found a few designs on the web that are not for the H-8 directly but can be used as a good start for the project (IDE connector pin outs, etc.). As part of this I will put the IDE port on a plug in board (the wirewrap board) and will mount it and a small laptop hard drive (175MB) inside the H-8. If all goes well I will have drives that show up as SY0, 1, 2, etc. and are 5MB or 10MB or so in size. It should speed up complicated compiles greatly. The hard part will be the device driver. Have not written a device driver for HDOS in a very long time so hopefully it will all come back to me ;^D Has anyone heard of someone doing this with the H-8 or H-89 already? Sure would be nice to help shortcut the development time and get to other cool stuff. I have some other ideas also but they all kind of hinge on getting away from the old floppys that are slow and failing quickly. Thanks, Ron [wb4oum] -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Thu Apr 1 15:32:23 2004 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 16:32:23 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] HDOS & IDE (was: H-8 question from a new list member) In-Reply-To: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9B1C@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> (RONALD.S.WEST@saic.com) References: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9B1C@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Message-ID: <1080854286@rothfus.com> > If someone has used a 128k SRAM chip (I think that was Eric) for > memory I would be interested in which device was used. That might be > something that could be included on the eventual circuit > board. Also, does anyone know if the edge connectors are still > available? Yup, that was me. I use it in the SVD device I've built. And I had a very important reason for using the one I did... I found them for a buck a piece on E-Bay! You can find the schematic for the SVD which uses the chip on www.theSVD.com in the PCB & Schematic section. The device I found was a Samsung KM681000BLP-7, though it is pin-compatible with many 128k X 8 devices such as the TC551001CP (I forget the manufacturer). I use two different parts in the SVD and they both work fine. Regarding the connectors, you can find them on Digikey and Mouser as well as at Frys. However, in my never-ending quest to my the SVD cheap, I've found a great source of 34-pin edge- card connectors...old floppy cables. The old connectors are quite robust and appear to be able to handle being taken off of an existing cable and re-used. We have a Goodwill Computer Store here in Austin, and I'm able to get old floppy cables with 3 or 4 connectors for $.50 a piece. Let me know if you need a few. > I am also genning up a web page on my home server that I might be > able to post pictures on and schematics, source code, etc. When I > get something worth reading I will give out the IP address (which > changes every 30 days or so. Good old Verizon DSL). Check out no-ip.com. They can help you attach a name to that changing DSL IP address. Eric -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Thu Apr 1 17:26:46 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:26:46 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] H-8 question from a new list member. References: Message-ID: <406CA536.5269@earthlink.net> Gene Buckle wrote: > > > Finally, it is my opinion that using a physical mechanical hard disk > > isn't worth the trouble any more. You can get RAM and FlashROM cards and > > chips so cheaply, and it is so easy to interface them that they have > > become a far better mass storage solution. > > -- > > Lee, don't the Flash cards have a limit on the number of times they can be > written to? Yes, but it is thousands of times. Flash is best for program storage; things that rarely change. CMOS RAM (with a little battery for backup) is best for data storage; things that you change all the time. To give you an idea of cost, a 32 megabyte compact flash memory card is $20, and a 64 megabyte compact RAM memory card is $27 from Digikey. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Thu Apr 1 17:00:00 2004 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 18:00:00 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H-8 question from a new list member. In-Reply-To: <406CA536.5269@earthlink.net> (message from Lee Hart on Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:26:46 -0800) References: <406CA536.5269@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1080855171@rothfus.com> > To give you an idea of cost, a 32 megabyte compact flash memory card > is $20, and a 64 megabyte compact RAM memory card is $27 from > Digikey. But a 4M compact flash can be had on e-bay for a couple of bucks. You could store quite a few CP/M files on one of those. In any event, it would be nice to have the choice. Eric -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 1 17:20:27 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 15:20:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sebhc] H-8 question from a new list member. In-Reply-To: <406CA536.5269@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > > > > Lee, don't the Flash cards have a limit on the number of times they can be > > written to? > > Yes, but it is thousands of times. Flash is best for program storage; > things that rarely change. CMOS RAM (with a little battery for backup) > is best for data storage; things that you change all the time. > Makes me wonder how long my much used USB thumbdrive is going to last before it becomes a read-only device. :) (sorry for the topic drift folks) g. -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Thu Apr 1 19:32:32 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 17:32:32 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] HDOS & IDE (was: H-8 question from a new list member) References: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9B1C@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Message-ID: <406CC2B0.36C8@earthlink.net> West, Ronald S. wrote: > Thanks to all for the great ideas. I didn't know that the H67 was > SCSI-like in its design. I have the H37/H67 board... Aha! Then you have 90% of a hard disk implementation already done! At the time the H67 was designed, it was called SASI (Shugart Associates System Interface). It was later renamed SCSI (Small Computer System Interface), but it is basically the same thing. SCSI standardized on a 50-pin connector. At the time Heath did it there was no standard, and they chose a 40-pin connector. As I recall, there are just a few wires that are different. You can make an adapter with a length of ribbon cable, a 40-pin, and a 50-pin insulation-displacement connector. You slit the cable, and shift something like the last 6 wires in 10 positions. The SASI/SCSI interface does not operate at the track/sector/cylinder level. Basically, a hard disk just has "N" blocks of data. The actual sector size and mapping between tracks/sectors/heads is all left up to the drive itself. The drive does all the buffering and formatting. > Will also review the drivers for the H67 as that will answer a few > questions. Like, what sector size did they use & what disk size > will HDOS 2.0 accommodate. Again from memory, I don't think Heath supplied source for their PREP/PART utilities, and they were written to assume a single 10meg drive -- period. Other Heath aftermarket suppliers (Sigmasoft, Quikdata, etc.) reverse-engineered them or wrote their own for other sizes. Perhaps someone who had one of these setups knows... > If someone has used a 128k SRAM chip (I think that was Eric)... I used a Hitachi HM628512LP-70, which is a 512k byte part from Jameco for about $20 each. Kind of expensive, but easy to use; it's a standard 32-pin DIP with generic bytewide-pinouts, not one of the tiny surface-mount parts. The 128k byte equivalent is the Hitachi HM628128LP-85, also from Jameco for $8.49 each. > Also, does anyone know if the edge connectors are still available? Do you mean the H8 and H89 Molex pin headers used on all the cards? Yes, they are still a standard part stocked by any Molex distributor. > Was wondering about how to modify the ROM code to allow booting > from the eventual IDE interface but there may be a way to have > the H67 boot code detect the new interface and use it instead > of the H67. If you use a SASI/SCSI hard drive, the existing code for booting from an H67 should basically work. The main difficulties would be if you use a larger drive and have more/larger partitions. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Thu Apr 1 18:38:11 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 16:38:11 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] HDOS & IDE (was: H-8 question from a new list member) In-Reply-To: <1080838305@rothfus.com> Message-ID: Eric Rothfus wrote: > One of my four 16k boards was whacked > somehow, and instead of taking the time to fix it, it was FAR easier > to wire up a 128k static ram (I have some laying around) on an H8 > breadboard that I have. I really should create a bank switching > driver just for the heck of it...can't really think of why I would do > that... :-) RAM disk. :-) -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From gfroberts at adelphia.net Thu Apr 1 18:43:11 2004 From: gfroberts at adelphia.net (Deb and Glenn Roberts) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 19:43:11 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] USB for the H8? Message-ID: <20040402004301.OGCB20146.mta10.adelphia.net@VAIO> I think all the discussion on how to interface to "modern" storage (e.g. IDE, flash memory, or cabling to a PC) is right on target. The only real problem I have with the H8 is the reliability of the old hard-sectored disk media and the H17 drives (having to clean the heads a lot which presumably means the oxide is continuing to erode) Has anyone given any given any thought to building a simple USB adapter for the H8? It seems there are lots of inexpensive solutions for adding USB. Add an inexpensive thumb drive and write a device driver and you're in business. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who's tried it given this some thought. - Glenn - From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Thu Apr 1 19:18:27 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 17:18:27 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] Magnolia In-Reply-To: <005401c417a1$a2e7f2e0$6401a8c0@knology.net> Message-ID: Paul, I've misplaced my 77316 installation guide. I know I have it, I just don't know where it got off to (I recently moved my "lab" to another part of the house, and taking something that's not at all organized and moving it didn't improve it's character). If you've got a scan handy, I'd appreciate it... I do have an EPROM. I'm not sure if it's a good one (may be down-revved or light-struck). Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at staunch89er.com [mailto:sebhc at staunch89er.com]On Behalf Of > Paul Pennington > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 8:27 PM > To: sebhc at staunch89er.com > Subject: [sebhc] Magnolia > > > Patrick; > > Just ventured into the attic and rescued three binders of info on my > H/Z-90 and Magnolia Microsystems soft sector contriller. Do you > have these > half-size booklets: > > 1. Magnolia Microsystems Monitor EPROM 444-84B for the > Heath/Zenith Z89 > and Z90 Computer Systems, Revised 11/8/82. > > 2. Installing Magnolia Microsystems' 77316 Double Density Disk > Controller in a Heath/Zenith Z89 or Z90 Computer System, Revised 11/8/82. > > Let me know if you have those and we'll go from there. > > There was also a 1983 Heathkit Christmas Catalog in there -- quite a > nostalgia trip. > > Paul Pennington > Augusta, Georgia > > -- > This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List > -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 1 21:50:27 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 19:50:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sebhc] USB for the H8? In-Reply-To: <20040402004301.OGCB20146.mta10.adelphia.net@VAIO> Message-ID: > Has anyone given any given any thought to building a simple USB adapter for > the H8? It seems there are lots of inexpensive solutions for adding USB. > Add an inexpensive thumb drive and write a device driver and you're in > business. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who's tried it given this > some thought. > What about building an SVD with a USB socket on it? Cypress makes some really cool USB controller uP chips. g. -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Thu Apr 1 23:14:27 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:14:27 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] H-8 question from a new list member. References: Message-ID: <406CF6B3.7A63@earthlink.net> Gene Buckle wrote: > Makes me wonder how long my much used USB thumbdrive is going to last > before it becomes a read-only device. :) It's worse than that, Gene. A friend of mine wanted to test the life of one of his flash-memory based gadgets, so he set up a test to read and write to it over and over. After about 10,000 read/write cycles, he said "Hah! These are good for lots more cycles than they said." The next day he tried it again. It had lost the data overnight. He could still write to it, and read the data back immediately. But it faded away in just a few hours. Apparently, the more times you write to it, the shorter the data retention time, until it is too short to be of any practical use. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Thu Apr 1 19:42:20 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 17:42:20 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] H-8 question from a new list member. References: <406CA536.5269@earthlink.net> <1080855171@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <406CC4FC.4112@earthlink.net> Eric J. Rothfus wrote: >> To give you an idea of cost, a 32 megabyte compact flash memory card >> is $20, and a 64 megabyte compact RAM memory card is $27 from >> Digikey. These are brand-new parts, with data sheets, documentation, etc. At full retail, of course. > But a 4M compact flash can be had on e-bay for a couple of bucks. > You could store quite a few CP/M files on one of those. In any > event, it would be nice to have the choice. Well yes; everything is 'free' on ebay -- if you can find it, if the supplier isn't misrepresenting it, if what you get is complete enough to actually use :-) As long as you know what you're getting, go for it! -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Fri Apr 2 00:08:40 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:08:40 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] USB for the H8? References: <20040402004301.OGCB20146.mta10.adelphia.net@VAIO> Message-ID: <406D0368.34D2@earthlink.net> Deb and Glenn Roberts wrote: > The only real problem I have with the H8 is the reliability of the > old hard-sectored disk media and the H17 drives (having to clean > the heads a lot which presumably means the oxide is continuing to > erode) Same here. I am finding that more and more of my old 5.25" floppies are gradually dying. As you say, I have to keep cleaning the disk drive heads, so it's either that the oxide is coming unstuck, or that something is growing on them. What a surprise -- many are over 20 years old! It's still not too hard to find blank 5.25" soft-sector disks, so I have been (slowly) copying my old H37 disks onto newer ones. Or, I can plug in a 3.5" floppy drive, and copy my H37 5.25" disks to 3.5" media. (I haven't done this, because it appears that 3.5" disks are LESS reliable than 5.25"). But hard-sector disks are a real problem. You can't buy new ones, and you can't copy them to other media. > I think all the discussion on how to interface to "modern" storage > (e.g. IDE, flash memory, or cabling to a PC) is right on target. > Has anyone given any given any thought to building a simple USB > adapter for the H8? It seems there are lots of inexpensive > solutions for adding USB. Add an inexpensive thumb drive and write > a device driver and you're in business. I'd be interested in > hearing from anyone who's tried it given this some thought. Hardware-wise, there is nothing magical about a USB interface. It is just a fast serial port. There are lots of chips that can implement it. The real problem is software. Many USB devices are explicitly designed for PCs, and require special (secret, undocumented) software drivers to work. This blocks things like USB printers, modems, and thumb drives from ever being interfaced to anything except late-model PCs and Windows. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 1 23:48:11 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:48:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sebhc] H-8 question from a new list member. In-Reply-To: <406CF6B3.7A63@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > The next day he tried it again. It had lost the data overnight. He could > still write to it, and read the data back immediately. But it faded away > in just a few hours. Apparently, the more times you write to it, the > shorter the data retention time, until it is too short to be of any > practical use. Well that just sucks. Thanks for the clue. :) g. -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From waltm22 at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 03:16:17 2004 From: waltm22 at comcast.net (Walter Moore) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 01:16:17 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] I spoke HDOS... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c41893$2ae730b0$0700a8c0@walterp4> ...a long time ago. $reminisce on /* (i.e. you may want to skip forward...) */ It only took me about a week of looking at the Heathkit add in Byte Magazine in the summer of 1977 before I went ahead and ordered an H-8 with cassette I/O and two massively large 8K static RAM boards, the cassette software and one of those dreaded H-9 video terminals. I would have loved to have had the IMSAI or the Northstar, but as a college student, they were just too expensive. Come November, there was a knock on the door and a freight company (I hadn't even heard of FedEx then) delivered a very large box to my door. Hard decision - pass my physics class or solder together the computer. I remember laughing during the physics final because I didn't know half the stuff on the test - obviously I spent most the time working on the computer. I am sure that everyone who put one together can remember the joy of seeing: _ |_| _ _ |_| |_| _| |_| |_| | | | |_| _ _ _ |_ |_| |_| _ _| | _| |_| | | | | | |_| _ _ _ _ _ |_| | |_| | | | | | | | _| on the front panel. I actually took the computer to my brother and keyed in the program again so he could see it (my first portable?)! An H8, H9 and dual cassettes was almost usable by 1977 standards West Coast Computer Faire, 1978. Life was good. Road trip from Seattle to the Faire. Heathkit was there with the H17. WOW! Dual disk drives and an operating system! I couldn't wait for the kit version of the disk, so I ordered the factory assembled one. I think it was late November that I had the disks up and running. Then I discovered that JGL had ported this game called "Adventure" to the H8. I needed another 8K to run it. I bought that 8K board and my brother, his wife and I spent three days at Christmas mapping out the cave. Life was great. In Feb '79 I added the LA36 Decwriter II to the system. It had a 20ma current-loop interface, so the H9 got configured to 20ma and I could get hardcopy just by hitting the online key (yea, I suffered at a slow baud rate, but it was hardcopy and the H9 would "blank out" at a higher baud rate). Various stuff, H8-4, more memory, H19, tin-plated buss problems, HDOS 2.0, Microsoft Basic and Fortran, conversion of the LA36 to serial and accelerated to 60 CPS. In 1980, the local Heathkit center gave me $150 trade-in credit for my H-9 when I bought my H19. One of my better deals! Somewhere in here I wrote a device driver for the LA36 (or any ASCII printer) which gave it pretty good forms control and proportional pad characters (The LA36 could be tricked into always printing at it's "catch-up" speed of 60 CPS, but then you had to send NULL characters whenever you did a CR or LF. If you sent the maximum that may be required, short or blank lines were painfully slow. This driver kept track of vertical and horizontal position and sent the minimum NULLs, which resulted in a throughput of about 50 CPS). A friend was trying to market it, I don't know if he sold many copies. In 1981, I upgraded to dual 8" drives. A company called Data Compass made an equivalent to the H47 disk drive. I bought that and sold off my 5.25" drives (big mistake). Dual 1.2 Meg drives! Wow! You could actually do some real work, which I did. In 1981 I compiled the H19 source code and started rewriting it. This was the first step in developing the firmware for the Northwest Digital Systems Graphics-Plus 19. 80/132 column, 25/50 lines, Tektronix 4010/4014 emulation, off-screen scrolling memory, a hardcopy option and a lot more. Amazing what you could fit in 12K or 16K. I still have one. I even believe that they made a version for the H89. Then it was time to get a job, and the H8 received little use over the next couple of years, mostly my brother-in-law doing FORTRAN on it for classes. I guess somewhere in early '86 it was powered down when I got an AT and only recently have I tried to power it up... $reminisce off /* (I warned you that you might want to skip forward!) */ The old H8 has a few problems, but it does try to run. It needs to warm up a little, then it seems stable for a while, last time staying up and running for a week before it crashed. I can't say as much for the 8" disk drives. The Remex drives worked as a master with most of the smarts on it, and a slave which could pretty much read/write disks and send the bytes to the master. My master's head was trashed back in the '80s. The slave was working back then, so I could do a single drive system. Now the slave is not working. It seems the head will not move towards track 0. I am hoping that between the two drives I can get one working drive. Question: Does anybody know of anyone who can read HDOS 2.0 8" DSDD disks? I would love to get any data off these disks that I could. I have a few 8" DSDD drives from other manufacturers which I was going to try if I had to, but if anybody knows of someone who could read them and transfer them to CDROM, that would be great. Over the past year I picked up a few items on eBay. I now have 4 H-8s. One is Z80 based, and three are 8080A based. The Z80 smoked, one shows only the power LED and one other LED, and the last I haven't tried to do anything with, its case being well damaged (may become a parts machine). This week my 6th H88/89 should be showing up. It is supposed to be in running condition. Three of the five in my possession are running, I have a replacement CPU board for a fourth, and I'll have to work on the fifth. I have something like 14 Siemens FDD-100-5 drives (all seem to work), 4 of the Tandom TM100-4 96 tpi drives, 6 H77/37 cases (one pretty well rusted, but it powers up and it only cost $1), 2 H17 3 bay cases, 3 H19s (one needs a keyboard encoder which I can take from a spare video logic board), and a few other spare boards for the H88/89. Also, 3 ET-3400As and two ET-3400s, one with the ETA-3400, all seem to work. I have managed to pick up a soft-sectored controller, but I do not have the driver or the ROMs to make it work in an H89. I would love to be able to make this work in a system. I've acquired some soft-sectored floppies which would be nice to read and burn to CDROM. I have an extra H-8 extended configuration board and extra 8080 CPU card also. As I get stuff working, I'll be letting some of this stuff go. I don't really need six H89s! I also have the HDOS 2.0 source listings. I was going to scan these in and see what I could do to turn them into source code. Does anybody know how common the source is? Has somebody done this? I also have Buss issues 6 - 111, which was also going to get scanned (I'm tired of boxes of paper - time to go digital). Is there interest in these if permission could be gotten to post them? Pretty long introduction, eh? Oh, yea. My name is Walt, I've been programming for 30 years now, my heart programs at assembly level, and I can handle a scope and logic analyzer. I want to thank those that have done the work to start up and contribute to this mail list and hope that we can keep those H-8 panels glowing for a long time. ..walt -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Apr 2 06:47:17 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 06:47:17 -0600 Subject: [sebhc] I spoke HDOS... REMEX drives, XCON, HDOS source, sharing printed info In-Reply-To: <000001c41893$2ae730b0$0700a8c0@walterp4> Message-ID: <002401c418b0$a20d5530$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Walt, thanks for the bio - > $reminisce on /* (i.e. you may want to skip forward...) */ not likely! > I can't say as much for the 8" disk drives. The > Remex drives ... trashed I've got a pair of REMEX drives, condition unknown, which are yours for the shipping cost > I have an extra H-8 extended configuration board though it would be nice to trade for the XCON board! (your call - the drives are yours, regardless) > > I also have the HDOS 2.0 source listings. I was going to > scan these in and see what I could do to turn them into > source code. Does anybody know how common the source is? I have 1.6 and 2.0 source, plus source for cassette basic and H-19; I look at the approx 14" stack of paper, then at my scanner, then at the stack, then.... Do you have the H17 source? > I also have Buss issues 6 - 111, which was also going to get I have BUSS starting at 22, so I'd be very interested in seeing the early issues. Anybody have 1-5? I called Charlie Floto once about another issue but he didn't seem to H8 interested. I'll try him again now that we seem to have a group of folks interested in sharing that early info. I know a few others have collections of BUSS, REMark, Sextant, etc. Maybe we could come up with some sort of library concept (thanks Patrick) in which we shared (copies) of copyrighted material rather than actually posting. Any ideas, suggestions, legal advice welcome. Jack -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Fri Apr 2 11:00:25 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 09:00:25 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] USB for the H8? In-Reply-To: <406D0368.34D2@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > But hard-sector disks are a real problem. You can't buy new ones, and > you can't copy them to other media. Lee, I have found a source for new-manufacture hard-sector diskettes. I've been using them for about 18 months, and I have yet to have a problem. I had ordered a supply of about 400 back then, and I'm getting low. The larger the quantity ordered, the cheaper it gets, so if anyone would like to join me in a future (near future) purchase, please let me know (those of you who already know about this, I haven't forgotten you! I'll be in touch). Best, Patrick -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Fri Apr 2 11:39:37 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 09:39:37 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] USB for the H8? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Has anyone given any given any thought to building a simple USB > adapter for > > the H8? It seems there are lots of inexpensive solutions for > adding USB. > > Add an inexpensive thumb drive and write a device driver and you're in > > business. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who's tried > it given this > > some thought. > > > > What about building an SVD with a USB socket on it? Cypress makes some > really cool USB controller uP chips. > > g. Here comes the heretic in the group. :-) Guys, I don't want to be a nay-sayer, but there's a lot more to supporting USB than just providing the port, even with a uP that integrates it. If the goal is to create a simplistic device to operate USB-based random access storage devices, even the differences between storage devices can make the driver large and potentially too tempermental to be of archival value. The fact that any random device you choose to buy can just be plugged in and works at some level is the product of man-decades of labor in driver development and QA (let alone the hardware), some of those drivers having shipped with the OS, but some requiring separate installation on first use of the device. Go find the DLLs on Windows for these drivers. Most are larger than the entire memory of our target machines. On my Win2K system, the basic USB driver is 39K, add 30K for the basic USB disk driver. Too much. So then what? You could create a simple interface between the uP and the 8/89 and leave all the smarts there, which reduces the driver load on the small-memory system, but you still have gobs of labor on the uP side, and unless the device is Flash-updatable and someone supports it, it can't survive. In ten years, that uP itself will be old news, not supported, and possibly not even available (and not collectible, so good luck finding a replacement if you need it, assuming you can Flash it yourself). And for long-term storage, I don't think USB drives (hard or flash) are particularly well built compared to their "bare metal" kin. They're intended to be the "Bic Pen" of storage media. For me, I'd play it conservative and choose an IDE- or SCSI-based design. They are simple interfaces that are near in architecture both to the hardware of our target machine and to the software environment on which they will run. They can implemented using anything from TTL to simple PIOs to programmable gate arrays. Both of these interfaces have been an enduring standard of storage connection for two decades or more. Even Serial ATA is simpler than USB. The drivers required in these solutions are minimal, and similar approaches for other systems like Howard Harte's new/modern Super-I/O card for S-100 machines demonstrate both the relative simplicity and tremendous value (it supports floppies and IDE, and by extension CompactFlash). To quote a famous movie: "The more you complicate the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." Back in the day, everyone wanted to KISS it. That's the spirit to be kept alive. Just my 2p. Patrick -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 2 12:04:25 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 10:04:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sebhc] USB for the H8? Message-ID: <200404021804.KAA22259@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Lee Hart" > >Deb and Glenn Roberts wrote: >> The only real problem I have with the H8 is the reliability of the >> old hard-sectored disk media and the H17 drives (having to clean >> the heads a lot which presumably means the oxide is continuing to >> erode) > >Same here. I am finding that more and more of my old 5.25" floppies are >gradually dying. As you say, I have to keep cleaning the disk drive >heads, so it's either that the oxide is coming unstuck, or that >something is growing on them. What a surprise -- many are over 20 years >old! Hi That is partly why I've written the program I have. It copies images of the hard sectored disk to the PC. These can then be transfered to CDROMs or other storage media( preferably duplicated ). > >It's still not too hard to find blank 5.25" soft-sector disks, so I have >been (slowly) copying my old H37 disks onto newer ones. Or, I can plug >in a 3.5" floppy drive, and copy my H37 5.25" disks to 3.5" media. (I >haven't done this, because it appears that 3.5" disks are LESS reliable >than 5.25"). > >But hard-sector disks are a real problem. You can't buy new ones, and >you can't copy them to other media. ---snip--- I've been thinking about setting up a punch to make 10 sectored disk out of the pile of other floppies that I have. I have the frame of one of those older drives that is cast. This makes a good base to mount the punch and indexing. The drive is already designed to hold the evelope and the disk so placing a punch in place of the index detector makes sense. I'd put a wheel on the motor side of the drive to make the indexed stops. I could either have 10 stops and one hole or 10 holes and one stop. Having one hole with 10 stops makes it easier to adjust each to be just right. Still for space, if I drill the holes exactly, one stop makes more sense. There are few places that still sell the hard sectored disks. I've seen them on the web but I regret to say I didn't make a bookmark. If someone is interested in my disk saving program, let me know. You need a system with the LP serial port. I've only written code for the 5-1/4 hard sectored disk at 48 tpi, 35 tracks. It has only been tested on my H89 and a H90, with HDOS, so far. You'll need a PC running DOS without windows in the way( boot to DOS ). I'm not sure if it would work on a CP/M modified system but don't know any reason it shouldn't. The program can be used to bring a system up from scratch or simply make backups of disk currently on the system. Dwight -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Fri Apr 2 14:07:18 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 12:07:18 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] USB for the H8? References: Message-ID: <406DC7F6.3354@earthlink.net> Patrick wrote: > Lee, I have found a source for new-manufacture hard-sector diskettes. > I've been using them for about 18 months, and I have yet to have a > problem. I had ordered a supply of about 400 back then, and I'm > getting low. The larger the quantity ordered, the cheaper it gets, > so if anyone would like to join me in a future (near future) > purchase, please let me know (those of you who already know about > this, I haven't forgotten you! I'll be in touch). A group buy is a GREAT idea, as long as they really are new, and not 20-year-old surplus. I'd buy some. Any idea what the price would be? -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Fri Apr 2 15:04:53 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 13:04:53 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] USB for the H8? References: <200404021804.KAA22259@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <406DD575.294E@earthlink.net> Lee Hart wrote: >> more and more of my old 5.25" floppies are gradually dying. Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > That is partly why I've written the program I have. It copies > images of the hard sectored disk to the PC. These can then be > transfered to CDROMs or other storage media (preferably duplicated). Interesting. I can readily see storing the data itself on some other media (floppy, hard disk, CDROM, etc.). What I'm not clear on is: a. How do you insure that you have correctly READ every single sector on the hard-sector disk, including normally 'hidden' data like the physical order of the tracks, sectors, and sides, preamble and postamble bytes, etc. b. How do you put this data BACK onto some other kind of media so that an H89 (or H89 simulator) that may not actually have a hard-sector controller, 5.25" disk drive, or physical 10-hard-sector disk can use it? To put this in concrete terms: Suppose it is 20 years in the future. I have saved all my H17 disks on a CDROM. I want to show my grandson what it was like in the "good old days", and run my old bootable standalone HDOS "Adventure" disk. Suppose I still have my H89, and manage to fix it up and get it working (at least as far as the H: prompt). But all my 5.25" disks are bad or lost. How do I get that H17 disk image from the CDROM onto a real H17 disk? Or, will I need an H89 simulator program that runs on whatever passes for a PC in 20 years? Can it read and boot from that H17 disk image on the CDROM? Does this program exist today, so I'd have a chance of proving to myself today that these CDROM images can actually be used again? > I've been thinking about setting up a punch to make 10 sectored > disk out of the pile of other floppies that I have... That is a good idea. Soft-sectored 5.25" disks are at least 100 times easier to get than 10-hard-sectored. I suspect that there are so many pieces of legacy equipment that still use them that even in 10-20 years these soft-sector disks will still be available. [An aside: A friend of mine just sold an 8" full-height floppy disk drive for $350 to a machine tool company that needed it to repair an ancient DEC minicomputer that runs a milling machine they still use] Or, if we can get a group buy of some NEW hard-sector disks; they should have a reasonable chance of lasting another 10-20 years. If I seem paranoid about this, it's because I recently went through a bit of a crisis cause by this sort of thing. TMSI sold microcontrollers based on the RCA 1802. This is an extremely rugged microcomputer, widely used in military and aerospace applications. The NASA Voyager spacecraft used them. Today, the Voyagers are still working, still sending data from deep space far beyond the orbit of Pluto. But due to budget cuts, layoffs, equipment failures, and other problems, JPL has thrown out, lost, or broken all their 1802 software development systems. Sure, they have backup disks; 8" floppies, written in RCA's odd format that is unreadable by other equipment. Sure, they wrote 1802 simulators; but they had no way to test them to insure that they really did work correctly. So, I was one of a chain of about a dozen people that pieced together a working RCA development system, so we could read the disks. Then write the simulator, and verify that it worked correctly. Then translate the various RCA development tools (editor, assembler, debugger, etc.) so it was possible to modify the Voyager code, test it, and then upload it to the spacecraft with confidence that it would work. It was a major effort that took a couple years. But the end result was to extend the useful life of the spacecraft, allowing it to slow down its data rates and conserve power to continue operation despite the staggering distances and various on-board system degradations and faults. It's easy to assume that: a) If it works today, it will always work. b) If it breaks, I will always be able to get parts for it. c) If I can't, it won't be hard to substitute something I can get. d) I'll always have the documentation. e) Even if I lose it, it will be on the web somewhere. f) Or my memory is good; I'll remember how it works. Microcomputers are turning out to be exceedingly fragile. Losing a page out of a book, or a piece of a photograph isn't so bad; the rest is still usable and you can often reconstruct the missing pieces. But if anything is missing or wrong with a computer, the whole system is dead. It can be very difficult to fix or salvage anything from them, unless an effort is made to preserve EVERYTHING needed to maintain them. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 2 13:46:56 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 11:46:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sebhc] USB for the H8? Message-ID: <200404021946.LAA22307@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Lee Hart" > >Lee Hart wrote: >>> more and more of my old 5.25" floppies are gradually dying. > >Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> That is partly why I've written the program I have. It copies >> images of the hard sectored disk to the PC. These can then be >> transfered to CDROMs or other storage media (preferably duplicated). > >Interesting. I can readily see storing the data itself on some other >media (floppy, hard disk, CDROM, etc.). What I'm not clear on is: > >a. How do you insure that you have correctly READ every single sector > on the hard-sector disk, including normally 'hidden' data like the > physical order of the tracks, sectors, and sides, preamble and > postamble bytes, etc. Hi Lee The only interesting thing that isn't in the data fields is the volume number. I've set it up so one can optionally override this value from the number used by the HDOS, that is in the data fields as well. Most times, you just use it as it comes. If some program fiddles with these values for copy protection, my program can be quickly enhanced to deal with this. > >b. How do you put this data BACK onto some other kind of media so that > an H89 (or H89 simulator) that may not actually have a hard-sector > controller, 5.25" disk drive, or physical 10-hard-sector disk can > use it? One can strip that data out by using a program to read the directories and reassemble the files into continuous streams ( not that hard to do. I've done this manually a couple of times ). If the data can be moved to some other type of media and still have meaning there ( in other words it doesn't depend on having 10 hard sectors ) there is nothing to stop one other than a little time since the data is there. I've not written a program to read files using the directory yet because I've not had a reason to. I'm only interested in archiving right now. See below for the next optional way. > >To put this in concrete terms: Suppose it is 20 years in the future. I >have saved all my H17 disks on a CDROM. I want to show my grandson what >it was like in the "good old days", and run my old bootable standalone >HDOS "Adventure" disk. > >Suppose I still have my H89, and manage to fix it up and get it working >(at least as far as the H: prompt). But all my 5.25" disks are bad or >lost. How do I get that H17 disk image from the CDROM onto a real H17 >disk? Take a blank disk ( or an old one you don't care about ) place it in the H89. Enter about 50 bytes of code for my bootstrap, using the H89 monitor. Start that program on the H89. Start my program on the PC and tell it to download the main program( a few seconds ). Tell it to down load the image file that you've save years ago with my program and in about 5 minutes, you will have a newly created disk that matches the original. You do need a working system at both ends and a 1-to-1 serial cable. Why do I keep getting the feeling that people are not reading my post? I'll give you the code for the PC side that can be redone on most any system that lets you send serial data. Even the new serial-less machines could have a USB-to-serial done. One could run it from a terminal program but it would be difficult and clumsy. I'm not a windows person but I'm sure someone could write this code if I wrote a spec for it. I do have an alternate motive here. For those that use it, I'd like them to send me images of their disks( not personal stuff ). I have some things already, like LISP and a Chess program but I'd love some other stuff. I have HDOS 2.0 and some older stuff as well. I do have a couple of 96 tpi disk but I've not configured my system with a 1.2M drive to try reading them to see what is there. Dwight > >Or, will I need an H89 simulator program that runs on whatever passes >for a PC in 20 years? Can it read and boot from that H17 disk image on >the CDROM? Does this program exist today, so I'd have a chance of >proving to myself today that these CDROM images can actually be used >again? This is not a simulator. It is just an archiving method. Anyone that wants could write a simulator and use the images. > >> I've been thinking about setting up a punch to make 10 sectored >> disk out of the pile of other floppies that I have... > >That is a good idea. Soft-sectored 5.25" disks are at least 100 times >easier to get than 10-hard-sectored. I suspect that there are so many >pieces of legacy equipment that still use them that even in 10-20 years >these soft-sector disks will still be available. [An aside: A friend of >mine just sold an 8" full-height floppy disk drive for $350 to a machine >tool company that needed it to repair an ancient DEC minicomputer that >runs a milling machine they still use] > >Or, if we can get a group buy of some NEW hard-sector disks; they should >have a reasonable chance of lasting another 10-20 years. > >If I seem paranoid about this, it's because I recently went through a >bit of a crisis cause by this sort of thing. TMSI sold microcontrollers >based on the RCA 1802. This is an extremely rugged microcomputer, widely >used in military and aerospace applications. The NASA Voyager spacecraft >used them. > >Today, the Voyagers are still working, still sending data from deep >space far beyond the orbit of Pluto. But due to budget cuts, layoffs, >equipment failures, and other problems, JPL has thrown out, lost, or >broken all their 1802 software development systems. Sure, they have >backup disks; 8" floppies, written in RCA's odd format that is >unreadable by other equipment. Sure, they wrote 1802 simulators; but >they had no way to test them to insure that they really did work >correctly. > >So, I was one of a chain of about a dozen people that pieced together a >working RCA development system, so we could read the disks. Then write >the simulator, and verify that it worked correctly. Then translate the >various RCA development tools (editor, assembler, debugger, etc.) so it >was possible to modify the Voyager code, test it, and then upload it to >the spacecraft with confidence that it would work. It was a major effort >that took a couple years. But the end result was to extend the useful >life of the spacecraft, allowing it to slow down its data rates and >conserve power to continue operation despite the staggering distances >and various on-board system degradations and faults. > >It's easy to assume that: > >a) If it works today, it will always work. >b) If it breaks, I will always be able to get parts for it. >c) If I can't, it won't be hard to substitute something I can get. >d) I'll always have the documentation. >e) Even if I lose it, it will be on the web somewhere. >f) Or my memory is good; I'll remember how it works. > >Microcomputers are turning out to be exceedingly fragile. Losing a page >out of a book, or a piece of a photograph isn't so bad; the rest is >still usable and you can often reconstruct the missing pieces. But if >anything is missing or wrong with a computer, the whole system is dead. >It can be very difficult to fix or salvage anything from them, unless an >effort is made to preserve EVERYTHING needed to maintain them. >-- >"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the >world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade >-- >Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net > > >-- >This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List > -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From waltm22 at comcast.net Fri Apr 2 15:17:32 2004 From: waltm22 at comcast.net (Walter Moore) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 13:17:32 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] hard-sectored disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c418f7$ed315b00$0700a8c0@walterp4> I myself would be interested in joining a group purchase of floppies. Having just discovered the HUG SY: driver disk on some floppies that came with a system I purchased, I will ask if they will work double sided and 96 tpi (Isn't this what Northstar called "Quad"?)? ..walt -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Fri Apr 2 21:31:05 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 19:31:05 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] hard-sectored disks References: <000201c418f7$ed315b00$0700a8c0@walterp4> Message-ID: <406E2FF9.3A30@earthlink.net> Walter Moore wrote: > > I myself would be interested in joining a group purchase of floppies. > Having just discovered the HUG SY: driver disk on some floppies that came > with a system I purchased, I will ask if they will work double sided and 96 > tpi (Isn't this what Northstar called "Quad"?)? The stock SY: driver that came with HDOS 1.4 and 2.0 only supported the H17 controller with single-sided 40-track hard-sectored disks. But I think someone (Ray Livingston? Peter Shkbara?) wrote an improved version that supported single/double sided and 40/80 track drives with the H17 controller. Certainly the SY: disk driver that came with HDOS 3.0 supported these formats. The HUG DK: driver handled the H37 disk controller for HDOS. It supported single/double sided, single/double density, and 40/80 track drives. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Fri Apr 2 20:46:05 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:46:05 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] hard-sectored disks In-Reply-To: <000201c418f7$ed315b00$0700a8c0@walterp4> Message-ID: > I myself would be interested in joining a group purchase of floppies. > Having just discovered the HUG SY: driver disk on some floppies that came > with a system I purchased, I will ask if they will work double > sided and 96 > tpi (Isn't this what Northstar called "Quad"?)? > > ..walt Walt, I have tested this, and it does work. And yes, that equivalent to North Star's "quad". --Patrick I have the SY: driver and a number of other HUG utilities that I will publish on ftp://ftp.staunch889er.com/pub over the weekend. Lee, I don't have that DK: driver you mentioned for the '37, but if you're willing to send it to me, I'll post it as well. Patrick -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Fri Apr 2 20:53:59 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:53:59 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] Offer to SEBHC Members Message-ID: How about this...? To all of you that have HUG disks (or disks from other user groups) laying around, I will send you THREE blank new hard-sectored diskettes, two for you to keep, and one for you to copy that HUG disk to and send back to me (I will include a SASE). Have four HUG disks? You can end up with eight shiny new disks. To avoid duplication, the first person to volunteer a volume gets it (waitlisters may get called upon anyway if there's a problem with the first person's disk). I will post daily a list of the volumes so far, and of course, as I get the copies returned I will make disk images available on the FTP site in both SVD and "Elvey Image" formats for everyone to use. Please email me off-list (patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com) with the volume numbers/names and your address as you find them. Patrick -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From paulpenn at knology.net Sat Apr 3 21:27:32 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul Pennington) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 22:27:32 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Magnolia References: Message-ID: <007d01c419f4$c483c0a0$6401a8c0@knology.net> "Patrick" said: > Paul, I've misplaced my 77316 installation guide. I know I have it, I just > don't know where it got off to (I recently moved my "lab" to another part of > the house, and taking something that's not at all organized and moving it > didn't improve it's character). > > If you've got a scan handy, I'd appreciate it... Sorry, no scanner here. Let me know if you can't find it and I'll run off a copy and mail it. Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com Mon Apr 5 09:45:24 2004 From: RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com (West, Ronald S.) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 10:45:24 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H-8 Repair Message-ID: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9B25@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> My good old H-8 is now alive and well. Had plugged in the zero org board wrong last time I played with it and blew one of the 18v supplies on the mother board. Pulled the thing apart this weekend and replaced both diodes. Both of which were a dead short. Must be why the lights dimmed when I turned the thing on. Man! Its been a very long time since I did any of that stuff. I had to search for everything. Went to the Shack and purchased a nice little stand for my soldering iron with the little sponge in it for cleaning the tip. Cost about $7.00. Not too bad. Now I can get working on the IDE port idea. Patrick - Can you give a location on that ftp site where the SY: driver will be? I would be interested in that too. Thanks, Ron -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Mon Apr 5 11:25:56 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:25:56 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] HUG Disks so far... Message-ID: Everyone, Here is the list of HUG disks that members have replied with so far. Walter and Eric, your disks will go out tomorrow. Thanks for your contribution! Please keep digging everyone, this is a great start, but there's a lot to fill in! Patrick ---- (sorry for the lack of formatting) Volume Vol Name First Person Standby 885-1010 Adventure Walter Moore Eric Rothfus 885-1067 Disk XI Graphics Games Disk Walter Moore 885-1068 Disk XII MBASIC Graphics Games Walter Moore 885-1093 DND Using MBASIC and HDOS (56K req) Walter Moore 885-1095 HUG SY: (HDOS 2.0, for DS-DD 96TPI hard sector) Walter Moore 885-1110 HUG Autofile (Z80 only) Walter Moore 885-1112 HDOS Graphics Games Walter Moore 885-1209 DND MBASIC-CP/M, 64K Walter Moore 885-1062A Disk VII - Miscellaneous Software Eric Rothfus 885-1062B Disk VIII - Miscellaneous Software Eric Rothfus 885-1069 Disk XIII H8/89 Miscellaneous Software Eric Rothfus 885-1078 HDOS Z80 Assembler Eric Rothfus 885-1116 HDOS Z80 Debugging Tool Eric Rothfus 885-1122 HDOS MicroNET Connection Eric Rothfus -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Tue Apr 6 08:31:02 2004 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 09:31:02 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] BUSS and REMark Message-ID: <1081211569@rothfus.com> As I know we're trying to establish complete runs SOMEWHERE, here are my holdings of BUSS and REMark: - BUSS - # 37 through #114 - missing #78 and #110 - REMark - March 1981 #15 through December 1983 #47 - January 1984 vol 5 # 1 - through September 1984 vol 5 # 9 Now that I look at the REMark numbers for 1981 through 1983, I'm wondering if I wrote down the right numbers when I went to storage last night. I would guess that Dec 1983 should be #48. I'll take a look again and see what's up. Eric -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Apr 6 09:13:00 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 09:13:00 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] BUSS and REMark In-Reply-To: <1081211569@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <000801c41be1$453c7c80$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> I'm not sure what the ending issues were, but I have both Sextant and REMark from Vol1:1 into the mid-80s, so the early issues are covered. I also have Staunch and SEBHC from Vol1:1; don't know exactly when Staunch ended (Kirk?); I have SEBHC up until the bitter end. My collection of BUSS seems to start with #14 and ends somewhere in the 100's. I also have several years of Z100 Lifelines from the period when Paul Herman was the editor as well as some later issues (approx #30-40) of The Z Line. I'm in the same situation as Eric - the magazines are in storage and I don't quite trust my written notes as to the end issues/dates, but I can check fairly easily. I _do_ know that I lack the earliest issues of BUSS. I can try to contact Becky Fale for permission to republish unless someone has already contacted her. Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at staunch89er.com [mailto:sebhc at staunch89er.com] On > Behalf Of Eric J. Rothfus > Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 8:31 AM > To: sebhc at staunch89er.com > Subject: [sebhc] BUSS and REMark > > > As I know we're trying to establish complete runs SOMEWHERE, > here are my holdings of BUSS and REMark: > > - BUSS - # 37 through #114 - missing #78 and #110 > - REMark - March 1981 #15 through December 1983 #47 > - January 1984 vol 5 # 1 - through September 1984 vol 5 # 9 > > Now that I look at the REMark numbers for 1981 through 1983, > I'm wondering if I wrote down the right numbers when I went > to storage last night. I would guess that Dec 1983 should be > #48. I'll take a look again and see what's up. > > Eric > > -- > This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List > sebhc-request at staunch89er.com. > -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Apr 7 16:40:50 2004 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 16:40:50 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Introduction. In-Reply-To: <1081211569@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040407163536.036b7c30@mail.ubanproductions.com> Hello All, I subscribed recently and thought that I would take a moment to introduce myself. I've been collecting various vintage gear for some time now and while my collection includes primarily a bunch of DEC PDP-11s, I do have a number of micros, including an H-89. I've had previous discussions with at least two people on this list, Patrick Rigney and Jack Rubin, and as I am also a member of the classiccmp mail list, I imagine that I will recognize others as well. Cheers! --tom -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From lifo at pacbell.net Wed Apr 7 18:55:01 2004 From: lifo at pacbell.net (Erik S. Klein) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 16:55:01 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] BUSS and REMark In-Reply-To: <1081211569@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <000501c41cfb$c03ed9d0$6e7ba8c0@p933> This probably doesn't count, but I have most issues of Z-100 lifeline from #1 to #72, or thereabouts. Hopefully it's not TOO far off topic! :) I may have some other related magazines (I've got thousands) but I'm not sure exactly what my inventory looks like at the moment. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at staunch89er.com [mailto:sebhc at staunch89er.com] On Behalf Of Eric J. Rothfus Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 6:31 AM To: sebhc at staunch89er.com Subject: [sebhc] BUSS and REMark As I know we're trying to establish complete runs SOMEWHERE, here are my holdings of BUSS and REMark: - BUSS - # 37 through #114 - missing #78 and #110 - REMark - March 1981 #15 through December 1983 #47 - January 1984 vol 5 # 1 - through September 1984 vol 5 # 9 Now that I look at the REMark numbers for 1981 through 1983, I'm wondering if I wrote down the right numbers when I went to storage last night. I would guess that Dec 1983 should be #48. I'll take a look again and see what's up. Eric -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Thu Apr 8 18:12:48 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:12:48 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Magnolia In-Reply-To: <007d01c419f4$c483c0a0$6401a8c0@knology.net> Message-ID: > > Paul, I've misplaced my 77316 installation guide. I know I have it, I > just > > don't know where it got off to (I recently moved my "lab" to > another part [snip] OK! The elusive 77316 installation guide has been found. In a rare moment of clarity, when I put the board into storage, I tucked the manual in the bag with the board and its related parts. Having retreived the package from storage this morning, I now have the following: Magnolia EPROM 444-84B dated Feb '83, "V-10". Another PROM labeled 444-61C. There's also a 4.7K resistor in the package, but I assume I only need this if I'm removing the hard-sectored controller. I will re-run the installation instructions and see what happens. Again, last time I did this (multiple tries), the Magnolia monitor prompt would come up, sometimes with garbage before, always with garbage after, not bootable. Close, but no banana. More to follow... Patrick -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Apr 10 18:00:20 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:00:20 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info Message-ID: <000001c41f4f$99a177f0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> There seem to be a fair number of folks interested in alternative interfaces or hardware mods for the H8. Anybody have manuals for the H8-7 breadboarding card or the the H8-10 wire wrap card? I'll be glad to scan and post if you have them. How about the Mullen extender? Would there be any interest in developing a new prototyping card based on the H8-10? Does anyone have any of these they would be willing to trade or sell? Bill P, Pat or Lee or any other hardware folks, do you have any layouts or drawings of prototyping cards? Jack -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sat Apr 10 20:53:10 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 21:53:10 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info In-Reply-To: <000001c41f4f$99a177f0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> References: <000001c41f4f$99a177f0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <4078A506.7000806@sc.rr.com> PS There might be interest in the H8-10. I do have 1 card left that I would trade for an H8-17 drive controller. A new H8-10 card would not be difficult to design, but it would be necessary to get a PCB house to create the board. I make a number of 2 sided printed circuit boards, but the largest blank board that I have found is 6 x 9. I use Positive Photo Resist boards. Just a little about myself, I am a retired IBM engineer. Retired after 30 years. I still like to build things. CEW Jack Rubin wrote: >There seem to be a fair number of folks interested in alternative >interfaces or hardware mods for the H8. Anybody have manuals for the >H8-7 breadboarding card or the the H8-10 wire wrap card? I'll be glad to >scan and post if you have them. > >How about the Mullen extender? > >Would there be any interest in developing a new prototyping card based >on the H8-10? > >Does anyone have any of these they would be willing to trade or sell? > >Bill P, Pat or Lee or any other hardware folks, do you have any layouts >or drawings of prototyping cards? > >Jack > >-- >This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List > > > -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sat Apr 10 20:34:19 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 21:34:19 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info In-Reply-To: <000001c41f4f$99a177f0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> References: <000001c41f4f$99a177f0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <4078A09B.7040100@sc.rr.com> I was just wire wrapping on the H8-10 this afternoon. I have a 1 page drawing (rather large) of the assembly for the H8-10. I also have a scanner, and would be glad to scan it and send it to you or anyone else. I'm planning to use the wire wrap for circuit debugging, and then create some new boards for the H8. Currently working on a 64K memory card. I have the old 64K board (I can't remember who made it, but it wasn't heath) that doesn't work. My first goal is to re-create the old H8-5 tape system. By the way, does anyone have the old CP/M boot diskette for the H8-17? Carroll Jack Rubin wrote: >There seem to be a fair number of folks interested in alternative >interfaces or hardware mods for the H8. Anybody have manuals for the >H8-7 breadboarding card or the the H8-10 wire wrap card? I'll be glad to >scan and post if you have them. > >How about the Mullen extender? > >Would there be any interest in developing a new prototyping card based >on the H8-10? > >Does anyone have any of these they would be willing to trade or sell? > >Bill P, Pat or Lee or any other hardware folks, do you have any layouts >or drawings of prototyping cards? > >Jack > >-- >This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List > > > -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Apr 10 22:40:45 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 22:40:45 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H8-10 In-Reply-To: <4078A09B.7040100@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <000401c41f76$c655f2e0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Carroll, I've got an H8-10 that is presently functioning as a 64K SRAM card with 2 32K x 8 chips on it and an upper/lower 32K select. I got it from a reseller who thought it was an "unfinished" project, but with a little cleaning, it fired right up. Since it's working, I'm not anxious to tear it down for copying, but it would be nice to have another one to work with! Obviously, a 2-chip board doesn't need to be "full size" and I expect most projects would fit on "half cards" like the XCON board or the Trionyx add-ons (though I've never actually seen any of the latter). Several of us have hard-sector CP/M systems up and running, either on H8s or H89s. I'll try to build you a set of disks in the next few days. Send me your mailing address (offlist, if you want). We also need to get Dwight Elvey's raw file transfer utility in place so it can be used to bootstrap systems - stay tuned for the SEBHC ftp site. Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at staunch89er.com [mailto:sebhc at staunch89er.com] On > Behalf Of Carroll Waddell > Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 8:34 PM > To: sebhc at staunch89er.com > Subject: Re: [sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info > > > I was just wire wrapping on the H8-10 this afternoon. I have a 1 page > drawing (rather large) of the assembly for the H8-10. I also have a > scanner, and would be glad to scan it and send it to you or > anyone else. > I'm planning to use the wire wrap for circuit debugging, and > then create > some new boards for the H8. Currently working on a 64K memory card. I > have the old 64K board (I can't remember who made it, but it wasn't > heath) that doesn't work. My first goal is to re-create the old H8-5 > tape system. By the way, does anyone have the old CP/M boot > diskette for > the H8-17? > Carroll > -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Sat Apr 10 23:27:42 2004 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 00:27:42 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info In-Reply-To: <000001c41f4f$99a177f0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> (jack.rubin@ameritech.net) References: <000001c41f4f$99a177f0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <1081635311@rothfus.com> Hey Jack, I have the manuals/schematics for the H8-7. I'll get those in the mail to you this week. I'd be willing to participate in any board-creation activities. I was actually thinking of turning my breadboarded memory into a real board...in my copious spare time... Eric -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From waltm22 at comcast.net Sat Apr 10 23:58:59 2004 From: waltm22 at comcast.net (Walter Moore) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 21:58:59 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info In-Reply-To: <1081635311@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <000001c41f81$b6f68cf0$0700a8c0@walterp4> I too have the H8-7 schematic, manual and pictorial. The "manual" for the H8-10 wire wrap card is pretty simple, coming in at one sheet (four pages). I don't recall ever seeing a schematic for it, I really doubt that they drew one. I have two copies, one stained (water damage or something) and one in excellent condition. The manual for the Mullen HTB-0 extender board is also very very simple. Do you want the registration card that came with it? I'm saddened to say that I never managed to solder the connectors onto mine, so it is very unused. Come to think of it, I never used the wire-wrap board or the breadboard. Someday, maybe... ..walt -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sun Apr 11 05:15:51 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 06:15:51 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8-10 In-Reply-To: <000401c41f76$c655f2e0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> References: <000401c41f76$c655f2e0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <40791AD7.9060608@sc.rr.com> Thanks a bunch. My address is: Carroll Waddell 2795 Raccoon Road Dalzell, SC 29040 Would you like a copy of the H8-10 instructions? Jack Rubin wrote: >Carroll, > >I've got an H8-10 that is presently functioning as a 64K SRAM card with >2 32K x 8 chips on it and an upper/lower 32K select. I got it from a >reseller who thought it was an "unfinished" project, but with a little >cleaning, it fired right up. Since it's working, I'm not anxious to tear >it down for copying, but it would be nice to have another one to work >with! > >Obviously, a 2-chip board doesn't need to be "full size" and I expect >most projects would fit on "half cards" like the XCON board or the >Trionyx add-ons (though I've never actually seen any of the latter). > >Several of us have hard-sector CP/M systems up and running, either on >H8s or H89s. I'll try to build you a set of disks in the next few days. >Send me your mailing address (offlist, if you want). We also need to get >Dwight Elvey's raw file transfer utility in place so it can be used to >bootstrap systems - stay tuned for the SEBHC ftp site. > >Jack > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: sebhc at staunch89er.com [mailto:sebhc at staunch89er.com] On >>Behalf Of Carroll Waddell >>Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 8:34 PM >>To: sebhc at staunch89er.com >>Subject: Re: [sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info >> >> >>I was just wire wrapping on the H8-10 this afternoon. I have a 1 page >>drawing (rather large) of the assembly for the H8-10. I also have a >>scanner, and would be glad to scan it and send it to you or >>anyone else. >>I'm planning to use the wire wrap for circuit debugging, and >>then create >>some new boards for the H8. Currently working on a 64K memory card. I >>have the old 64K board (I can't remember who made it, but it wasn't >>heath) that doesn't work. My first goal is to re-create the old H8-5 >>tape system. By the way, does anyone have the old CP/M boot >>diskette for >>the H8-17? >>Carroll >> >> >> > >-- >This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List > > > From leeahart at earthlink.net Sun Apr 11 14:12:41 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:12:41 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info References: <000001c41f4f$99a177f0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> <1081635311@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <407998A9.145@earthlink.net> Eric J. Rothfus wrote: > I'd be willing to participate in any board-creation activities. This makes me wonder. I used to have an H8, but sold it long ago. Now all I have are H89s. It's a fine computer, but much less hacker-friendly than the H8. I often get nostalgic for my ol' H8. A couple months ago, I stumbled across the original January 1975 Popular Electronics article on the MITS Altair 8800. In my humble opinion, this was the "hole in the dike" that started the flood of home computers. It was a "real" computer; not a trainer or toy. It was cheap; only $350 in kit form, under $100 if you bought the parts yourself and made your own boards (the article had the schematics, parts lists, and board layouts were free!). Now, in reality, the 8800 was a *terrible* design, loaded with bugs and with no software and no hardware available to actually *do* any of the things it promised. Nevertheless, THOUSANDS of people bought them and built them, and an entire industry grew up making hardware and software to actually deliver on the promise of the Altair 8800. Bill Gates got his start writing BASIC for this computer, and the Zenith Z-100 came out of its design. Now, looking at that old article, and looking at the prices that an Altair 8800 inspires on Ebay, I got to wondering if one could build a *new* version of it. I updated the design a bit, to correct the bugs and to use modern ICs that we can get today. I added up the price list, and amazingly, the total cost for all the parts and PC boards (less cabinet) is well under $100. (The cabinet alone is about $150). But after talking it over with people on the comp.os.cpm list, I decided such a project didn't make sense. It would be a copy, not an original, and so of no interest to collectors. It would still have most of the design bugs and limitations, and so not be useful for any kind of 'real' computing. So, I shelved the idea. But... To me, the Heath H8 was the Altair 8800 done *right*. It really worked. It really did have all the hardware and software to make it a *real* computer, capable of doing useful work. The manuals were great! Anyone who could read could build it. The design "bugs" were relatively few, and fixes for them well-known (gold-plated bus connectors, 0-org, Z80 CPU, etc). So... would it make sense to build a *new* H8 kit? Update the design to include all the basic fixes, and use modern parts (74HC instead 74LS, Z80 instead of 8080, modern bytewide memories, etc.). As for the 8800, I suspect that if I added up all the parts, they would cost under $100. The cabinet is the only really expensive part. What would you do for it? Substitute something cheap and easy to buy and/or make, but that doesn't look anything like the original? Or spend the extra money to somehow tool up or build something very much like the original? What do you folks think? -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From waltm22 at comcast.net Sun Apr 11 12:26:27 2004 From: waltm22 at comcast.net (Walter Moore) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 10:26:27 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] H8-10 In-Reply-To: <000401c41f76$c655f2e0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <000001c41fea$22c1efc0$0700a8c0@walterp4> Do I assume correctly that you want an unused H8-10 to copy to make more boards? I have two unused boards, but they do have the edge connectors on them. I could spend some time at the de-solder station and probably get the connectors off. I could let one go for a while. How about the Mullen's extender board? I never put the edge connectors on mine, so that would be even less work. Once again, I could let it go for a while if the goal it to make more. I could just package it up with some of the manuals you wanted to scan (I have them all, save on postage). Let me know. ..walt -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at staunch89er.com [mailto:sebhc at staunch89er.com] On Behalf Of Jack Rubin Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 8:41 PM To: sebhc at staunch89er.com Subject: [sebhc] H8-10 ... Since it's working, I'm not anxious to tear it down for copying, but it would be nice to have another one to work with! ... -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun Apr 11 13:15:34 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 13:15:34 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H8-10 In-Reply-To: <000001c41fea$22c1efc0$0700a8c0@walterp4> Message-ID: <000001c41ff0$fc18c3b0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> That would be great - send what you can when you can and I will turn them around right away. Thanks - Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at staunch89er.com [mailto:sebhc at staunch89er.com] On > Behalf Of Walter Moore > Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 12:26 PM > To: sebhc at staunch89er.com > Subject: RE: [sebhc] H8-10 > > > Do I assume correctly that you want an unused H8-10 to copy > to make more boards? I have two unused boards, but they do > have the edge connectors on them. I could spend some time at > the de-solder station and probably get the connectors off. I > could let one go for a while. > > How about the Mullen's extender board? I never put the edge > connectors on mine, so that would be even less work. Once > again, I could let it go for a while if the goal it to make more. > > I could just package it up with some of the manuals you > wanted to scan (I have them all, save on postage). Let me know. > > ..walt > > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at staunch89er.com [mailto:sebhc at staunch89er.com] On > Behalf Of Jack Rubin > Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 8:41 PM > To: sebhc at staunch89er.com > Subject: [sebhc] H8-10 > > ... Since it's working, I'm not anxious to tear it down for > copying, but it would be nice to have another one to work with! ... > > > > > > -- > This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List > sebhc-request at staunch89er.com. > -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sun Apr 11 19:08:20 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 20:08:20 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8-17 Message-ID: <4079DDF4.7010509@sc.rr.com> I am looking for an H8-17 disk controller and also for the Heath H8 end card connectors (the 2 25 pin sockets). Does anyone have a board that they would part with? Carroll Waddell -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun Apr 11 21:37:47 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 21:37:47 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H8 recreation/follow on In-Reply-To: <407998A9.145@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000001c42037$249b1590$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> > But... > > To me, the Heath H8 was the Altair 8800 done *right*. It > really worked. It really did have all the hardware and > software to make it a *real* computer, capable of doing > useful work. The manuals were great! Anyone who could read > could build it. The design "bugs" were relatively few, and > fixes for them well-known (gold-plated bus connectors, 0-org, > Z80 CPU, etc). > > So... would it make sense to build a *new* H8 kit? Update the > design to include all the basic fixes, and use modern parts > (74HC instead 74LS, Z80 instead of 8080, modern bytewide > memories, etc.). Lee, I think you left out a few other items - a decent motherboard with a good ground plane and active termination, and a switching power supply with regulated output and no on-board regulators - but your point is well taken. My reaction is that I'd like to see more of what we're starting to talk about here - modern, low power solutions to replace rare or unreliable components, but staying with an original chassis. Not too sure how I feel about a full replacement, but I would definitely be interested in byte-wide SRAM (running it now), IDE, high-speed serial output and networking capability (wanna write a TCP/IP stack for HDOS? - actually I think arcnet might be a good fit here). We have a chance to exercise both our collective design/validation skills and our collective buying power. Of course it becomes like George Washington's axe - the handle has been replaced 10 times and the head 12 times but it's still the original axe. Somehow something is lost when an emulation - hardware or software - is used. I don't know what the difference is, but it's real. Kind of like automotive replicas - there are some real nice Cobra and GT40 kits out there, but they just aren't the same, even though they may outperform the "real" item. What the heck - the whole machine could probably be replicated in a Xilinix FPGA, but if you had the original front panel, it would still feel the same. I know that a big part of the appeal of this old stuff for me is the (perhaps false) belief that I can get my arms/head around most of what's there with discrete logic, a 1 MHz clock and non-segmented memory. I'm just barely an electronics hobbyist, not an EE. I don't feel that way about modern stuff. Kind of the Peter principle of electronics - I've risen to my highest level of incompetence; let me poke around at this level for a while and maybe I can move on to 16 bits! And don't forget the collecting aspect for many of us - there's real excitement in the hunt for information and artifacts. My 2 ohms worth! Jack -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Apr 11 21:53:06 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 19:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info In-Reply-To: <407998A9.145@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > include all the basic fixes, and use modern parts (74HC instead 74LS, > Z80 instead of 8080, modern bytewide memories, etc.). > I'd love this myself. I've never had a real opportunity to build a computer from scratch along the lines of a Heatkit product. Sell me a board and a parts list and I'd be all over it. g. -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Apr 12 07:37:41 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 08:37:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info Message-ID: <20040412123741.DBF39B4942@outbox.allstream.net> >A couple months ago, I stumbled across the original January 1975 Popular >Electronics article on the MITS Altair 8800. In my humble opinion, this >was the "hole in the dike" that started the flood of home computers. It >was a "real" computer; not a trainer or toy. It was cheap; only $350 in >kit form, under $100 if you bought the parts yourself and made your own >boards (the article had the schematics, parts lists, and board layouts >were free!). > >Now, in reality, the 8800 was a *terrible* design, loaded with bugs and >with no software and no hardware available to actually *do* any of the >things it promised. Nevertheless, THOUSANDS of people bought them and >built them, and an entire industry grew up making hardware and software >to actually deliver on the promise of the Altair 8800. Bill Gates got >his start writing BASIC for this computer, and the Zenith Z-100 came out >of its design. I'd have to disagree with you on "terrible", like the first of anything, there is always room for improvement, however after 29 years, my 8800 is still ticking. It has always run reliably (lots of hours on it too), the front panel has always worked correctly, in short it has functioned as expected. I think twice over the years I have had to clean a bit of corrosion out of some of the socketed IC's on various cards, and once I had to resolder some of the wires to the CPU front panel connector when I flexed them a bit too much, (Still using original MITS REV .0 8080 CPU card) but other than that it has been a most reliable machine. I've had plenty of PeeCee's which have given up the ghost after much less time. Lack of add-on hardware and software? This does not reflect "terrible" design, only the fact that it was the first system of it's type and there was no industry of supporting material - in fact, the Altair essentually started the industry as it defined the S-100 bus and made the 8080 CPU available at low cost, both of these factors contributed to the standardization of hardware and software in the "personal computer" field. How exactly did you expect a support industry to have developed before the machine (or the defacto standards it represented) became available? Yes! I am an Altair fan - I've put many many hours on mine, and did a lot of my early development on it. (Btw, I Will be posting a page within the next few weeks which will contain a LOT of defailed information on my 8800). Btw2, you might want to check the 1975 list price on the Intel 8080 CPU before sending that $100 through the time machine :-) >Now, looking at that old article, and looking at the prices that an >Altair 8800 inspires on Ebay, I got to wondering if one could build a >*new* version of it. I updated the design a bit, to correct the bugs and >to use modern ICs that we can get today. I added up the price list, and >amazingly, the total cost for all the parts and PC boards (less cabinet) >is well under $100. (The cabinet alone is about $150). Have you seen the Series-2 IMSAI? They've done pretty much exactly this with the IMSAI machine (Although I shudder at their discussion on putting ATX boards in the case). http://www.imsai.net/products/imsai_series_two.htm >To me, the Heath H8 was the Altair 8800 done *right*. It really worked. >It really did have all the hardware and software to make it a *real* >computer, capable of doing useful work. The manuals were great! Anyone >who could read could build it. The design "bugs" were relatively few, >and fixes for them well-known (gold-plated bus connectors, 0-org, Z80 >CPU, etc). Funny how different people have different perceptions... My Altair has "worked" from the very beginning, and continues to do so today. I developed a great deal of software on that machine. Granted that Heathkit had much more experience in writing manuals for "build it yourselfers", however I don't think the Altair documents are bad. Two years later did wonders for the H8 software base as well... I've only recently acquired an H8, so I have not yet formed a real opinion on it. It too looks like a nice machine, and one I would have been equally happy to have back in the early days. So far I have been unable to find copies of any of the cassette software that was distributed with it (I have the manuals), so I haven't really seen it do anything other than poke around with the front panel. At some point I would like to port some of my 8080 code (written on the Altair :-) over to it... (It would really help if I could find a disk controller). I expect that with either machine there are/were good ones and bad ones - given the home assembly nature, there would be a lot of variability in the quality of construction... >So... would it make sense to build a *new* H8 kit? Update the design to >include all the basic fixes, and use modern parts (74HC instead 74LS, >Z80 instead of 8080, modern bytewide memories, etc.). > >As for the 8800, I suspect that if I added up all the parts, they would >cost under $100. The cabinet is the only really expensive part. What >would you do for it? Substitute something cheap and easy to buy and/or >make, but that doesn't look anything like the original? Or spend the >extra money to somehow tool up or build something very much like the >original? I wouldn't bother with a "cheap and easy" cabinet - if you are going to make a replica, do a real replica. I also wouldn't "update the design" to new devices unless you have to for availability reasons. In the face of low-cost PC's with gigabytes of memory and 1000's of off the shelf programs on one end, and flash progammable single-chip devices on the other (for the simple/control stuff), I doubt there will be very many people who would want such a system to actually USE it - remaining true to the original would be more important to me. A good replica can be the "next best thing" to an original, especially if you can get the original builder on-board to "certify" the design. There's something about having the physical box that you just can't get from a simulator. I think there would be some market for them, but it would be fairly small (I wouldn't expect to make any money on the project). Unfortunately a lot of the original parts have become unobtainium now, and the further you remove the replica from the original, the less interesting it becomes. There's also the issue of software. Unless you can get rights to the original code, you would have to provide your own software base for a replica. I have a lot of code from that time period including OS, Basic, Editor, Assembler, Debugger, compilers etc. that I would be happy to make available. A fair bit of CP/M and related material is also available now. It would just be a matter of time and effort to make it happen! Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Apr 12 11:43:01 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 12:43:01 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8-5 Message-ID: <407AC715.9070305@sc.rr.com> Does anyone have an H8-5 or H8-4 that they would be willing to sell? CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Apr 12 11:56:07 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 11:56:07 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H8-5 In-Reply-To: <407AC715.9070305@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <000901c420af$0cb7e340$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> I've got an H8-5 that I would trade for an H8-10 prototype board (or H8-7 breadboard, second choice) > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at staunch89er.com [mailto:sebhc at staunch89er.com] On > Behalf Of Carroll Waddell > Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 11:43 AM > To: sebhc at staunch89er.com > Subject: [sebhc] H8-5 > > > Does anyone have an H8-5 or H8-4 that they would be willing > to sell? CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com > > -- > This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List > sebhc-request at staunch89er.com. > -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Mon Apr 12 12:28:27 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:28:27 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info In-Reply-To: <4078A506.7000806@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: > PS There might be interest in the H8-10. I do have 1 card left that I > would trade for an H8-17 drive controller. > A new H8-10 card would not be difficult to design, but it would be > necessary to get a PCB house to create the board. I make a number of 2 > sided printed circuit boards, but the largest blank board that I have > found is 6 x 9. I use Positive Photo Resist boards. Carroll, I've had pretty good luck with ExpressPCB (.com) for simple designs, and I think this would qualify. They give you schematic capture and layout software as well (free, not great, but you don't have to spend $$$ on Eagle or whatever if you're just trying to get a small design done for hobby stuff). They do quantity discounts. Also, as an aside but somewhat related, I've done a few things with emachineshop.com for cases, bezels, and other metalware (they also do plastics and cardboard). Patrick -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Mon Apr 12 14:35:24 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 12:35:24 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info References: <20040412123741.DBF39B4942@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <407AEF7C.4055@earthlink.net> >> Now, in reality, the 8800 was a *terrible* design... Dave Dunfield wrote: > I'd have to disagree with you on "terrible", like the first of > anything, there is always room for improvement, however after > 29 years, my 8800 is still ticking. It has always run reliably > (lots of hours on it too), the front panel has always worked > correctly, in short it has functioned as expected. I'm glad to hear it! It says you are a better technician than I was! For me, an engineer fresh out of college with little practical experience, the Altair 8800 was too difficult to get working. It wasn't until several years later that I was finally able to get my S-100 system working, mainly by using later S-100 boards from vendors other than MITS whose boards had better documentation and actually worked as delivered without a lot of tinkering and troubleshooting. As in all things, "great" and "terrible" are relative to what you compare them to. The Ford model T was a "great" car in 1904, and a "terrible" car in 2004. However, there is no denying that there is also an absolute sense of good and bad. Good music, good painting, or good design stands out, regardless of the years or to what it is compared. The Altair struck me (and many others, I think) as a diamond in the rough; a truly great design, but flawed in its implementation. It was the flaws that got in my way of making it really shine. Others, like you, managed to work around them. > Lack of add-on hardware and software? This does not reflect > "terrible" design, only the fact that it was the first system of > it's type and there was no industry of supporting material I agree. Even I could see that the peripherals didn't exist at first, but the potential to *add* them was in the original design. There were lots of computer trainers at the time, but they had very limited expansion capability. With the Altair 8800, I could imagine adding very large amounts of memory, or elaborate I/O. In other words, the design *inspired* me to do more. > How exactly did you expect a support industry to have developed > before the machine (or the defacto standards it represented) > became available? A truly great design inspires others to copy it, and improve upon it. The Altair 8800 did this. I *knew* that there would be 64k memory boards, and floppy disk drives, and CRT terminals. > Have you seen the Series-2 IMSAI? Yes. But I think they have taken a wrong turn. It's a lovely, powerful machine. But it's very expensive and complicated, and still can't compete with modern PCs. >> To me, the Heath H8 was the Altair 8800 done *right*. > Funny how different people have different perceptions... My Altair > has "worked" from the very beginning, and continues to do so today. The Altair 8800 was *hard* to assemble. It had *hundreds* of loose wires connecting the boards. All those toggle switches were hand-wired. There were one-shots to adjust. The S-100 bus was poorly designed and had problems like an inadequate number of power and ground traces. The board layouts were bad, with not enough bypass capacitors, jumper wires and tacked-on fixes. You had to program it in binary. All of these can be dealt with by a skilled technician; but they are major roadblocks to a beginner. The H8 is basically the same machine, but repackaged to make it far easier to build and use. As usual, Heath did a great job of writing the manuals so even a beginner could build it. The design was far cleaner; it probably took 10% of the time to build. The front panel was octal instead of binary, which was easier to learn. I think the H8 bus is better designed, so it is much easier to add memory or I/O boards. >> So... would it make sense to build a *new* H8 kit? > I wouldn't bother with a "cheap and easy" cabinet - if you are > going to make a replica, do a real replica. The cabinet of the Altair is a generic off-the-shelf Optima enclosure. It is still available today. But the H8 case used custom molded plastic and custom sheet metal. It would be very expensive to duplicate it today unless it was worth paying the thousands of dollars to tool up these parts. I doubt that there is enough of a market to bother. So, I'm looking for a work-around. Also, any cabinet is expensive. When I was a hobbyist, I would buy the bare boards, and then make/scrounge my own cabinet. This would often save me considerable money. > I also wouldn't "update the design" to new devices unless you have > to for availability reasons. Heath was great at using generic parts, so virtually all the electronic components are still available today. However, many of those parts were used because they HAD to -- better parts weren't available then. But they are now. Why use eight 4Kx1 RAMs when you can get a single 4Kx8 bytewide RAM? Why use noisy high-power TTL when you can get quiet low-power HC? > I doubt there will be very many people who would want such a system > to actually USE it - remaining true to the original would be more > important to me. Today's PCs are no longer "Personal Computers" -- they are appliances; inscrutible boxes that no one builds, no one programs, no one understands. Everyone has to start at the bottom and work their way up. You learn to ride a bicycle before a motorcycle. You fly a model airplane before a real one. And to really learn about electronics and computers, you have to start with something simple enough so you can truly understand it. If we expect today's kids to grow up to be tomorrow's computer designers, they need a way to get started on that long ladder up. The old Altair 8800, and H8, and other old computers gave us that ladder. Sure, they were "toys" by modern standards -- but we sure had a lot of fun (and learned a lot) playing with those toys! > There's something about having the physical box that you just can't > get from a simulator. Exactly! Any teacher can tell you that you learn best when all your senses get involved; sight, hearing, touch. Just as you can't learn to play baseball from a GameBoy, you can't learn to design, build, and program computers from simulations. > there would be some market for them, but it would be fairly small > (I wouldn't expect to make any money on the project). And I don't. My thought is an 'open source' design, that anyone can download and copy freely. Offer bare boards, or parts kits, or maybe even a complete kit if the market is there, but keep them reasonably priced. The whole point is to get people building, and learning, and having fun with computers again. > There's also the issue of software. Unless you can get rights to > the original code, you would have to provide your own software base > for a replica. There is *so* much code out there for the 8080/Z80 that I don't think it would be any problem. You'd have to avoid Microsoft products, but there are dozens of alternatives that are public domain. I for one would be happy to donate any code I wrote to such a project that is to help people learn and have fun! -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Apr 12 12:51:48 2004 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 12:51:48 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info In-Reply-To: References: <4078A506.7000806@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040412124931.03409970@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 10:28 AM 4/12/2004 -0700, you wrote: > > PS There might be interest in the H8-10. I do have 1 card left that I > > would trade for an H8-17 drive controller. > > A new H8-10 card would not be difficult to design, but it would be > > necessary to get a PCB house to create the board. I make a number of 2 > > sided printed circuit boards, but the largest blank board that I have > > found is 6 x 9. I use Positive Photo Resist boards. > >Carroll, I've had pretty good luck with ExpressPCB (.com) for simple >designs, and I think this would qualify. They give you schematic capture >and layout software as well (free, not great, but you don't have to spend >$$$ on Eagle or whatever if you're just trying to get a small design done >for hobby stuff). They do quantity discounts. I've used ExpressPCB as well and they are quite reasonable for small prototype one-off projects. Although I already have the Eagle layout tools, the ExpressPCB tools are trivial to use. >Also, as an aside but somewhat related, I've done a few things with >emachineshop.com for cases, bezels, and other metalware (they also do >plastics and cardboard). I'm curious about your emachineshop.com experiences. Do you have any pics of what you've had done with related costs? --tom -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Apr 12 15:33:02 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:33:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info Message-ID: <20040412203302.067DA1EC3F4@outbox.allstream.net> >The Altair struck me (and many others, I think) as a diamond in the >rough; a truly great design, but flawed in its implementation. It was >the flaws that got in my way of making it really shine. Others, like >you, managed to work around them. >The Altair 8800 was *hard* to assemble. It had *hundreds* of loose wires >connecting the boards. All those toggle switches were hand-wired. There >were one-shots to adjust. The S-100 bus was poorly designed and had >problems like an inadequate number of power and ground traces. The board >layouts were bad, with not enough bypass capacitors, jumper wires and >tacked-on fixes. You had to program it in binary. All of these can be >dealt with by a skilled technician; but they are major roadblocks to a >beginner. I am reminded of a quote... I've forgotten the exact source, but it was from one of the early people in aviation, and it goes something like: "people look back at our designs and say they were impractical... but you have one big advantage in looking back... You KNOW what an airplane is supposed to look like - we did not". MITS had no idea what a personal computer should look like - the Altair is more like a minicomputer of the day. Lights, switches and bootstrapping by manually loading binary code were how computers of the day worked, Ed and company drew on their own experiences and information at hand. Was it the "ultimate personal computer" - definately not. Was it the best it could have been - nope. Was there room for improvement - plenty. But does it warrent the title "terrible" - I don't think so, it worked as expected, and was a lot more practical than anything else available in 1975. Thats the only point I wish to make. >The H8 is basically the same machine, but repackaged to make it far >easier to build and use. As usual, Heath did a great job of writing the >manuals so even a beginner could build it. The design was far cleaner; >it probably took 10% of the time to build. The front panel was octal >instead of binary, which was easier to learn. I think the H8 bus is >better designed, so it is much easier to add memory or I/O boards. My Altair came on the heels of several homebuilt wire-wrap computers, including one that even *looked* like the Altair - complete with front panel and switches. (how I wish I had kept that one - or at least a photo of it). At least the Altair had printed circuit boards - Coming from this background, the Altair made a lot of sense. Those wanting an off-the-shelf packaged appliance computer should have waited for the TRS-80 or Apple - the industry was just not ready to provide that yet. Yes, the H8 came closer two years later - but a couple of years after that you could by an off-the-shelf system that you didn't have to build, with BASIC in ROM and/or a boot disk --- does this imply that the H8 was a bad design... nope, just at a different point on a very rapidly moving timeline. Btw, the Altair front panel was laid out in octal grouping - this was natural for the 8080 CPU chip, although coming from a mainframe background I have always preferred and worked in hex. >> Have you seen the Series-2 IMSAI? > >Yes. But I think they have taken a wrong turn. It's a lovely, powerful >machine. But it's very expensive and complicated, and still can't >compete with modern PCs. Agreed - although I don't think the point is to compete with modern PC's. (Thats why I dislike the notion of putting an ATX mainboard in it). > ... Why use noisy high-power TTL when you can get quiet low-power HC? Why do die-hard large scale model railroaders use "live steam" when they could just tuck in a weed-wacker motor. To try and present as close an approximation to the original and environment design as possible. This is because their goal is to preserve the era of live steam - not to build a better more modern locomotive. Same is true for replica computers - otherwise all you really have is a simulator in a box. >Today's PCs are no longer "Personal Computers" -- they are appliances; >inscrutible boxes that no one builds, no one programs, no one >understands. > >Everyone has to start at the bottom and work their way up. You learn to >ride a bicycle before a motorcycle. You fly a model airplane before a >real one. And to really learn about electronics and computers, you have >to start with something simple enough so you can truly understand it. > >If we expect today's kids to grow up to be tomorrow's computer >designers, they need a way to get started on that long ladder up. The >old Altair 8800, and H8, and other old computers gave us that ladder. >Sure, they were "toys" by modern standards -- but we sure had a lot of >fun (and learned a lot) playing with those toys! Excellent sentiments, and ones that I share, however as I have been fairly active in promoting "back to the basics" computer education for kids, I can tell you it ain't goint to happen. Schools are turning out "applicance operators", and that is exactly what 99% of the world wants. (ie: where the money is). For a while I ran a small "computer club" at out local school. I recall the first time I took in my Altair and set it up, proudly giving a demonstration of what "personal computing" was like in days gone by - The very first question asked was "Why did anyone ever want a computer that wasn't any good?" Kids are used to "video games" (even when they are called "operating systems"), and in my opinion, an H8 or Altair simply isn't going to hold their interest long enough for them to absorb any of the really good stuff that we learned. So, I've taken a different approach, I use microcontrollers, robots, gadgets and things that move and talk to keep kids interested. Essentially allowing them to do things they can't do with a PC. Building a robot that can follow a beam of light gives em a lot more low level skills than writing a visual basic control for a web page... As for the early machines.. I am actively collecting, repairing and preserving as much of the original material as I can. >My thought is an 'open source' design, that anyone can >download and copy freely. Offer bare boards, or parts kits, or maybe >even a complete kit if the market is there, but keep them reasonably >priced. The whole point is to get people building, and learning, and >having fun with computers again. I like this idea - that way the individual can decide if he wants to build a detailed model, or just a work-alike machine. finally: Just to get this back on subject - it's clear that I need to spend some "quality time" with my H8. One of my immediate goals is to be able to check out the machine, and also to complete the original set of materials that would have been distributed with it. For this reason, I REALLY would like to find copies of the original software: Here's the original request I posted to the classic computers mailing list, if anyone can help provide copies of this material, I would appreciate it very much. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, I've recently acquired a Heathkit H8, however I did not receive the original software. I do have documentation for the following packages, which all appear to be original Heathkit distributions on cassette tape: BUG-8 Console Debugger TED-8 Text Editor HASL-8 Assembly Language package Benton Harbor BASIC / Extended Benton Harbor BASIC I'm looking for copies of the software. I'd love to obtain original Heathkit tapes, however I would be happy just to obtain the binaries or even audio recordings of the tapes. If anyone can help, please contact me - thanks in advance. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'd also REALLY like to locate a disk controller for it - An original Heath board would be ideal, but I'd be "almost as happy" with a working replica. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From paulpenn at knology.net Mon Apr 12 17:19:35 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul Pennington) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 18:19:35 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Optima Case for Altair References: <20040412123741.DBF39B4942@outbox.allstream.net> <407AEF7C.4055@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <006201c420dc$3ce12ae0$6401a8c0@knology.net> Lee Hart said: > The cabinet of the Altair is a generic off-the-shelf Optima enclosure. > It is still available today. Can you tell me who carries the Optima line? Digi-Key doesn't. Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From robert at ameritech.net Mon Apr 12 23:08:06 2004 From: robert at ameritech.net (His Excellency, Robert) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 00:08:06 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Optima Case for Altair In-Reply-To: <006201c420dc$3ce12ae0$6401a8c0@knology.net> References: <20040412123741.DBF39B4942@outbox.allstream.net> <407AEF7C.4055@earthlink.net> <006201c420dc$3ce12ae0$6401a8c0@knology.net> Message-ID: <407B67A6.9040504@ameritech.net> Hello, not sure if the "Altair" type cabinet is still made, or who retails the product, but here's the latest info I found..... About Optima EPS Optima EPS is a leading designer and manufacturer of electronic cabinets. Optima serves leading electronic and communications OEMs throughout North America. The company?s products, whether custom, modified-standard or standard design, are manufactured to meet customer specifications. Optima EPS is located at 2166 Mountain Industrial Blvd. Tucker, GA 30084-5088 Tel: (770) 496-4000 Fax: (770) 496-4041 www.optimaeps.com Bob Weir robert at ameritech.net Paul Pennington wrote: >Lee Hart said: > > > >>The cabinet of the Altair is a generic off-the-shelf Optima enclosure. >>It is still available today. >> >> > > Can you tell me who carries the Optima line? Digi-Key doesn't. > > Paul Pennington > Augusta, Georgia > >-- >This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List > > > From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Apr 12 23:37:00 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:37:00 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H8 firmware request (forwarded non-member message) In-Reply-To: <000a01c42110$b422cf30$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <000b01c42110$f7a81e40$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Steven (or anyone else) - what are the PROM equivalents for the various ROMs? Jack > > From: "Steven Parker" > > Hi, I'm a new subscriber to this list. I used to work at > Heathkit, wrote > articles for HUG, developed several HDOS software items, and was the > designer of the H-8-37 Z-80 upgrade (and author of PAM-37 - > you'll find my > name imbedded in the high end of the address space). > > Ironically, I never got an H-8-37 for myself. Could anyone > who has one > > send me a dump of the PAM-37 ROM? While I'm at it, does > anyone have dumps > handy for PAM-8, PAM8GO, or the H-17 ROMs? Any help would be > appreciated. > > > -- > This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List > sebhc-request at staunch89er.com. > -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Apr 12 23:35:09 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:35:09 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H8 firmware request (forwarded non-member message) Message-ID: <000a01c42110$b422cf30$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> From: "Steven Parker" Hi, I'm a new subscriber to this list. I used to work at Heathkit, wrote articles for HUG, developed several HDOS software items, and was the designer of the H-8-37 Z-80 upgrade (and author of PAM-37 - you'll find my name imbedded in the high end of the address space). Ironically, I never got an H-8-37 for myself. Could anyone who has one send me a dump of the PAM-37 ROM? While I'm at it, does anyone have dumps handy for PAM-8, PAM8GO, or the H-17 ROMs? Any help would be appreciated. -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 13 01:48:04 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 06:48:04 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] RE: H8 firmware request Message-ID: Jack's forwarded copy of my message was lacking my email address. This one should have it. - Steven _________________________________________________________________ Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is protected and safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Apr 13 07:16:28 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 07:16:28 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H8 tapes for Dave - archiving tapes? In-Reply-To: <20040412203302.067DA1EC3F4@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <003b01c42151$264aa430$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> > Hi, I've recently acquired a Heathkit H8, however I did not > receive the original software. I do have documentation for > the following packages, which all appear to be original > Heathkit distributions on cassette tape: > > BUG-8 Console Debugger > TED-8 Text Editor > HASL-8 Assembly Language package > Benton Harbor BASIC / Extended Benton Harbor BASIC > > I'm looking for copies of the software. I'd love to obtain > original Heathkit tapes, however I would be happy just to > obtain the binaries or even audio recordings of the tapes. Dave, I've got some (vintage) copies I can send you - please send me a mailing address (on or offlist) and I'll put them in the mail when the tax crazies get out of the post office. I've tried to read one or two of the tapes that came with this batch - there is definitely a signal on the tape but the adhesive that holds the tape on the spindle is dried up and the tapes just flop off the end. They can be easily repaired with a little Scotch tape. My tape card (H8-5) didn't seem to react at all and I shelved the project for other things; I'd be interested in your ideas about preserving the info on the tapes - I've saved .wav files of various other tapes (SWTPc and ProcTech) but I've never had the means or need to try to retrieve the info. Input from anyone else on best practices for audio tape archiving would be appreciated. Jack > > I'd also REALLY like to locate a disk controller for it - An > original Heath board would be ideal, but I'd be "almost as > happy" with a working replica. > -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Apr 13 07:36:51 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 08:36:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 tapes for Dave - archiving tapes? Message-ID: <20040413123651.4F2A4B4836@outbox.allstream.net> At 07:16 13/04/2004 -0500, you wrote: >> Hi, I've recently acquired a Heathkit H8, however I did not >> receive the original software. I do have documentation for >> the following packages, which all appear to be original >> Heathkit distributions on cassette tape: >> >> BUG-8 Console Debugger >> TED-8 Text Editor >> HASL-8 Assembly Language package >> Benton Harbor BASIC / Extended Benton Harbor BASIC >> >> I'm looking for copies of the software. I'd love to obtain >> original Heathkit tapes, however I would be happy just to >> obtain the binaries or even audio recordings of the tapes. > >Dave, I've got some (vintage) copies I can send you - please send me a >mailing address (on or offlist) and I'll put them in the mail when the >tax crazies get out of the post office. I've tried to read one or two of >the tapes that came with this batch - there is definitely a signal on >the tape but the adhesive that holds the tape on the spindle is dried up >and the tapes just flop off the end. They can be easily repaired with a >little Scotch tape. > >My tape card (H8-5) didn't seem to react at all and I shelved the >project for other things; I'd be interested in your ideas about >preserving the info on the tapes - I've saved .wav files of various >other tapes (SWTPc and ProcTech) but I've never had the means or need to >try to retrieve the info. > >Input from anyone else on best practices for audio tape archiving would >be appreciated. Hi Jack, That would be great thanks! - I don't mind repairing the tapes at all. My intention is to record them to CD for long-term archive, and I would be happy to send you a copy of the CD once I get that done. I can also make digital recordings available to others who might be looking for this material. You can probably turn your .WAV files into a CD with any of the home audio recording packages, and then play them out of a CD deck. You can probably also play them straight out of a computer, although you might need an older sound card with built in amplifier (SB-16?) or use a small external amplifier to get the levels required for the input to the tape interface. I've sent you my address off-list. Please let me know if it does not show up. Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Apr 13 08:06:06 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 08:06:06 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H8 tapes for Dave - archiving tapes? In-Reply-To: <20040413123651.4F2A4B4836@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <000001c42158$158a99a0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> > > > >Input from anyone else on best practices for audio tape > archiving would > >be appreciated. > > > You can probably turn your .WAV files into a CD with any of > the home audio recording packages, and then play them out of > a CD deck. You can probably also play them straight out of a > computer, although you might need an older sound card with > built in amplifier (SB-16?) or use a small external amplifier > to get the levels required for the input to the tape interface. Dave, Sorry - I should have been more specific - I'm recording using PCM at 48KHz in 16 bit mono (I use Total Recorder). Is this the best choice for preservation in terms of lossless compression and common format? Your point about playback amplification is interesting - how do I know or measure the "level" of the audio output? Can I scope the signal and measure amplitude? I guess I don't need to mention that I'm a pretty na?ve audio guy. Jack -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From me at patswayne.com Tue Apr 13 09:16:36 2004 From: me at patswayne.com (Pat Swayne) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:16:36 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Optima Case for Altair In-Reply-To: <407B67A6.9040504@ameritech.net> References: <20040412123741.DBF39B4942@outbox.allstream.net> <407AEF7C.4055@earthlink.net> <006201c420dc$3ce12ae0$6401a8c0@knology.net> <407B67A6.9040504@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040413101150.02e41cc8@mail.patswayne.com> Bob wrote: >Optima EPS is located at 2166 Mountain Industrial Blvd. Tucker, GA... Interesting... They're practically in my back yard. Just on the other side of Stone Mountain Park from me. More history in an area that's already chock full of it. -- Pat -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From paulpenn at knology.net Tue Apr 13 12:46:34 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul Pennington) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:46:34 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Optima Case for Altair References: <20040412123741.DBF39B4942@outbox.allstream.net> <407AEF7C.4055@earthlink.net> <006201c420dc$3ce12ae0$6401a8c0@knology.net> <407B67A6.9040504@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <007101c4217f$475480a0$6401a8c0@knology.net> Bob Weir wrote: > Optima EPS is located at 2166 Mountain Industrial Blvd. > Tucker, GA 30084-5088 Tel: (770) 496-4000 Fax: (770) 496-4041 > www.optimaeps.com Cool. Right down I-20 from me. I'll stop by the factory next time I'm over in Atlanta. Thanks! Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Apr 13 12:58:01 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 tapes for Dave - archiving tapes? Message-ID: <200404131758.KAA02856@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Jack The best is to get it changed from audio form to digital form as I have done for my Poly88 tapes. I wrote some simple software to transfer from tape to serial and back. This way, one can move them to a PC. Of course, as one knows from the current market, the serial port is going away. One can still get a USB serial port. I'm told that the serial rate can be limited but for archiving purposes, it can be as slow as we like. I'd hate to have to work at 110 baud but as long as it actually worked it is better than nothing. If I get around to getting my H8 up and running, I should be able to write some code to deal with the tape. I still have the tape board for my H89 but as I recall, one could have the tape or the disk but no both at the same time. I bought my H89 with tape and later upgraded to the disk. Dwight >From: "Jack Rubin" > >> Hi, I've recently acquired a Heathkit H8, however I did not >> receive the original software. I do have documentation for >> the following packages, which all appear to be original >> Heathkit distributions on cassette tape: >> >> BUG-8 Console Debugger >> TED-8 Text Editor >> HASL-8 Assembly Language package >> Benton Harbor BASIC / Extended Benton Harbor BASIC >> >> I'm looking for copies of the software. I'd love to obtain >> original Heathkit tapes, however I would be happy just to >> obtain the binaries or even audio recordings of the tapes. > >Dave, I've got some (vintage) copies I can send you - please send me a >mailing address (on or offlist) and I'll put them in the mail when the >tax crazies get out of the post office. I've tried to read one or two of >the tapes that came with this batch - there is definitely a signal on >the tape but the adhesive that holds the tape on the spindle is dried up >and the tapes just flop off the end. They can be easily repaired with a >little Scotch tape. > >My tape card (H8-5) didn't seem to react at all and I shelved the >project for other things; I'd be interested in your ideas about >preserving the info on the tapes - I've saved .wav files of various >other tapes (SWTPc and ProcTech) but I've never had the means or need to >try to retrieve the info. > >Input from anyone else on best practices for audio tape archiving would >be appreciated. > >Jack > >> >> I'd also REALLY like to locate a disk controller for it - An >> original Heath board would be ideal, but I'd be "almost as >> happy" with a working replica. >> > > > >-- >This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List > -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From me at patswayne.com Tue Apr 13 13:27:12 2004 From: me at patswayne.com (Pat Swayne) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 14:27:12 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] A little advice for preserving software. In-Reply-To: <200404131758.KAA02856@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200404131758.KAA02856@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040413142233.02ea3ac0@mail.patswayne.com> For what it's worth, here's a little advice for preserving old software: Print out the source on acid-free paper. Printing on paper is the only medium that has stood the test of time. Remember punch cards. How many machines that can read them are around now? How about punched paper tape? And now cassette tapes are going away, as are hard sector disks. How long before no one has anything that can read a CD? Just a little advice from someone whose first computer course was on an IBM 360. -- Pat -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From labomb at rochester.rr.com Tue Apr 13 13:28:21 2004 From: labomb at rochester.rr.com (Scott LaBombard) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 14:28:21 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 tapes for Dave - archiving tapes? References: <003b01c42151$264aa430$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <007001c42185$19fec330$03a8a8c0@IBMGK5RKFERKGX> Jack, > Input from anyone else on best practices for audio tape archiving would > be appreciated. I'm not sure if this qualifies as 'best practices' or not, but I have a process that I go through with most all of my 8080/z-80 systems when initially acquired. Once the system is operational, one of the first things that I do is to load up a system monitor that I wrote some time ago. Typically, the only thing that I need to change in the monitor are the IO routines ... then it's just a matter of burning an eprom if the system is eprom capable, or toggling (perhaps 'punching' is a better term for the H-8 :)) in an Intel hex file loader that can load the system monitor via the console. The 'console' in this case is a laptop running a term-emulator. My system monitor has a somewhat more elaborate Intel hex loader (with error checking and such), as well as an Intel hex dumper (again, to the console). The approach is predicated on getting a successful initial load of the tapes ... but once done, it's just a matter of 'saving' in I-hex format while capture mode is on in the terminal emulator. I've succesfully saved a variety of Altair, Imsai, and Heathkit tapes using this approach. The added benefit is that I can just use the I-hex loader to reload the files whenever needed (using the text file upload capabaility of the terminal emulator). If I don't have an eprom capable system (and in my case the H-8's are not) ...I save the monitor itself to tape so that I don't have to manually enter the loader again. In the case of my H-8, the H8-5 cassette interface is now operational. I like the H-8's approach to cassette software ...you can determine start and end addresses to dump, and execution address quite easily from the front panel once the tape is loaded. With other platforms, you have to know the location and size of the data from the cassette in order to save the correct range. In my experience, the audio backup methods aren't always reliable. Transferring hex files via a serial port is... Scott -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Apr 13 14:12:18 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 15:12:18 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 firmware request (forwarded non-member message) In-Reply-To: <000a01c42110$b422cf30$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> References: <000a01c42110$b422cf30$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <407C3B92.40302@sc.rr.com> I still have the ROM that was used to upgrade to H8-17 CP/M. I am looking for an H8-17 control card. Most of my Heath stuff was lost in the fire. Carroll Jack Rubin wrote: >From: "Steven Parker" > >Hi, I'm a new subscriber to this list. I used to work at Heathkit, >wrote >articles for HUG, developed several HDOS software items, and was the >designer of the H-8-37 Z-80 upgrade (and author of PAM-37 - you'll find >my >name imbedded in the high end of the address space). > >Ironically, I never got an H-8-37 for myself. Could anyone who has one > >send me a dump of the PAM-37 ROM? While I'm at it, does anyone have >dumps >handy for PAM-8, PAM8GO, or the H-17 ROMs? Any help would be >appreciated. > > >-- >This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List > > > -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Tue Apr 13 14:02:43 2004 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 15:02:43 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] A little advice for preserving software. In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040413142233.02ea3ac0@mail.patswayne.com> (message from Pat Swayne on Tue, 13 Apr 2004 14:27:12 -0400) References: <200404131758.KAA02856@clulw009.amd.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20040413142233.02ea3ac0@mail.patswayne.com> Message-ID: <1081881568@rothfus.com> I have a slightly different view for preservation of old software: image it onto a running machine and hopefully get it on-line. By getting the old software onto a running machine, there is a far higher likelihood that it will continue to be transferred to newer and newer storage as people migrate from machine to machine. Further, as people create back-ups on whatever media, there becomes a higher and higher probability that the media used for backup will maintain its integrity (as a whole) and that the media will be readable in the future. (the following is controversial I know...) Then, by getting the old software "on-line" or "shared" there will be more people/machines who will archive it, making use of the largest search engine on the planet: the human network. Sure, copyright laws make this method unpalatable to many. However, as a past software designer and seller, my personal experience drives me to want to preserve that software which no longer has a commercial value beyond the nostalgic value to collectors. I have been curious about this issue for quite some time. And it led me to contact the Library of Congress in an attempt to figure out if/how the body of software knowledge is being preserved as is one of the Library of Congress's charters for printed "knowledge." I haven't pursued the thread recently, but here is the response I received. Note that I've reformatted the message a bit to make it clear. I'd be interested to hear other views on the topic. Eric --------------------------------------------------------- E-mail from the Library of Congress --------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 17:11:54 -0500 (EST) > From: sciref at loc.gov > To: eric at rothfus.com > Subject: Library Question - Answer [Question #296128] > > [Question]: > Does the Library of Congress maintain archives of computer > software? Much of the recent "history" (computer history) > of the US is contained in rapidly degrading software > diskettes and tapes. It would be quite disappointing to > lose this history. > > I believe it would be quite possible to develop mechanisms > to maintain this history as well as to make it accessible > to the public. > > > [Answer]: > Librarian 2: Greetings Eric, You have hit upon a very > important task that is plaguing libraries and archival > institutions worldwide. As you may well know, digital > preservation is not an easy task. > > Currently, the Library of Congress collects software > products on disc (floppy, CDROM, etc). Copyright law > states that anything published and copyright protected in > the US must deposit two copies of that work to the Library > of Congress. For example, we have a lot of software > products from the well know companies such as > Microsoft. One of the more difficult software programs to > collect is those born digitally- available for downloads > on the Web - such as Real Player. Should we collect the > code, the set up files...? > > The Library of Congress is involved with the National > Digital Information Infrastructure Preservation Program > (NDIIPP) > > > > There are other organizations investing time and thought > into this predicament: > > Council on Library and Information Resources (CLIR) Digital > Library Federation > > Research Libraries Group: Digital Preservation > > > > There are institutions involved in archiving software. The > University of Michigan is one such institution > > > > Also see, Preserving Access to digital information > > > > One of the problems with archiving software is having the > hardware to play it back. Just because one has saved the > data, doesn't mean that is will be readable or useable in > the future. > > You might wish to contact organizations such as CLIR > (Council of Library and Information Resources) Digital > Library Federation, Research Libraries Group, or the > NDIIPP about your ideas of archiving software. > > I hope this information will be helpful to you. Please > feel very welcome to get back in touch if any of the above > is not clear, or if you have more questions. > > Sincerely, > Ms. Jennifer J. Harbster, MLIS > Research Specialist > Science, Technology, and Business Division > Library of Congress > LA 5219, Adams Building > 101 Independence Ave. SE > Washington, D.C. 20540 > Tel: 202-707-4751 > Fax: 202-707-1925 > email: jehar at loc.gov -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Apr 13 14:09:27 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 15:09:27 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info In-Reply-To: <20040412203302.067DA1EC3F4@outbox.allstream.net> References: <20040412203302.067DA1EC3F4@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <407C3AE7.1070300@sc.rr.com> I am currently working to restore an H8 tape system. I still have binary images of the original Heath tapes stored in my PC. As soon as I can re-create them, I will be happy to send you a set. (If it's legal. I'm not sure who holds the copyright on the tapes. Carroll Dave Dunfield wrote: >>The Altair struck me (and many others, I think) as a diamond in the >>rough; a truly great design, but flawed in its implementation. It was >>the flaws that got in my way of making it really shine. Others, like >>you, managed to work around them. >> >> > > > >>The Altair 8800 was *hard* to assemble. It had *hundreds* of loose wires >>connecting the boards. All those toggle switches were hand-wired. There >>were one-shots to adjust. The S-100 bus was poorly designed and had >>problems like an inadequate number of power and ground traces. The board >>layouts were bad, with not enough bypass capacitors, jumper wires and >>tacked-on fixes. You had to program it in binary. All of these can be >>dealt with by a skilled technician; but they are major roadblocks to a >>beginner. >> >> > >I am reminded of a quote... I've forgotten the exact source, but it was >from one of the early people in aviation, and it goes something like: >"people look back at our designs and say they were impractical... but >you have one big advantage in looking back... You KNOW what an airplane >is supposed to look like - we did not". > >MITS had no idea what a personal computer should look like - the Altair >is more like a minicomputer of the day. Lights, switches and bootstrapping by >manually loading binary code were how computers of the day worked, Ed and >company drew on their own experiences and information at hand. > >Was it the "ultimate personal computer" - definately not. Was it the best >it could have been - nope. Was there room for improvement - plenty. But >does it warrent the title "terrible" - I don't think so, it worked as >expected, and was a lot more practical than anything else available in 1975. >Thats the only point I wish to make. > > > > >>The H8 is basically the same machine, but repackaged to make it far >>easier to build and use. As usual, Heath did a great job of writing the >>manuals so even a beginner could build it. The design was far cleaner; >>it probably took 10% of the time to build. The front panel was octal >>instead of binary, which was easier to learn. I think the H8 bus is >>better designed, so it is much easier to add memory or I/O boards. >> >> > >My Altair came on the heels of several homebuilt wire-wrap computers, including >one that even *looked* like the Altair - complete with front panel and switches. >(how I wish I had kept that one - or at least a photo of it). At least the Altair >had printed circuit boards - Coming from this background, the Altair made a lot >of sense. Those wanting an off-the-shelf packaged appliance computer should have >waited for the TRS-80 or Apple - the industry was just not ready to provide that >yet. Yes, the H8 came closer two years later - but a couple of years after that >you could by an off-the-shelf system that you didn't have to build, with BASIC in >ROM and/or a boot disk --- does this imply that the H8 was a bad design... nope, >just at a different point on a very rapidly moving timeline. > >Btw, the Altair front panel was laid out in octal grouping - this was natural for >the 8080 CPU chip, although coming from a mainframe background I have always preferred >and worked in hex. > > > > >>>Have you seen the Series-2 IMSAI? >>> >>> >>Yes. But I think they have taken a wrong turn. It's a lovely, powerful >>machine. But it's very expensive and complicated, and still can't >>compete with modern PCs. >> >> > >Agreed - although I don't think the point is to compete with modern PC's. >(Thats why I dislike the notion of putting an ATX mainboard in it). > > > > > >>... Why use noisy high-power TTL when you can get quiet low-power HC? >> >> > >Why do die-hard large scale model railroaders use "live steam" when they >could just tuck in a weed-wacker motor. To try and present as close an >approximation to the original and environment design as possible. This is >because their goal is to preserve the era of live steam - not to build a >better more modern locomotive. > >Same is true for replica computers - otherwise all you really have is a >simulator in a box. > > > > >>Today's PCs are no longer "Personal Computers" -- they are appliances; >>inscrutible boxes that no one builds, no one programs, no one >>understands. >> >>Everyone has to start at the bottom and work their way up. You learn to >>ride a bicycle before a motorcycle. You fly a model airplane before a >>real one. And to really learn about electronics and computers, you have >>to start with something simple enough so you can truly understand it. >> >>If we expect today's kids to grow up to be tomorrow's computer >>designers, they need a way to get started on that long ladder up. The >>old Altair 8800, and H8, and other old computers gave us that ladder. >>Sure, they were "toys" by modern standards -- but we sure had a lot of >>fun (and learned a lot) playing with those toys! >> >> > >Excellent sentiments, and ones that I share, however as I have been fairly >active in promoting "back to the basics" computer education for kids, I can >tell you it ain't goint to happen. Schools are turning out "applicance >operators", and that is exactly what 99% of the world wants. (ie: where the >money is). > >For a while I ran a small "computer club" at out local school. I recall the >first time I took in my Altair and set it up, proudly giving a demonstration >of what "personal computing" was like in days gone by - The very first question >asked was "Why did anyone ever want a computer that wasn't any good?" > >Kids are used to "video games" (even when they are called "operating systems"), >and in my opinion, an H8 or Altair simply isn't going to hold their interest >long enough for them to absorb any of the really good stuff that we learned. > >So, I've taken a different approach, I use microcontrollers, robots, gadgets >and things that move and talk to keep kids interested. Essentially allowing >them to do things they can't do with a PC. Building a robot that can follow >a beam of light gives em a lot more low level skills than writing a visual >basic control for a web page... > > >As for the early machines.. I am actively collecting, repairing and preserving >as much of the original material as I can. > > > > >>My thought is an 'open source' design, that anyone can >>download and copy freely. Offer bare boards, or parts kits, or maybe >>even a complete kit if the market is there, but keep them reasonably >>priced. The whole point is to get people building, and learning, and >>having fun with computers again. >> >> > >I like this idea - that way the individual can decide if he wants to build >a detailed model, or just a work-alike machine. > > >finally: Just to get this back on subject - it's clear that I need to spend >some "quality time" with my H8. One of my immediate goals is to be able to >check out the machine, and also to complete the original set of materials >that would have been distributed with it. > >For this reason, I REALLY would like to find copies of the original software: > >Here's the original request I posted to the classic computers mailing list, >if anyone can help provide copies of this material, I would appreciate it >very much. >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Hi, I've recently acquired a Heathkit H8, however I did not receive the >original software. I do have documentation for the following packages, >which all appear to be original Heathkit distributions on cassette tape: > > BUG-8 Console Debugger > TED-8 Text Editor > HASL-8 Assembly Language package > Benton Harbor BASIC / Extended Benton Harbor BASIC > >I'm looking for copies of the software. I'd love to obtain original Heathkit >tapes, however I would be happy just to obtain the binaries or even audio >recordings of the tapes. > >If anyone can help, please contact me - thanks in advance. >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I'd also REALLY like to locate a disk controller for it - An original Heath >board would be ideal, but I'd be "almost as happy" with a working replica. > >Regards, >Dave > > From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Apr 13 16:07:44 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 17:07:44 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Board Connectors Message-ID: <407C56A0.40508@sc.rr.com> Has anyone found a source for the female card connectors on H8 cards? The original Heath part number was 432-1076. Carroll -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Apr 13 16:40:09 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 17:40:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info Message-ID: <20040413214009.5FA65B4829@outbox.allstream.net> At 15:09 13/04/2004 -0400, you wrote: >I am currently working to restore an H8 tape system. I still have binary >images of the original Heath tapes stored in my PC. As soon as I can >re-create them, I will be happy to send you a set. (If it's legal. I'm >not sure who holds the copyright on the tapes. >Carroll Hi Carroll, Thanks, I would appreciate that very much. If you prefer, you could just email me the binary images, and I can recreate audio media myself. Regarding the copyright issue, I believe I do have the appropriate legal permission to use the code, since I have acquired an original H8 system which did at one time have this software ... I can send photos of the software manuals if you would consider that as "acceptable proof". The problem is that this particular H8 was passed through several people who didn't really have an interest in it, but had the good sense to realize that it should be kept out of the landfill - The machine and the large binder of documenation survived in very good condition, but somewhere along the way, someone forgot about the cassette tapes. It my attempts to backtrack to find the tapes, it looks like they probably did go to the landfill, as one of the previous owners recalls doing a "big purge" of old junk a number of years back... Anyway, no trace of the original tapes can be found. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Apr 13 16:22:06 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 17:22:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 tapes for Dave - archiving tapes? Message-ID: <20040413212206.00B641EC308@outbox.allstream.net> At 08:06 13/04/2004 -0500, you wrote: >> > >> >Input from anyone else on best practices for audio tape >> archiving would >> >be appreciated. >> >> >> You can probably turn your .WAV files into a CD with any of >> the home audio recording packages, and then play them out of >> a CD deck. You can probably also play them straight out of a >> computer, although you might need an older sound card with >> built in amplifier (SB-16?) or use a small external amplifier >> to get the levels required for the input to the tape interface. > >Dave, > >Sorry - I should have been more specific - I'm recording using PCM at >48KHz in 16 bit mono (I use Total Recorder). Is this the best choice for >preservation in terms of lossless compression and common format? > >Your point about playback amplification is interesting - how do I know >or measure the "level" of the audio output? Can I scope the signal and >measure amplitude? I guess I don't need to mention that I'm a pretty >na?ve audio guy. Hi Jack, CD quality (44khz 16 bit) has worked well for me, although I don't know if it is ideal. I highly recommend that you also extract the data and store it as a binary image ... The audio tracks are good for systems which do not provide another loading means and I like to have the audio files so that I can show a system working "the way it originally did", but keeping ONLY the audio files it placing to much trust in an antique analog interface... If you extract the binary code, you can always figure out some way to load it if the tape board dies... Regarding playback level - most modern sound cards provide only a line level output, and are intended to drive amplified speakers. Most cassette interface designs are driven by an audio amplifier intended to run unamplified speakers, and the line-level is simply not strong enough. A small audio amplifier (or amplified sound card) will essentially duplicate what was in the original cassette recorder. You get the level right exactly the same way you did with the cassette machine - start with a signal which plays at a good volume through a small 8-ohm speaker without distortion, then "tweek" it up/down to find the level most suitable to your audio board. This is one case where having a physical volume control (not a drop-down menu) is a bit easier to work with. Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Apr 13 16:57:04 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 17:57:04 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info In-Reply-To: <20040413214009.5FA65B4829@outbox.allstream.net> References: <20040413214009.5FA65B4829@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <407C6230.7030006@sc.rr.com> My file server is down at the moment. As soon as I get it back up, I will email the images. I referred to them as PID tapes (Program Image Distribution). All the images are pure binary with a PID file extension. Also, do you know where I can get an H8-5 interface card? Most of my H8 stuff was lost long ago. CEW Dave Dunfield wrote: >At 15:09 13/04/2004 -0400, you wrote: > > >>I am currently working to restore an H8 tape system. I still have binary >>images of the original Heath tapes stored in my PC. As soon as I can >>re-create them, I will be happy to send you a set. (If it's legal. I'm >>not sure who holds the copyright on the tapes. >>Carroll >> >> > >Hi Carroll, > >Thanks, I would appreciate that very much. If you prefer, you could just >email me the binary images, and I can recreate audio media myself. > >Regarding the copyright issue, I believe I do have the appropriate legal >permission to use the code, since I have acquired an original H8 system >which did at one time have this software ... I can send photos of the >software manuals if you would consider that as "acceptable proof". > >The problem is that this particular H8 was passed through several people who >didn't really have an interest in it, but had the good sense to realize that >it should be kept out of the landfill - The machine and the large binder of >documenation survived in very good condition, but somewhere along the way, >someone forgot about the cassette tapes. It my attempts to backtrack to find >the tapes, it looks like they probably did go to the landfill, as one of the >previous owners recalls doing a "big purge" of old junk a number of years back... >Anyway, no trace of the original tapes can be found. > >Regards, >Dave > > From leeahart at earthlink.net Tue Apr 13 19:38:17 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 17:38:17 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] H8 tapes for Dave - archiving tapes? References: <000001c42158$158a99a0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <407C87F9.1849@earthlink.net> Jack Rubin wrote: > > > > > > >Input from anyone else on best practices for audio tape > > archiving would > > >be appreciated. > > > > > > You can probably turn your .WAV files into a CD with any of > > the home audio recording packages, and then play them out of > > a CD deck. You can probably also play them straight out of a > > computer, although you might need an older sound card with > > built in amplifier (SB-16?) or use a small external amplifier > > to get the levels required for the input to the tape interface. > > Dave, > > Sorry - I should have been more specific - I'm recording using PCM at > 48KHz in 16 bit mono (I use Total Recorder). Is this the best choice for > preservation in terms of lossless compression and common format? > > Your point about playback amplification is interesting - how do I know > or measure the "level" of the audio output? Can I scope the signal and > measure amplitude? I guess I don't need to mention that I'm a pretty > na?ve audio guy. As I recall, the cassette tape format isn't really audio at all. It is basically a square wave, whose frequency is changed for the "1" and "0". An ordinary UART (8251?) assembles these 1's and 0's into data. So, using a .WAV file or other high quality audio recording technique is going to be massive overkill. However, it also easy! :-) -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Apr 14 07:21:59 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 08:21:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info Message-ID: <20040414122159.7ACBB1EC3BC@outbox.allstream.net> At 17:57 13/04/2004 -0400, you wrote: >My file server is down at the moment. As soon as I get it back up, I >will email the images. I referred to them as PID tapes (Program Image >Distribution). All the images are pure binary with a PID file extension. >Also, do you know where I can get an H8-5 interface card? Most of my H8 >stuff was lost long ago. >CEW Thanks - that would be very helpful. Sorry, I just got my H8 a short while ago, and I have not yet built up a good list of support resources - I'm sure someone in this list can help. I have the H5 documentation if you need it. Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Wed Apr 14 08:24:28 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:24:28 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info In-Reply-To: <20040414122159.7ACBB1EC3BC@outbox.allstream.net> References: <20040414122159.7ACBB1EC3BC@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <407D3B8C.4040406@sc.rr.com> FYI. What I'm planning to do is to build a new box with all the audio conversion components of the H8-5 in an external box that I can connect to the serial port of a PC. Then in the H8, I will have a simple serial port (8251). That way, I can read or write cassette tapes from either a PC or the H8. Hope to get my file server back up today. Carroll Dave Dunfield wrote: >At 17:57 13/04/2004 -0400, you wrote: > > >>My file server is down at the moment. As soon as I get it back up, I >>will email the images. I referred to them as PID tapes (Program Image >>Distribution). All the images are pure binary with a PID file extension. >>Also, do you know where I can get an H8-5 interface card? Most of my H8 >>stuff was lost long ago. >>CEW >> >> > >Thanks - that would be very helpful. > >Sorry, I just got my H8 a short while ago, and I have not yet built up a >good list of support resources - I'm sure someone in this list can help. > >I have the H5 documentation if you need it. > >Regards, > > From me at patswayne.com Wed Apr 14 11:28:44 2004 From: me at patswayne.com (Pat Swayne) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:28:44 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Helpful links In-Reply-To: <407D3B8C.4040406@sc.rr.com> References: <20040414122159.7ACBB1EC3BC@outbox.allstream.net> <407D3B8C.4040406@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040414122647.02e995a0@mail.patswayne.com> You all may already know about these sites, but just in case... http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/Cpm/ http://www.z80.de/ehome.htm -- Pat -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Wed Apr 14 12:35:11 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 10:35:11 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Board Connectors References: <407C56A0.40508@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <407D764F.5E83@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > Has anyone found a source for the female card connectors on H8 cards? > The original Heath part number was 432-1076. This same 25-pin connector is used in the H89, and I have a few of them from when I was building Z89-37 soft-sector controller boards. (PS: I still have the bare boards and many of the other parts, too.) This connector is a Molex or Waldom 22-18-2251, or Methode 1002-125-2103. This series is available from electronics distributors like Digikey or Mouser, but they only stock them up to 12 pins. I had to special order the 25-pin version. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Apr 14 11:42:46 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info In-Reply-To: <407D3B8C.4040406@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040414164246.13748.qmail@web80207.mail.yahoo.com> Carroll - I have an extra H8-5 you can borrow if it would be helpful. Jack Carroll Waddell wrote: FYI. What I'm planning to do is to build a new box with all the audio conversion components of the H8-5 in an external box that I can connect to the serial port of a PC. Then in the H8, I will have a simple serial port (8251). That way, I can read or write cassette tapes from either a PC or the H8. Hope to get my file server back up today. Carroll Dave Dunfield wrote: >At 17:57 13/04/2004 -0400, you wrote: > > >>My file server is down at the moment. As soon as I get it back up, I >>will email the images. I referred to them as PID tapes (Program Image >>Distribution). All the images are pure binary with a PID file extension. >>Also, do you know where I can get an H8-5 interface card? Most of my H8 >>stuff was lost long ago. >>CEW >> >> > >Thanks - that would be very helpful. > >Sorry, I just got my H8 a short while ago, and I have not yet built up a >good list of support resources - I'm sure someone in this list can help. > >I have the H5 documentation if you need it. > >Regards, > > From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Wed Apr 14 16:16:48 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:16:48 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 memory Message-ID: <407DAA40.3030605@sc.rr.com> Has anyone built or tried to build an H8 memory card using 62256 (32K x 8) memory chips? I am working on one. My old Trionix 64k bit the dust. Carroll -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Wed Apr 14 17:59:58 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:59:58 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] RE: H8 tapes for Dave - archiving tapes? Message-ID: > >> Input from anyone else on best practices for audio tape > >> archiving would be appreciated. Storing the data in files makes the most sense to me. When the H-17 first came out, I wrote a utility to save cassette data onto disk files, and then later load them back from the floppy. It was distributed by HUG. If you really needed the audio, once it's loaded in again you can make a fresh dump. =================== On my previous request, I just wanted to be sure that it's clear that I'm just looking for hex dumps or binary data files of the ROM's (PAM-8, PAM8GO, H-17, and PAM-37), and not actual chips. The files can just be emailed. Cheers, - Steven _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 14 18:54:03 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 16:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] RE: H8 tapes for Dave - archiving tapes? Message-ID: <200404142354.QAA04045@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I don't know if this can be done on the H89. It seems that I remember that you can have the tape card or the floppy card but not both because of a port overlap. This should be similar for the H8. Dwight >From: "Steven Parker" > >> >> Input from anyone else on best practices for audio tape >> >> archiving would be appreciated. > >Storing the data in files makes the most sense to me. When the H-17 first >came out, I wrote a utility to save cassette data onto disk files, and then >later load them back from the floppy. It was distributed by HUG. > >If you really needed the audio, once it's loaded in again you can make a >fresh dump. > >=================== > >On my previous request, I just wanted to be sure that it's clear that I'm >just looking for hex dumps or binary data files of the ROM's (PAM-8, PAM8GO, >H-17, and PAM-37), and not actual chips. The files can just be emailed. > >Cheers, > >- Steven > >_________________________________________________________________ >FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now! >http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ > >-- >This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List > -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Wed Apr 14 23:53:55 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 21:53:55 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] RE: H8 tapes for Dave - archiving tapes? References: <200404142354.QAA04045@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <407E1563.614A@earthlink.net> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I remember that you can have the tape card or the floppy > card but not both because of a port overlap. This should > be similar for the H8. Heath had two I/O decoder ROMs for the H89. The early one (444-43) decoded I/O addresses for the hard-sector controller board (H88-1), 3-port serial board (H88-3), and the cassette board (H88-5). The later one (444-61) decoded I/O addresses for all 4 disk controller boards (H17, H37, H47, and H67) and the 3-port serial board, but *not* the cassette board. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Thu Apr 15 06:42:53 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 07:42:53 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 Operations Manual Message-ID: <407E753D.2020109@sc.rr.com> I have scanned the H8 operations manual and will make it available to anyone who wants it for about $3 to cover the cost of a CD and mailing. Carroll Waddell -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Apr 15 06:59:27 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 06:59:27 -0500 Subject: was: [sebhc] H8 Operations Manual - SEBHC ftp site coming soon In-Reply-To: <407E753D.2020109@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <002701c422e1$1ada32f0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Carroll (and everyone), The SEBHC ftp site will be available shortly (by this weekend if not sooner). I will include a depository for scanned manuals so we can share material without having to hassle with shipping and postage. There will also be a collection of HUG software as well as public areas for uploading other items of mutual interest. Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at staunch89er.com [mailto:sebhc at staunch89er.com] On > Behalf Of Carroll Waddell > Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 6:43 AM > To: sebhc at staunch89er.com > Subject: [sebhc] H8 Operations Manual > > > I have scanned the H8 operations manual and will make it available to > anyone who wants it for about $3 to cover the cost of a CD > and mailing. Carroll Waddell > > -- > This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List > sebhc-request at staunch89er.com. > -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Thu Apr 15 07:55:43 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 08:55:43 -0400 Subject: was: [sebhc] H8 Operations Manual - SEBHC ftp site coming soon In-Reply-To: <002701c422e1$1ada32f0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> References: <002701c422e1$1ada32f0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <407E864F.7020607@sc.rr.com> Sounds good to me. CEW Jack Rubin wrote: >Carroll (and everyone), > >The SEBHC ftp site will be available shortly (by this weekend if not >sooner). I will include a depository for scanned manuals so we can share >material without having to hassle with shipping and postage. There will >also be a collection of HUG software as well as public areas for >uploading other items of mutual interest. > >Jack > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: sebhc at staunch89er.com [mailto:sebhc at staunch89er.com] On >>Behalf Of Carroll Waddell >>Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 6:43 AM >>To: sebhc at staunch89er.com >>Subject: [sebhc] H8 Operations Manual >> >> >>I have scanned the H8 operations manual and will make it available to >>anyone who wants it for about $3 to cover the cost of a CD >>and mailing. Carroll Waddell >> >>-- >>This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List >>sebhc-request at staunch89er.com. >> >> >> > >-- >This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List > > > From sp11 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 16 00:04:41 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 05:04:41 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] RE: SEBHC ftp site coming soon Message-ID: Jack says: >The SEBHC ftp site will be available shortly (by this weekend if not >sooner). Neat. What's the actual URL for this site? Will we be able to contribute by uploading directly to it? I'm still hoping for some ROM images or dumps. Does anyone have them, or have a machine set up they could get them from? Specifically, PAM-8, PAM8GO, PAM-37 and H-17 (the boot ROM on the interface board). _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee? Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Fri Apr 16 07:31:52 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 08:31:52 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] RE: SEBHC ftp site coming soon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <407FD238.1020702@sc.rr.com> I have the original PAM8 rom in a box. When I have a few minutes, I'll try to read it in my EPROM programmer. If it works, I'll send you an image of the ROM. Carroll Waddell Steven Parker wrote: > Jack says: > >> The SEBHC ftp site will be available shortly (by this weekend if not >> sooner). > > > Neat. What's the actual URL for this site? Will we be able to > contribute by uploading directly to it? > > I'm still hoping for some ROM images or dumps. Does anyone have them, > or have a machine set up they could get them from? Specifically, > PAM-8, PAM8GO, PAM-37 and H-17 (the boot ROM on the interface board). > > _________________________________________________________________ > Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from > McAfee? Security. > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > -- > This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List > -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Apr 16 07:53:56 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 07:53:56 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] ROM images, sebhc ftp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c423b1$e14908a0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Steven, I can dump the ROMs from my H8 as a text file using DBUG - not pretty, but I expect you're kind of used to that! My system is a "classic" so I can provide PAM8 and H17; Eric Rothfus has a Z80 running so he should be able to come up with PAM37, but I don't know about PAM8GO. What format is best, given the DBUG options - octal, byte, word, etc.? I did take a peak at the H17 ROM last night and saw the JGL HEATH tag at the end - with all that extra space, he could have squeezed in another function! I was really hoping to come up with clean files that could be used to reburn functional ROMs, which is why I was after chip types - I don't want to destroy my working set with the wrong voltage or pin settings. I wouldn't mind a copy of PAM8GO myself - it would preserve my keytops! Sounds like this is what Carroll will be able to provide. I also have the source listings for several of these ROMs, but I'm assuming you want the actual dumps rather than the listings. Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at staunch89er.com [mailto:sebhc at staunch89er.com] On > Behalf Of Steven Parker > Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 12:05 AM > To: sebhc at staunch89er.com > Subject: [sebhc] RE: SEBHC ftp site coming soon > > > Jack says: > >The SEBHC ftp site will be available shortly (by this weekend if not > >sooner). > > Neat. What's the actual URL for this site? Will we be able > to contribute > by uploading directly to it? > > I'm still hoping for some ROM images or dumps. Does anyone > have them, or > have a machine set up they could get them from? Specifically, PAM-8, > PAM8GO, PAM-37 and H-17 (the boot ROM on the interface board). > -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Fri Apr 16 11:49:51 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:49:51 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] ROM images, sebhc ftp References: <000101c423b1$e14908a0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <40800EAF.67BE@earthlink.net> Jack Rubin wrote: > > Steven, > > I can dump the ROMs from my H8 as a text file using DBUG - not pretty, > but I expect you're kind of used to that! My system is a "classic" so I > can provide PAM8 and H17; Eric Rothfus has a Z80 running so he should be > able to come up with PAM37, but I don't know about PAM8GO. > > What format is best, given the DBUG options - octal, byte, word, etc.? I > did take a peak at the H17 ROM last night and saw the JGL HEATH tag at > the end - with all that extra space, he could have squeezed in another > function! > > I was really hoping to come up with clean files that could be used to > reburn functional ROMs, which is why I was after chip types - I don't > want to destroy my working set with the wrong voltage or pin settings. I > wouldn't mind a copy of PAM8GO myself - it would preserve my keytops! > Sounds like this is what Carroll will be able to provide. > > I also have the source listings for several of these ROMs, but I'm > assuming you want the actual dumps rather than the listings. > > Jack > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sebhc at staunch89er.com [mailto:sebhc at staunch89er.com] On > > Behalf Of Steven Parker > > Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 12:05 AM > > To: sebhc at staunch89er.com > > Subject: [sebhc] RE: SEBHC ftp site coming soon > > > > > > Jack says: > > >The SEBHC ftp site will be available shortly (by this weekend if not > > >sooner). > > > > Neat. What's the actual URL for this site? Will we be able > > to contribute > > by uploading directly to it? > > > > I'm still hoping for some ROM images or dumps. Does anyone > > have them, or > > have a machine set up they could get them from? Specifically, PAM-8, > > PAM8GO, PAM-37 and H-17 (the boot ROM on the interface board). I have Intel HEX format files for all the H89 ROMs. This is an easy format to burn EPROMs from; all EPROM programmers recognize it, and CP/M has no trouble reading and writing it. The H-17 ROM (444-19) is the same one used in the H8. It is interesting that none of the H89 ROMs have any copyright notices printed on them, or hidden in the code inside. Heath also widely distributed the source code for them in printed form (the source code *did* usually have copyright notices). My assumption is that Heath was very open to distribution of the ROMs themselves (after all, they would only work in Heath equipment). -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 16 11:58:33 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 16:58:33 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] RE: ROM images, sebhc ftp Message-ID: "Jack Rubin" says: >What format is best, given the DBUG options - octal, byte, word, etc.? Bytes would be handier than words. Any radix is okay, I suppose I have a slight preference for hex. >iI did take a peak at the H17 ROM last night and saw the JGL HEATH tag at >the end - with all that extra space, he could have squeezed in another >function! I also put my name in PAM-37, but I can assure you I already had added every function I could! The radix change and z80 register access were not part of the original design spec, but they both seemed so "right". The boss was a bit ticked that I went beyond the design spec but I campaigned to keep it in - and I did manage to complete it on schedule anyway. >I was really hoping to come up with clean files that could be used to >reburn functional ROMs Send me dumps and I'll send you back image files. >...why I was after chip types - I don't >want to destroy my working set with the wrong voltage or pin settings. PAM-8 was a 2708, I think PAM8GO was a 2716, but I have no idea what the extra space was for, as far as I recall the only difference was the default content of the PC after reset, so you could boot without loading the H-17 start address manually. Cheers, - Steven P.S. What's the URL for the ftp site? _________________________________________________________________ Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar ? FREE! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 16 12:43:43 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] ROM images, sebhc ftp Message-ID: <200404161743.KAA06025@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jack Rubin" > >Steven, > >I can dump the ROMs from my H8 as a text file using DBUG - not pretty, >but I expect you're kind of used to that! My system is a "classic" so I >can provide PAM8 and H17; Eric Rothfus has a Z80 running so he should be >able to come up with PAM37, but I don't know about PAM8GO. Hi Jack Many of us can read our EPROM's directly through programmers. I'll read a bunch of stuff this weekend and get them in Intel hex format ( easy to read by both humans and programmers ). > >What format is best, given the DBUG options - octal, byte, word, etc.? I >did take a peak at the H17 ROM last night and saw the JGL HEATH tag at >the end - with all that extra space, he could have squeezed in another >function! > >I was really hoping to come up with clean files that could be used to >reburn functional ROMs, which is why I was after chip types - I don't >want to destroy my working set with the wrong voltage or pin settings. I >wouldn't mind a copy of PAM8GO myself - it would preserve my keytops! >Sounds like this is what Carroll will be able to provide. > >I also have the source listings for several of these ROMs, but I'm >assuming you want the actual dumps rather than the listings. We should get the listings posted on line as well. Of course, it'd be great to get them in text format but images are good as well. What is PAM8GO? Dwight > >Jack > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sebhc at staunch89er.com [mailto:sebhc at staunch89er.com] On >> Behalf Of Steven Parker >> Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 12:05 AM >> To: sebhc at staunch89er.com >> Subject: [sebhc] RE: SEBHC ftp site coming soon >> >> >> Jack says: >> >The SEBHC ftp site will be available shortly (by this weekend if not >> >sooner). >> >> Neat. What's the actual URL for this site? Will we be able >> to contribute >> by uploading directly to it? >> >> I'm still hoping for some ROM images or dumps. Does anyone >> have them, or >> have a machine set up they could get them from? Specifically, PAM-8, >> PAM8GO, PAM-37 and H-17 (the boot ROM on the interface board). >> > >-- >This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Apr 16 12:54:52 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] ROM images, sebhc ftp In-Reply-To: <200404161743.KAA06025@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20040416175452.30121.qmail@web80202.mail.yahoo.com> PAM8GO was the next rev of PAM8 - on a PAM8 machine, you have to manually load the program counter with the H17 ROM entry point and then do a JMP to boot the system (a fair number of keystrokes - reset, reg, pc, alter, 0,3,0,0,0,0,alter, go). PAM8GO just forced the entry point into the PC and let you boot by with a reset, go. Doesn't seem like a big deal until you've had to reboot a couple dozen times. By the time XCON and Z37 came along you could even choose primary and secondary controllers and boot devices! The ftp site is pretty much set up but I'm still dawdling on the domain registration. I'll should be able to post an IP address pretty soon even though the URL won't be ready for a couple of days. Your RAW dump utility is one of the first things I want to get on line! Jack "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: >From: "Jack Rubin" > >Steven, > >I can dump the ROMs from my H8 as a text file using DBUG - not pretty, >but I expect you're kind of used to that! My system is a "classic" so I >can provide PAM8 and H17; Eric Rothfus has a Z80 running so he should be >able to come up with PAM37, but I don't know about PAM8GO. Hi Jack Many of us can read our EPROM's directly through programmers. I'll read a bunch of stuff this weekend and get them in Intel hex format ( easy to read by both humans and programmers ). > >What format is best, given the DBUG options - octal, byte, word, etc.? I >did take a peak at the H17 ROM last night and saw the JGL HEATH tag at >the end - with all that extra space, he could have squeezed in another >function! > >I was really hoping to come up with clean files that could be used to >reburn functional ROMs, which is why I was after chip types - I don't >want to destroy my working set with the wrong voltage or pin settings. I >wouldn't mind a copy of PAM8GO myself - it would preserve my keytops! >Sounds like this is what Carroll will be able to provide. > >I also have the source listings for several of these ROMs, but I'm >assuming you want the actual dumps rather than the listings. We should get the listings posted on line as well. Of course, it'd be great to get them in text format but images are good as well. What is PAM8GO? Dwight > >Jack > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sebhc at staunch89er.com [mailto:sebhc at staunch89er.com] On >> Behalf Of Steven Parker >> Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 12:05 AM >> To: sebhc at staunch89er.com >> Subject: [sebhc] RE: SEBHC ftp site coming soon >> >> >> Jack says: >> >The SEBHC ftp site will be available shortly (by this weekend if not >> >sooner). >> >> Neat. What's the actual URL for this site? Will we be able >> to contribute >> by uploading directly to it? >> >> I'm still hoping for some ROM images or dumps. Does anyone >> have them, or >> have a machine set up they could get them from? Specifically, PAM-8, >> PAM8GO, PAM-37 and H-17 (the boot ROM on the interface board). >> > >-- >This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From rsvoboda at Covington.k12.ky.us Fri Apr 16 13:39:02 2004 From: rsvoboda at Covington.k12.ky.us (Svoboda, Roger - Chapman Computer Networking) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:39:02 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] domain registration Message-ID: <2C8D6532A5D0994CB5763C338FF55F2803C98DAA@E134000N0> If you want to do an inexpensive domain registration, try www.godaddy.com and go for a .us for $4.95/yr or .com for $6.95/yr I have several with them and I like the way they do business... Roger Svoboda Cisco Networking Academy Instructor Chapman Career and Technical Center a part of Holmes High School 2500 Madison Avenue Covington, KY 41014 859-655-9545x6582 rsvoboda at covington.k12.ky.us -----Original Message----- From: Jack Rubin [mailto:jack.rubin at ameritech.net] Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 1:55 PM To: sebhc at staunch89er.com Subject: Re: [sebhc] ROM images, sebhc ftp PAM8GO was the next rev of PAM8 - on a PAM8 machine, you have to manually load the program counter with the H17 ROM entry point and then do a JMP to boot the system (a fair number of keystrokes - reset, reg, pc, alter, 0,3,0,0,0,0,alter, go). PAM8GO just forced the entry point into the PC and let you boot by with a reset, go. Doesn't seem like a big deal until you've had to reboot a couple dozen times. By the time XCON and Z37 came along you could even choose primary and secondary controllers and boot devices! The ftp site is pretty much set up but I'm still dawdling on the domain registration. I'll should be able to post an IP address pretty soon even though the URL won't be ready for a couple of days. Your RAW dump utility is one of the first things I want to get on line! Jack "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: >From: "Jack Rubin" > >Steven, > >I can dump the ROMs from my H8 as a text file using DBUG - not pretty, >but I expect you're kind of used to that! My system is a "classic" so I >can provide PAM8 and H17; Eric Rothfus has a Z80 running so he should be >able to come up with PAM37, but I don't know about PAM8GO. Hi Jack Many of us can read our EPROM's directly through programmers. I'll read a bunch of stuff this weekend and get them in Intel hex format ( easy to read by both humans and programmers ). > >What format is best, given the DBUG options - octal, byte, word, etc.? I >did take a peak at the H17 ROM last night and saw the JGL HEATH tag at >the end - with all that extra space, he could have squeezed in another >function! > >I was really hoping to come up with clean files that could be used to >reburn functional ROMs, which is why I was after chip types - I don't >want to destroy my working set with the wrong voltage or pin settings. I >wouldn't mind a copy of PAM8GO myself - it would preserve my keytops! >Sounds like this is what Carroll will be able to provide. > >I also have the source listings for several of these ROMs, but I'm >assuming you want the actual dumps rather than the listings. We should get the listings posted on line as well. Of course, it'd be great to get them in text format but images are good as well. What is PAM8GO? Dwight > >Jack > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sebhc at staunch89er.com [mailto:sebhc at staunch89er.com] On >> Behalf Of Steven Parker >> Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 12:05 AM >> To: sebhc at staunch89er.com >> Subject: [sebhc] RE: SEBHC ftp site coming soon >> >> >> Jack says: >> >The SEBHC ftp site will be available shortly (by this weekend if not >> >sooner). >> >> Neat. What's the actual URL for this site? Will we be able >> to contribute >> by uploading directly to it? >> >> I'm still hoping for some ROM images or dumps. Does anyone >> have them, or >> have a machine set up they could get them from? Specifically, PAM-8, >> PAM8GO, PAM-37 and H-17 (the boot ROM on the interface board). >> > >-- >This list is for Beta testers of the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.657 / Virus Database: 422 - Release Date: 04/13/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.657 / Virus Database: 422 - Release Date: 04/13/2004 -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sat Apr 17 12:05:18 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 13:05:18 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8-5 Manuals Message-ID: <408163CE.5090003@sc.rr.com> Does anyone have the manuals for the H8-5 that I could borrow and copy? Carroll Waddell -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Apr 17 12:10:06 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 13:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8-5 Manuals Message-ID: <20040417171006.3B7685D6A@outbox.allstream.net> At 13:05 17/04/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Does anyone have the manuals for the H8-5 that I could borrow and copy? >Carroll Waddell I'm planning to scan them (if someone else hasn't done so already) - I can bump that up the list and try and get it done this weekend if you can't find anything closer. (Once scanned, I can arrange to have it put somewhere for you to download sometime next week). Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Sat Apr 17 14:24:35 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 12:24:35 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] H8-5 Manuals References: <408163CE.5090003@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <40818473.67BB@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > > Does anyone have the manuals for the H8-5 that I could borrow and copy? > Carroll Waddell Yes, I have them. There the manual itself, the schematic, and an illustration booklet. But I don't have a scanner; if Dave Dunfield has trouble getting them up, let me know and I could make a copy for you. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Apr 17 13:09:26 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 13:09:26 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] test Message-ID: <000001c424a7$1f931dd0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> of sebhc mailing address -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sat Apr 17 16:13:31 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:13:31 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8-5 Manuals In-Reply-To: <20040417171006.3B7685D6A@outbox.allstream.net> References: <20040417171006.3B7685D6A@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <40819DFB.2040505@sc.rr.com> Thanks Dave CEW Dave Dunfield wrote: >At 13:05 17/04/2004 -0400, you wrote: > > >>Does anyone have the manuals for the H8-5 that I could borrow and copy? >>Carroll Waddell >> >> > >I'm planning to scan them (if someone else hasn't done so already) - I >can bump that up the list and try and get it done this weekend if you >can't find anything closer. (Once scanned, I can arrange to have it put >somewhere for you to download sometime next week). > >Regards, > > From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Sun Apr 18 12:37:23 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 10:37:23 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] test--please delete/ignore Message-ID: <002901c4256b$cf2edda0$200fa8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Testing 1-2-3 Is the correct domain name appearing below?! -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun Apr 18 22:20:46 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 22:20:46 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] HUG disk 885-1095 - SY: driver Message-ID: <000001c425bd$4f023d50$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> The README.DOC file on my copy of this disk has a bad section of text with legible pages before and after it. Does anyone else have a copy of this disk - I think Walt Moore might. If so, would you please take a look and see if the .doc file on your copy is intact? Thanks. Jack -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Mon Apr 19 13:20:30 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 11:20:30 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] HUG disk 885-1095 - SY: driver In-Reply-To: <000001c425bd$4f023d50$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: > The README.DOC file on my copy of this disk has a bad section of text > with legible pages before and after it. Does anyone else have a copy of > this disk - I think Walt Moore might. If so, would you please take a > look and see if the .doc file on your copy is intact? Jack, I happened to have a ZIP file of the driver on my machine here at the office (yes, I'm a goof off, and fiercely proud of it :-). Is this what you are looking for...? Patrick HUG SY.DVD INSTALLATION NOTES Dave Shaw, December, 2001 COPYRIGHT As noted in the material on the disk image, this driver is Copyright Dean K. Gibson. I am distributing it here with his permission. The Display Configuration (DC) program included on the disk was written by Dave Shaw and is not a part of the original HUG SY: driver package. That program is in the public domain with no copyright. GETTING STARTED The first thing you should do is read (twice!) the file SYDVD.DOC on the enclosed diskette, and understand it completely. The emulator supports 80-track and double-sided disks. Disk configuration is set in the HUG SY: driver as you install it. As noted below, that configuration gets written to the boot track of all disks init'd with the new driver, so you should consider the drive configuration to be relatively static. As you read SYDVD.DOC, you should be thinking of how you want to lay out your disk drives. I would recommend that you go with all 40-track, 2-sided drives to start, as this is the most compatible configuration and offers excellent storage capacity and performance. In any case, I strongly recommend that you leave SY0: a 40-track drive. If you think that you want to make SY0: an 80-track drive, see the section below, "Making SY0: an 80-track Drive." It's not easy. I managed it once; it took several hours to figure out the correct sequence. INSTALLATION The installation documentation supplied in the file SYDVD.DOC is excellent, but several points need to be stressed in light of the flexibility of the emulator. First, it might appear that you can change disk drive configurations very easily with the emulator. This is true, AS LONG AS YOU DONOT CHANGE THE CONFIGURATION OF YOUR BOOT DRIVE(S). When you init a disk using the new driver, the disk drive configuration as set in the driver is copied to the boot track of the new disk. When you boot up that new disk, the configuration of the drive you boot from had better be the same as when the disk was initialized or the boot will fail. If you only boot from SY0:, you can change the other two drives as often as you like, understanding that you have to quit and restart the emulator for a track density change to take effect. Remember that the driver needs to match the drive configuration: If you set the 80-track option for a drive in Preferences, make sure that you also SET SYx: 80TRK for the corresponding unit, and do so on every one of your bootable disks. I would recommend that you take the following approach to installation: (1) Init and Sysgen a new, temporary disk. Let's call it T1. (2) Copy the HUG driver onto T1. (3) Boot T1. (4) Using "set", set the SY: device characteristics for all three drives, the way you believe you will leave them for ever. Make all the other sets as well. Assuming that all drives will be 40x2, I recommend that you set the driver as follows: SET SY: MOTOR 127 SET SY: SELECT 0 SET SY0: STEP 2 SET SY1: STEP 2 SET SY2: STEP 2 SET SY0: SIDES 2 SET SY1: SIDES 2 SET SY2: SIDES 2 SET SY0: 40TRK SET SY1: 40TRK SET SY2: 40TRK (I believe there is an error in the documentation related to how the SELECT parameter works. The documentation would lead you to believe that a high value for this parameter would be best, but in fact the lowest possible value gives the best performance.) There is no benefit in having a single-sided drive. The driver will provide full single- and double-sided disk functionality in a double-sided drive. (5) Copy init.abs and sysgen.abs to T1. (6) If you set any 80-track disks in step 4, set the corresponding 80-track check box in Preferences, and restart the emulator. Boot T1. (7) Init and Sysgen a new disk. This will be your master sysgen disk. (8) Boot from the master sysgen disk. You should find that booting is somewhat faster with this disk. Delete the T1 disk. (9) Copy and configure all the software that you want to have on all of your bootable disks, onto the master sysgen disk. (10) Init and Sysgen a new copy of all your bootable disks. Copy the unique content over from the old copy, and trash the old copy. MAKING SY0: AN 80-TRACK DRIVE This is a lot of trouble. If you want to try this, make sure you work with new disks and don't try to boot any of your old disks until you have it working with the new stuff. The process goes like this: (1) Follow steps 1 through 6 above. In step 4, make SY0: a 40-track drive. Set SY1: and SY2: for 80 tracks. (2) Boot T1 disk in SY0:. (3) Init and Sysgen a new disk in drive SY1: or SY2:; lets call it T2. (4) Using the program "boot.abs", boot T2 in SY1: or SY2:. Example: >boot sy1: (5) When booted, set all three drives to 80trk. Set 80-track preferences on all three drives. Quit HDOS (bye command) and quit the emulator. (6) Start the emulator and boot T2 on SY0:. It SHOULD boot correctly. (7) If you want one of the other two drives to have 40 tracks, set the driver accordingly, and change the emulator preferences. Then restart the emulator and boot from T2. (9) Pick up from Step 7 above. Be sure to trash both T1 and T2. Now any disk should be bootable in any drive. QUESTIONS? If you are having problems understanding how to get this driver installed, please feel free to drop me an e-mail at heath8080a at aol.com and I'll try to answer your questions. Dave Shaw -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From waltm22 at comcast.net Mon Apr 19 13:19:26 2004 From: waltm22 at comcast.net (Walter Moore) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 11:19:26 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] HUG disk 885-1095 - SY: driver In-Reply-To: <000001c425bd$4f023d50$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <00af01c4263a$dd14e7f0$0700a8c0@walterp4> My README.DOC is readable. Now that taxes and my road trip are over, I've had time to copy my HUG disks and will be sending them off today or tomorrw. I had to remove a 16K card from the old H8 - it wasn't being recognized. I will have to work on it. Boy, it was nice to see the old machine working away again, the front panel displaying the current track, etc. Anybody have a good memory test for the H8? I had a descent SRAM test once upon a time, but if I still have it, it is on 8" disks and I'm still trying to get those up and running. Maybe this week I'll be able to clean up the ones I just received (thank you Jack), and read one of those disks (first time in 20 years!). Since I've asked about a memory test, what would be a good way to exchange software over the net? I'd like to stick to just using a serial port and uploading/downloading via a utility (e.g. INTELHEX AT:=SY0:file.ext or INTELHEX SY1:file.nam=AT: or something like that). I've written stuff like that before, it would be pretty easy to do. Question about SDUP - can it also copy CP/M disks? One of the disks I was supposed to copy is CP/M and it wasn't able to copy it. I don't know if the disk has gone bad or if SDUP reads/writes via HDOS instead of the ROM and thus cannot read the CP/M format. Regarding the SDUP disk I was sent - it would seem a good idea whenever sending out a copy of a bootable SDUP disk to set the drive stepping to 36ms for all drives. Some of these old drives won't step at 8ms. Just a thought. Another thought is what to do about dates. Can HDOS be patched to be Y2K? I really doubt it. I haven't looked at the source code to see what can be done about it, but it doesn't really like 19-apr-2004. If we are ever going to exchange source files we write, there should be some sort of version/date consistency among the group. Thoughts? ..walt -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Jack Rubin Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 8:21 PM To: SEBHC Subject: [sebhc] HUG disk 885-1095 - SY: driver The README.DOC file on my copy of this disk has a bad section of text with legible pages before and after it. Does anyone else have a copy of this disk - I think Walt Moore might. If so, would you please take a look and see if the .doc file on your copy is intact? Thanks. Jack -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Mon Apr 19 13:29:06 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 11:29:06 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] HUG disk 885-1095 - SY: driver In-Reply-To: <00af01c4263a$dd14e7f0$0700a8c0@walterp4> Message-ID: > Another thought is what to do about dates. Can HDOS be patched to be Y2K? > I really doubt it. I haven't looked at the source code to see what can be > done about it, but it doesn't really like 19-apr-2004. If we are > ever going > to exchange source files we write, there should be some sort of > version/date > consistency among the group. If there's real interest in doing this, I can make a CVS server available to the group for source control. Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Apr 19 13:31:57 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 11:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] HUG disk 885-1095 - SY: driver Message-ID: <200404191831.LAA07847@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Jack I've recovered data in the past from HDOS disk ( hard sectored ). The data is synchronous data and if often only missing 1 bit. This means that the data returning is shifted towards the LSB by one bit. If you can capture the read buffer before HDOS over writes it, you can shift the bits, once or twice, to recover most of the the rest of the data. Usually one can fill in the missing parts by context ( even if it is code ). I used to do this with my Forth code that is on one of the images that they will put on the web page. Dwight >From: "Jack Rubin" > >The README.DOC file on my copy of this disk has a bad section of text >with legible pages before and after it. Does anyone else have a copy of >this disk - I think Walt Moore might. If so, would you please take a >look and see if the .doc file on your copy is intact? > >Thanks. > >Jack > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Mon Apr 19 13:31:25 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 11:31:25 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] HUG disk 885-1095 - SY: driver In-Reply-To: <00af01c4263a$dd14e7f0$0700a8c0@walterp4> Message-ID: > Question about SDUP - can it also copy CP/M disks? One of the disks I was > supposed to copy is CP/M and it wasn't able to copy it. I don't > know if the > disk has gone bad or if SDUP reads/writes via HDOS instead of the ROM and > thus cannot read the CP/M format. Walter, no, it won't do CP/M. It expects to find all of the volume number/label foo. If you need a CP/M boot disk with copier, let me know and I'll one along. > Regarding the SDUP disk I was sent - it would seem a good idea whenever > sending out a copy of a bootable SDUP disk to set the drive > stepping to 36ms > for all drives. Some of these old drives won't step at 8ms. Just a > thought. Argh. The things we forget. Sorry, my bad. Were you able to reset the step rate, or shall I send you one of those as well? --Patick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com Mon Apr 19 13:44:57 2004 From: RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com (West, Ronald S.) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 14:44:57 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] HUG disk 885-1095 - SY: driver Message-ID: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9B77@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> > >Anybody have a good memory test for the H8? I had a descent SRAM test once upon a time, but if I >still have it, it is on 8" disks and I'm still trying to get those up and running. Maybe this week > I'll be able to clean up the ones I just received (thank you Jack), and read one of those disks >(first time in 20 years!). If you have the PAM8GO ROM, I think there is a memory test embedded in the beginning of that ROM somewhere (if memory serves me - no pun intended). I have the WH-64 memory card (or something like that) populated with 64k x 1 chips instead of the 16's it was supposed to have. I ran that test to make sure my mod didn't cause timing problems. Ron -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Mon Apr 19 15:13:17 2004 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 15:13:17 Subject: [sebhc] Software Exchanging (was HUG disk 885-1095 - SY: driver) In-Reply-To: <00af01c4263a$dd14e7f0$0700a8c0@walterp4> (waltm22@comcast.net) References: <00af01c4263a$dd14e7f0$0700a8c0@walterp4> Message-ID: <1082396199@rothfus.com> > Since I've asked about a memory test, what would be a good > way to exchange software over the net? I'd like to stick > to just using a serial port and uploading/downloading via > a utility (e.g. INTELHEX AT:=SY0:file.ext or INTELHEX > SY1:file.nam=AT: or something like that). I've written > stuff like that before, it would be pretty easy to do. (warning, long post follows :-) Hey Walt, This question has been the center of my "hobby" these days: "how to archive and exchange software for the old machines." The discussion really centers around these points IMHO (not in priority order, the numbers are just for reference): 1 - creating the images from original floppy media 2 - archiving/storing images of floppies, and their formats 3 - using the images on emulators 4 - using the images on real machines There are many issues here, but overall I feel that it is a noble :-) endeavor to try to preserve the original programs and operating systems. It is a ball, too, to be able to boot up the old software and to get your old equipment running, while not having to worry about "where do I get the software?" So I thought I'd put some thoughts/links in a post to share: 1 - Creating Images - there are a number of ways that you can make a "virtual copy" of an existing floppy. The one I have been using is David Shaw and David Wallace's program "diskdump". This is a little assembly program that dumps a floppy on the H8/89 onto a serial port. This program is what I use, and what Jack Rubin is using now. I have a virtual floppy with diskdump up on my web site...or you can find it on Dave Wallace's site, or contact me and I can send you the source. It is in assembly and is a 4-file distribution. 2 - Image Formats - the simplest format for an image is a sector by sector binary dump. This, however, is a bad practice IMHO. Floppy images should be, in some fashion, distinct so that you can tell the difference (or a program can tell the difference) between a floppy image for the TRS-80 and one for the H8. The "H17" format is the one that is output by the "diskdump" program. It is an ascii format that includes not only the floppy data, but also the volume number and a nice human readable label for the floppy image. It is completely distinquishable from all of image formats that I have seen. There are numerous image formats out there, and most of them were designed when someone was building an emulator to run the software. The H17 format was done when the Daves were building emulators. The TRS-80 formats (DMK, JV1, JV2, JVC) were all built when different people were building different emulators. It is impractical to think that we can cause a universal standard for floppy images. However, when new formats are created, the least we can do is make them distinct so that they can be recognized...this is why I like the Daves' format. 3 - Emulators - One great way to preserve the old machines is through emulation. There are dozens of emulators out there, and they all have some format in which they can use floppy images. Dave Wallace's is pretty cool, though it's not yet finished... http://home.comcast.net/~davidwallace2000 Click on the "HEATHKIT" logo bar. 4 - Running Images on Real machines (my personal favorite) - As I work with the old machines (ok, PLAY with the old machines) I never have the software when I need it. And many of the old disks that I DO have are either dead or dying. So I created the Semi-Virtual Diskette (SVD) which is really just a floppy drive emulator. The idea is to be able to download an image and boot it directly from it as though you had the original floppy. See www.theSVD.com for more info. But that is hardware... But there are other approaches besides the hardware approach. Dwight Elvey has created a mechanism for getting images up and running (dwight.elvey at amd.com). This mechanism allows you to key in a small init program and then get image transfer from a PC to a real floppy. Anyway, hopefully these links will help others. Note to Dwight, if you have read this far, it would be nice to combine the SVD software and your download mechanism. The SVD has a pretty GUI (the SVD Control Program or SVD-CP) that runs on the PC side that helps you download images. I would love to find a way to teach the SVD-CP to download to a listener running on a target H8/H89. The idea is that the listener would identify itself in response to a simple SVD-CP query, and the SVD-CP would then know how to transfer files to it. The listener would need to provide ongoing feedback to the SVD-CP and hopefully allow upload and download. Just a thought, let me know if you'd be interested in working on this with me. Eric -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Apr 19 15:11:25 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] In-Reply-To: <40843140.4030105@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040419201125.1281.qmail@web80212.mail.yahoo.com> darn, and I only need 2,429 of them!! Carroll Waddell wrote:I checked on the board connectors for heath boards. They are available from mouser but,,,,,,, the minimum order is 2,430 at $1.37 each. Carroll -------- Original Message -------- Subject: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website. Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 11:55:58 -0500 From: dennis.dauphin at mouser.com To: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Dear Ms. Waddell, Thank you for your inquiry to Mouser Electronics. We have quoted the requested item below. Part Number: 22-18-2251 Lead Time: 4 - 6 weeks Minimum Order Quantity: 2,430 Order in Multiples of 810 (after minimum) Price: 2,430 @ 1.37 each If we can be of further assistance, or if you wish to place an order, please feel free to contact us. Sincerely, Dennis Dauphin Technical Sales Mouser Electronics A TTI Company 817-804-3804, ext.2402 fax: 817-804-3897 ___dennis.dauphin at mouser.com _ )>**^ -----Original Message----- *From:* Ryan O'Keefe *Sent:* Friday, April 16, 2004 9:16 PM *To:* Mouser Online Assistance *Subject:* General Comments from Mouser website. Name: Carroll Waddell Subject: Molex Connectors Email: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Several people have formed a group to restore Heathkit H8's. I was looking for H8 board connectors. They are MOLEX p/n 22-18-2251. This is a right angle, 25 pin, female connector with 2 board supports on the ends. Can these still be obtained? From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Apr 19 15:06:24 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 16:06:24 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] Message-ID: <40843140.4030105@sc.rr.com> I checked on the board connectors for heath boards. They are available from mouser but,,,,,,, the minimum order is 2,430 at $1.37 each. Carroll -------- Original Message -------- Subject: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website. Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 11:55:58 -0500 From: dennis.dauphin at mouser.com To: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Dear Ms. Waddell, Thank you for your inquiry to Mouser Electronics. We have quoted the requested item below. Part Number: 22-18-2251 Lead Time: 4 - 6 weeks Minimum Order Quantity: 2,430 Order in Multiples of 810 (after minimum) Price: 2,430 @ 1.37 each If we can be of further assistance, or if you wish to place an order, please feel free to contact us. Sincerely, Dennis Dauphin Technical Sales Mouser Electronics A TTI Company 817-804-3804, ext.2402 fax: 817-804-3897 ___dennis.dauphin at mouser.com _ )>**^ -----Original Message----- *From:* Ryan O'Keefe *Sent:* Friday, April 16, 2004 9:16 PM *To:* Mouser Online Assistance *Subject:* General Comments from Mouser website. Name: Carroll Waddell Subject: Molex Connectors Email: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Several people have formed a group to restore Heathkit H8's. I was looking for H8 board connectors. They are MOLEX p/n 22-18-2251. This is a right angle, 25 pin, female connector with 2 board supports on the ends. Can these still be obtained? From eric at rothfus.com Mon Apr 19 16:29:00 2004 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 16:29:00 Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] In-Reply-To: <40843140.4030105@sc.rr.com> (message from Carroll Waddell on Mon, 19 Apr 2004 16:06:24 -0400) References: <40843140.4030105@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <1082405895@rothfus.com> Did you try Digikey? -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Mon Apr 19 15:34:39 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:34:39 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] New Media Order Message-ID: Everyone, As previously mentioned, I am going to place a bulk order for new (not new old stock) hard and soft-sector 5.25" media. Based on my estimate for order size, the quoted price is $1.85 per diskette (double-sided, double-density; the hard-sectored diskettes are punched 10 sector and work both on the Heath and North Star disk systems). The diskettes are bulk-packed and do not come with sleeves, boxes, or labels. The vendor is a manufacturer and normally deals with orders in the multiple thousands. Economies of scale are not strongly in our favor unless you all surprise me and everyone wants 1000 :-), but the price they quoted me is somewhat better than that I got nearly two years ago (about $2.00 each). If you'd like to participate in the order, please let me know how many (each) of hard-sectored and soft-sectored diskettes you would like. If we get enough requests, we may get a further discount (I'll ask once I know the total order). Shipping and tax (CA residents only) will be determined based on your order. If any of you care to know, I will be ordering 250 of each for myself. Please let me know by next Monday the 26th if you care to participate. Thanks! Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Apr 19 15:41:00 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Software Exchanging (was HUG disk 885-1095 - SY: driver) Message-ID: <200404192041.NAA07943@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Eric J. Rothfus" ---snip--- > >Note to Dwight, if you have read this far, it would be nice >to combine the SVD software and your download mechanism. >The SVD has a pretty GUI (the SVD Control Program or SVD-CP) >that runs on the PC side that helps you download images. I >would love to find a way to teach the SVD-CP to download to >a listener running on a target H8/H89. Hi I like the idea of the SVD format. I was asking Patrick about the format of the header. I can tell you what I have in the file that is run on the H89 side that I bootstrap by the typed in code. It has some simple handshake. There is a simple query that the DOS code does to see if the code is running on the H89 side. As I recall, I transfer one sector at a time with handshake but no error checking. Error checking might be an issue if one is bootstrapping from a modem but there is no reason for it if using a direct serial port. I chose to use the LP port on the Heath side because that can use a simple 1:1 cable with no special pin changes. It is also the one most used on the H89. I also wrote the code so that it self aligns itself once loaded into the H89. This is so that if there is a byte or two in the serial chip, it can ignore this. This keeps the bootstrap code as small as possible. It is still a little large because the serial chip needs a number of registers initialized. I always liked the serial chips used on the early S-100 boards. These were hard wired for things like baud rate. Bootstrap code is much simpler. I can give you a list of what the listener expects and how it responsed. You should be able to run it from your GUI with out any problems. There is one special extra feature that I have for some of my floppies. Normally, HDOS disk keep the volume number on sector 9. Many of my Forth disk, always leave the volume number as 0. This means that one needs a way to ignore the sector 9 value. I'd also like to expand the listener code to work with the 96tpi disk and the 8 inch disk. I don't have a soft sectored setup so I've no way to fiddle with that. My code for the H89 side is all done in assembly so one can make enhancements if one wants to. I do all my DOS stuff on the PC side in Forth so it most likely won't mean much to you if you don't know the language. The bootstrap method is the way most are done. The code is loaded backwards into the RAM until it overwrites the bootstrap code and starts executing the loaded code. One has to position the main listener code to overlap at the right place. Dwight > >The idea is that the listener would identify itself in >response to a simple SVD-CP query, and the SVD-CP would then >know how to transfer files to it. The listener would need >to provide ongoing feedback to the SVD-CP and hopefully >allow upload and download. > >Just a thought, let me know if you'd be interested in >working on this with me. > >Eric > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Apr 19 15:53:59 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 16:53:59 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] In-Reply-To: <1082405895@rothfus.com> References: <40843140.4030105@sc.rr.com> <1082405895@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <40843C67.1060405@sc.rr.com> regarding connectors: No I haven't tried them. CEW Eric J. Rothfus wrote: >Did you try Digikey? > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Apr 19 16:25:34 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 14:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] Message-ID: <200404192125.OAA07984@clulw009.amd.com> Hi My Digikey catalog has the PC board connectors I think you are talking about. As I recall, the H8 had 2 connectors with a small piece of plastic to hold them aligned. I wouldn't think this would be needed if they were soldered with a pin strip holding them aligned. I don't recall how many pins the connectors had. The ones in the catalog only go up to 12 pins. 12 pins Gold WM3221-ND 112.39 for 100 ea 12 pins solder WM3010-ND 91.08 for 100 ea I'd have to look at the boards in my machine. You shouldn't use gold unless the pins on the mother board are also gold. Later Dwight >From: "Carroll Waddell" > >regarding connectors: >No I haven't tried them. >CEW > >Eric J. Rothfus wrote: > >>Did you try Digikey? >> >>-- >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> >> >> > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From labomb at rochester.rr.com Mon Apr 19 16:41:16 2004 From: labomb at rochester.rr.com (Scott LaBombard) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 17:41:16 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] References: <40843140.4030105@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <00ac01c42657$0bcbc390$05a8a8c0@IBMD9HY10WBGXB> Folks, A quick glance at http://www.molex.com/product/pcb/4455t.html shows that there are a couple of alternatives for this part. If you want to forgo 'select gold' and instead go for the plain old 'gold' contact part, then your part number would be 22-18-2253. The folks at http://www.arrow.com/aws/pg_welcome have this part in stock. In addition, they sell to individuals and have no minimum order requirement. They show a price of $4.27 per unit. There's also a tin contact variation as a last resort ... Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carroll Waddell" To: Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 4:06 PM Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] > I checked on the board connectors for heath boards. They are available > from mouser but,,,,,,, > > the minimum order is 2,430 at $1.37 each. > Carroll > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website. > Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 11:55:58 -0500 > From: dennis.dauphin at mouser.com > To: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com > > > > Dear Ms. Waddell, > > Thank you for your inquiry to Mouser Electronics. We have quoted the > requested item below. > > Part Number: 22-18-2251 > Lead Time: 4 - 6 weeks > Minimum Order Quantity: 2,430 > Order in Multiples of 810 (after minimum) > Price: 2,430 @ 1.37 each > > If we can be of further assistance, or if you wish to place an order, > please feel free to contact us. > > Sincerely, > > Dennis Dauphin > Technical Sales > Mouser Electronics > A TTI Company > 817-804-3804, ext.2402 > fax: 817-804-3897 > ___dennis.dauphin at mouser.com > _ > > > > )>**^ > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* Ryan O'Keefe > *Sent:* Friday, April 16, 2004 9:16 PM > *To:* Mouser Online Assistance > *Subject:* General Comments from Mouser website. > > > > Name: > > > > Carroll Waddell > > Subject: > > > > Molex Connectors > > Email: > > > > CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com > > Several people have formed a group to restore Heathkit H8's. I was > looking for H8 board connectors. They are MOLEX p/n 22-18-2251. This is > a right angle, 25 pin, female connector with 2 board supports on the > ends. Can these still be obtained? > > > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Apr 19 17:14:51 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 15:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] Message-ID: <200404192214.PAA08006@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Scott LaBombard" > >Folks, > >A quick glance at http://www.molex.com/product/pcb/4455t.html shows that >there are a couple of alternatives for this part. If you want to forgo >'select gold' >and instead go for the plain old 'gold' contact part, then your part number >would be 22-18-2253. > >The folks at http://www.arrow.com/aws/pg_welcome have this part in stock. >In addition, they sell to individuals and have no minimum order requirement. >They show a price of $4.27 per unit. > >There's also a tin contact variation as a last resort ... > > >Scott > Hi As I noted, you should only use gold if the mother board also has gold pins. Never mix metals on pin contacts. Contacts go bad fast enough as it is without adding electrolysis. For those that worry about contact and want to protect their older machine, placing some Dow-Corning #4 silicon grease on the pins will improve contact and protect them from normal electrolysis. There are issues in a salt air environment but I've not had any problems and I live within 2 miles of the coast. The grease has no other electrical problems and is itself, non-conductive. I use it on, switch connacts, TV tuners, EPROM pins, card edge connectors, lamp sockets, power connectors, screws that hold regulators or power transistors and just about anywhere that one has metal to metal that has to carry current. I have a HiFi amplifier that has a toroidal transformer. This used to cause the power switch to arc and stick together ( I suspect the core was saturating on the first cycle ). I put the grease in the switch and it has been working fine for over 10 years now. When I worked at Intel, we did some studies on card edge connectors. The normal gold on gold contact had about 10 to 15 milli-ohms of resistance. With the grease, this dropped to under 2 milli-ohms. This was true even after the environmental chamber at 90% humidity where the normal gold on gold would degrade to around 30 to 50 milli-ohms. They chose not to use it there because once it got on a surface, one could not get lettering stamps to work. This isn't an issue for us because we rarely add such to our machines. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Apr 19 17:31:59 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 18:31:59 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] In-Reply-To: <200404192125.OAA07984@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200404192125.OAA07984@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <4084535F.6060703@sc.rr.com> The H8 had 2 25 pin connectors on each card. CEW Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >Hi > My Digikey catalog has the PC board connectors I think >you are talking about. As I recall, the H8 had 2 connectors >with a small piece of plastic to hold them aligned. I >wouldn't think this would be needed if they were soldered >with a pin strip holding them aligned. I don't recall >how many pins the connectors had. The ones in the catalog >only go up to 12 pins. >12 pins Gold WM3221-ND 112.39 for 100 ea >12 pins solder WM3010-ND 91.08 for 100 ea > I'd have to look at the boards in my machine. You shouldn't >use gold unless the pins on the mother board are also gold. >Later >Dwight > > > > >>From: "Carroll Waddell" >> >>regarding connectors: >>No I haven't tried them. >>CEW >> >>Eric J. Rothfus wrote: >> >> >> >>>Did you try Digikey? >>> >>>-- >>>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>-- >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> >> >> > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > From labomb at rochester.rr.com Mon Apr 19 17:29:58 2004 From: labomb at rochester.rr.com (Scott LaBombard) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 18:29:58 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] References: <200404192214.PAA08006@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <00d301c4265d$d9193b60$05a8a8c0@IBMD9HY10WBGXB> Dwight ... Without hauling out one of my H8's to confirm ...I believe that the stock motherboard uses gold pins. I assumed that Carroll provided the correct part number ...which would seem to confirm that belief. Otherwise, I agree with your comments. That's why I mentioned using tin contacts as a last resort (if at all)... Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 6:14 PM Subject: Re: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] > >From: "Scott LaBombard" > > > >Folks, > > > >A quick glance at http://www.molex.com/product/pcb/4455t.html shows that > >there are a couple of alternatives for this part. If you want to forgo > >'select gold' > >and instead go for the plain old 'gold' contact part, then your part number > >would be 22-18-2253. > > > >The folks at http://www.arrow.com/aws/pg_welcome have this part in stock. > >In addition, they sell to individuals and have no minimum order requirement. > >They show a price of $4.27 per unit. > > > >There's also a tin contact variation as a last resort ... > > > > > >Scott > > > > Hi > As I noted, you should only use gold if the mother board also > has gold pins. Never mix metals on pin contacts. Contacts go > bad fast enough as it is without adding electrolysis. > For those that worry about contact and want to protect their > older machine, placing some Dow-Corning #4 silicon grease on > the pins will improve contact and protect them from normal > electrolysis. There are issues in a salt air environment > but I've not had any problems and I live within 2 miles of > the coast. The grease has no other electrical problems and > is itself, non-conductive. I use it on, switch connacts, TV > tuners, EPROM pins, card edge connectors, lamp sockets, power > connectors, screws that hold regulators or power transistors > and just about anywhere that one has metal to metal that > has to carry current. I have a HiFi amplifier that has a > toroidal transformer. This used to cause the power switch > to arc and stick together ( I suspect the core was saturating > on the first cycle ). I put the grease in the switch and > it has been working fine for over 10 years now. When I > worked at Intel, we did some studies on card edge connectors. > The normal gold on gold contact had about 10 to 15 milli-ohms > of resistance. With the grease, this dropped to under 2 milli-ohms. > This was true even after the environmental chamber at 90% > humidity where the normal gold on gold would degrade to around > 30 to 50 milli-ohms. They chose not to use it there because > once it got on a surface, one could not get lettering stamps to > work. This isn't an issue for us because we rarely add such > to our machines. > Dwight > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From waltm22 at comcast.net Mon Apr 19 18:18:09 2004 From: waltm22 at comcast.net (Walter Moore) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 16:18:09 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] In-Reply-To: <00d301c4265d$d9193b60$05a8a8c0@IBMD9HY10WBGXB> Message-ID: <00c001c42664$97ad5240$0700a8c0@walterp4> The era of your H8 motherboard pretty much determined if it had gold or tin plating. I remember some propaganda from Heath about how their accelerated testing showed tin to be as good as gold. I also remember many H8 users having to replace all edge connectors in their machines. I was one of them. Of the four H8s I have here, two are tin, two are gold. At least we can get both parts... ..walt -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Scott LaBombard Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 3:30 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] Dwight ... Without hauling out one of my H8's to confirm ...I believe that the stock motherboard uses gold pins. I assumed that Carroll provided the correct part number ...which would seem to confirm that belief. Otherwise, I agree with your comments. That's why I mentioned using tin contacts as a last resort (if at all)... Scott -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Apr 19 18:30:25 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 16:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] Message-ID: <200404192330.QAA08097@clulw009.amd.com> Hi This sounds like a good reason to use the silicon grease. At least it will slow down the electrolysis action when one has a missmatch. Dwight >From: "Walter Moore" > >The era of your H8 motherboard pretty much determined if it had gold or tin >plating. I remember some propaganda from Heath about how their accelerated >testing showed tin to be as good as gold. I also remember many H8 users >having to replace all edge connectors in their machines. I was one of them. >Of the four H8s I have here, two are tin, two are gold. > >At least we can get both parts... > >..walt > >-----Original Message----- >From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Scott LaBombard >Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 3:30 PM >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Subject: Re: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] > >Dwight ... > >Without hauling out one of my H8's to confirm ...I believe that the >stock motherboard uses gold pins. > >I assumed that Carroll provided the correct part number ...which >would seem to confirm that belief. > >Otherwise, I agree with your comments. That's why I mentioned >using tin contacts as a last resort (if at all)... > > >Scott > > > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Apr 19 18:27:21 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 16:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] Message-ID: <200404192327.QAA08093@clulw009.amd.com> Hi That is too bad. Digikey only list up to 12 pins. I do question the part number though. Looking at the digikey catalog, the part numbers of 22-18-xxxx are vertical mount and not the right angle mount. They show 22-15-xxxx numbers for the right angle mount. The xxxx numbers are different for the same numbers of pins in the two different groups. I'd recommend getting a sample unit before buying a pile of them. Dwight >From: "Carroll Waddell" > >The H8 had 2 25 pin connectors on each card. >CEW > >Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >>Hi >> My Digikey catalog has the PC board connectors I think >>you are talking about. As I recall, the H8 had 2 connectors >>with a small piece of plastic to hold them aligned. I >>wouldn't think this would be needed if they were soldered >>with a pin strip holding them aligned. I don't recall >>how many pins the connectors had. The ones in the catalog >>only go up to 12 pins. >>12 pins Gold WM3221-ND 112.39 for 100 ea >>12 pins solder WM3010-ND 91.08 for 100 ea >> I'd have to look at the boards in my machine. You shouldn't >>use gold unless the pins on the mother board are also gold. >>Later >>Dwight >> >> >> >> >>>From: "Carroll Waddell" >>> >>>regarding connectors: >>>No I haven't tried them. >>>CEW >>> >>>Eric J. Rothfus wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Did you try Digikey? >>>> >>>>-- >>>>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>-- >>>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>-- >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> >> >> -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Mon Apr 19 20:06:03 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 18:06:03 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] References: <40843140.4030105@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <4084777B.2944@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > I checked on the board connectors for heath boards. They are available > from mouser but the minimum order is 2,430 at $1.37 each. Sounds like they are really saying, "We don't want your business". I bought 50 pieces of 1002-125-2103 from Methode for $4.20 each. The price was a consequence of their $200 minumum order (plus shipping and handling). I only have 3 of them left, but about a dozen bare Z89-37 soft sector boards. We could contact Methode again and order a similar amount if there was enough interest. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From waltm22 at comcast.net Mon Apr 19 18:34:18 2004 From: waltm22 at comcast.net (Walter Moore) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 16:34:18 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] New Media Order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00c101c42666$d8fc4e70$0700a8c0@walterp4> It would be interesting to know where/$$ of the next price break. That could influence my quantity. Have you ever looked into a source for sleeves? Unfortunately, I threw out a bunch four or five months ago. Now I wish I had them back. ..walt -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 1:35 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: [sebhc] New Media Order Everyone, As previously mentioned, I am going to place a bulk order for new (not new old stock) hard and soft-sector 5.25" media. Based on my estimate for order size, the quoted price is $1.85 per diskette (double-sided, double-density; the hard-sectored diskettes are punched 10 sector and work both on the Heath and North Star disk systems). The diskettes are bulk-packed and do not come with sleeves, boxes, or labels. The vendor is a manufacturer and normally deals with orders in the multiple thousands. Economies of scale are not strongly in our favor unless you all surprise me and everyone wants 1000 :-), but the price they quoted me is somewhat better than that I got nearly two years ago (about $2.00 each). If you'd like to participate in the order, please let me know how many (each) of hard-sectored and soft-sectored diskettes you would like. If we get enough requests, we may get a further discount (I'll ask once I know the total order). Shipping and tax (CA residents only) will be determined based on your order. If any of you care to know, I will be ordering 250 of each for myself. Please let me know by next Monday the 26th if you care to participate. Thanks! Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From waltm22 at comcast.net Mon Apr 19 18:51:26 2004 From: waltm22 at comcast.net (Walter Moore) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 16:51:26 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] HUG disk 885-1095 - SY: driver In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00c201c42669$3df403c0$0700a8c0@walterp4> I'll just send the CP/M disk along with the others, let you copy it and send it back. I'm not a CP/M guy. Don't you also have to build the kernel for your memory and I/O configuration? Anyway, it will be easier for you then me... I was able to reset the stepping times. I just didn't want to pull the write-protect tab off, so I SDUP'ed it and used the copy. I only found out about the stepping times by playing a little with the commands on the disk to see what they did. I remember the first H17 disks which were the Wangco's. They could step at 6ms! I like the REDUCDIR command. I wrote one way back in '79 to do just that. Getting back something like 10 allocation units was great! ..walt -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 11:31 AM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: RE: [sebhc] HUG disk 885-1095 - SY: driver > Question about SDUP - can it also copy CP/M disks? One of the disks I was > supposed to copy is CP/M and it wasn't able to copy it. I don't > know if the > disk has gone bad or if SDUP reads/writes via HDOS instead of the ROM and > thus cannot read the CP/M format. Walter, no, it won't do CP/M. It expects to find all of the volume number/label foo. If you need a CP/M boot disk with copier, let me know and I'll one along. > Regarding the SDUP disk I was sent - it would seem a good idea whenever > sending out a copy of a bootable SDUP disk to set the drive > stepping to 36ms > for all drives. Some of these old drives won't step at 8ms. Just a > thought. Argh. The things we forget. Sorry, my bad. Were you able to reset the step rate, or shall I send you one of those as well? --Patick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Apr 19 19:15:24 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 19:15:24 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] New Media Order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c4266c$9419aa90$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Patrick, Please put me down for 100 of each. Thanks. Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Patrick > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 3:35 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: [sebhc] New Media Order > > > Everyone, > > As previously mentioned, I am going to place a bulk order for > new (not new old stock) hard and soft-sector 5.25" media. > > Based on my estimate for order size, the quoted price is > $1.85 per diskette (double-sided, double-density; the > hard-sectored diskettes are punched 10 sector and work both > on the Heath and North Star disk systems). The diskettes are > bulk-packed and do not come with sleeves, boxes, or labels. > > The vendor is a manufacturer and normally deals with orders > in the multiple thousands. Economies of scale are not > strongly in our favor unless you all surprise me and everyone > wants 1000 :-), but the price they quoted me is somewhat > better than that I got nearly two years ago (about $2.00 each). > > If you'd like to participate in the order, please let me know how many > (each) of hard-sectored and soft-sectored diskettes you would > like. If we get enough requests, we may get a further > discount (I'll ask once I know the total order). Shipping > and tax (CA residents only) will be determined based on your > order. If any of you care to know, I will be ordering 250 of > each for myself. > > Please let me know by next Monday the 26th if you care to participate. > > Thanks! > Patrick > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Mon Apr 19 19:19:14 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 17:19:14 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] New Media Order In-Reply-To: <00c101c42666$d8fc4e70$0700a8c0@walterp4> Message-ID: > It would be interesting to know where/$$ of the next price break. That > could influence my quantity. > > Have you ever looked into a source for sleeves? Unfortunately, I > threw out > a bunch four or five months ago. Now I wish I had them back. Walt, I can ask them. I suspect it's 2500. I'll also ask about sleeves. They must have 'em. --Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Apr 19 20:06:19 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:06:19 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] In-Reply-To: <00d301c4265d$d9193b60$05a8a8c0@IBMD9HY10WBGXB> References: <200404192214.PAA08006@clulw009.amd.com> <00d301c4265d$d9193b60$05a8a8c0@IBMD9HY10WBGXB> Message-ID: <4084778B.7030208@sc.rr.com> Some H8's may have had gold contacts, but the 3 that I have all had tin plated contacts. CEW Scott LaBombard wrote: >Dwight ... > >Without hauling out one of my H8's to confirm ...I believe that the >stock motherboard uses gold pins. > >I assumed that Carroll provided the correct part number ...which >would seem to confirm that belief. > >Otherwise, I agree with your comments. That's why I mentioned >using tin contacts as a last resort (if at all)... > > >Scott > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >To: >Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 6:14 PM >Subject: Re: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] > > > > >>>From: "Scott LaBombard" >>> >>>Folks, >>> >>>A quick glance at http://www.molex.com/product/pcb/4455t.html shows that >>>there are a couple of alternatives for this part. If you want to forgo >>>'select gold' >>>and instead go for the plain old 'gold' contact part, then your part >>> >>> >number > > >>>would be 22-18-2253. >>> >>>The folks at http://www.arrow.com/aws/pg_welcome have this part in stock. >>>In addition, they sell to individuals and have no minimum order >>> >>> >requirement. > > >>>They show a price of $4.27 per unit. >>> >>>There's also a tin contact variation as a last resort ... >>> >>> >>>Scott >>> >>> >>> >>Hi >> As I noted, you should only use gold if the mother board also >>has gold pins. Never mix metals on pin contacts. Contacts go >>bad fast enough as it is without adding electrolysis. >> For those that worry about contact and want to protect their >>older machine, placing some Dow-Corning #4 silicon grease on >>the pins will improve contact and protect them from normal >>electrolysis. There are issues in a salt air environment >>but I've not had any problems and I live within 2 miles of >>the coast. The grease has no other electrical problems and >>is itself, non-conductive. I use it on, switch connacts, TV >>tuners, EPROM pins, card edge connectors, lamp sockets, power >>connectors, screws that hold regulators or power transistors >>and just about anywhere that one has metal to metal that >>has to carry current. I have a HiFi amplifier that has a >>toroidal transformer. This used to cause the power switch >>to arc and stick together ( I suspect the core was saturating >>on the first cycle ). I put the grease in the switch and >>it has been working fine for over 10 years now. When I >>worked at Intel, we did some studies on card edge connectors. >>The normal gold on gold contact had about 10 to 15 milli-ohms >>of resistance. With the grease, this dropped to under 2 milli-ohms. >>This was true even after the environmental chamber at 90% >>humidity where the normal gold on gold would degrade to around >>30 to 50 milli-ohms. They chose not to use it there because >>once it got on a surface, one could not get lettering stamps to >>work. This isn't an issue for us because we rarely add such >>to our machines. >>Dwight >> >> >>-- >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> >> > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Apr 19 20:12:57 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:12:57 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] In-Reply-To: <4084777B.2944@earthlink.net> References: <40843140.4030105@sc.rr.com> <4084777B.2944@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40847919.3010400@sc.rr.com> I wouldn't mind having several H8 card connectors. However, I can't afford to buy 2,000+. I would buy about 150 or 200 if someone wants to but the other 2,000. I am designing some new boards to replace functions of the older H8 cards. I really don't have any old H8 cards. I just finished wire wrap testing a 64K memory board that only requires 5 IC's. Now, I want to create a printed memory board. After that, I'll need to reconstruct an H8-17 board if I can't find an original one. Carroll Lee Hart wrote: >Carroll Waddell wrote: > > >>I checked on the board connectors for heath boards. They are available >>from mouser but the minimum order is 2,430 at $1.37 each. >> >> > >Sounds like they are really saying, "We don't want your business". > >I bought 50 pieces of 1002-125-2103 from Methode for $4.20 each. The >price was a consequence of their $200 minumum order (plus shipping and >handling). I only have 3 of them left, but about a dozen bare Z89-37 >soft sector boards. We could contact Methode again and order a similar >amount if there was enough interest. > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Apr 19 20:13:36 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 18:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] Message-ID: <200404200113.SAA08239@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Oops. I just looked at the catalog again. I should have said that the non-gold have numbers 22-15-xxxx while the gold plated have 22-16-xxxx for the right angle ( what is used on the H8 boards ) while the vertical mounted have the numbers 22-02-xxxx and 22-18-xxxx respectively. My catalog could be wrong but I think one should check the number. Dwight >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > >Hi > That is too bad. Digikey only list up to 12 pins. I do question >the part number though. Looking at the digikey catalog, the part >numbers of 22-18-xxxx are vertical mount and not the right >angle mount. They show 22-15-xxxx numbers for the right angle >mount. The xxxx numbers are different for the same numbers of pins >in the two different groups. I'd recommend getting a sample unit >before buying a pile of them. >Dwight > >>From: "Carroll Waddell" >> >>The H8 had 2 25 pin connectors on each card. >>CEW >> >>Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> >>>Hi >>> My Digikey catalog has the PC board connectors I think >>>you are talking about. As I recall, the H8 had 2 connectors >>>with a small piece of plastic to hold them aligned. I >>>wouldn't think this would be needed if they were soldered >>>with a pin strip holding them aligned. I don't recall >>>how many pins the connectors had. The ones in the catalog >>>only go up to 12 pins. >>>12 pins Gold WM3221-ND 112.39 for 100 ea >>>12 pins solder WM3010-ND 91.08 for 100 ea >>> I'd have to look at the boards in my machine. You shouldn't >>>use gold unless the pins on the mother board are also gold. >>>Later >>>Dwight >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>From: "Carroll Waddell" >>>> >>>>regarding connectors: >>>>No I haven't tried them. >>>>CEW >>>> >>>>Eric J. Rothfus wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Did you try Digikey? >>>>> >>>>>-- >>>>>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>-- >>>>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >>> >>> >>> > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Apr 19 20:13:52 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:13:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8-5 Manuals Message-ID: <20040420011352.5868680AA@outbox.allstream.net> Hi Everybody, >> Does anyone have the manuals for the H8-5 that I could borrow and copy? >> Carroll Waddell >Yes, I have them. There the manual itself, the schematic, and an >illustration booklet. But I don't have a scanner; if Dave Dunfield has >trouble getting them up, let me know and I could make a copy for you. This weekend I scanned several of the H8 manuals (including the H8-5 manual). They have just been posted to the H8 section of my geriatric ward: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html Select the H8 link and scroll down to the end of the page and you will find them. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From labomb at rochester.rr.com Mon Apr 19 20:20:19 2004 From: labomb at rochester.rr.com (Scott LaBombard) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:20:19 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] References: <200404192214.PAA08006@clulw009.amd.com> <00d301c4265d$d9193b60$05a8a8c0@IBMD9HY10WBGXB> <4084778B.7030208@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <014401c42675$a52ee6c0$05a8a8c0@IBMD9HY10WBGXB> Carroll ... the part number that you provided was for the gold plated part. Curious ... if you have the tin plated motherboard pins, why are you searching for the 2251? Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carroll Waddell" To: Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 9:06 PM Subject: Re: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] > Some H8's may have had gold contacts, but the 3 that I have all had tin > plated contacts. > CEW > > Scott LaBombard wrote: > > >Dwight ... > > > >Without hauling out one of my H8's to confirm ...I believe that the > >stock motherboard uses gold pins. > > > >I assumed that Carroll provided the correct part number ...which > >would seem to confirm that belief. > > > >Otherwise, I agree with your comments. That's why I mentioned > >using tin contacts as a last resort (if at all)... > > > > > >Scott > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > >To: > >Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 6:14 PM > >Subject: Re: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] > > > > > > > > > >>>From: "Scott LaBombard" > >>> > >>>Folks, > >>> > >>>A quick glance at http://www.molex.com/product/pcb/4455t.html shows that > >>>there are a couple of alternatives for this part. If you want to forgo > >>>'select gold' > >>>and instead go for the plain old 'gold' contact part, then your part > >>> > >>> > >number > > > > > >>>would be 22-18-2253. > >>> > >>>The folks at http://www.arrow.com/aws/pg_welcome have this part in stock. > >>>In addition, they sell to individuals and have no minimum order > >>> > >>> > >requirement. > > > > > >>>They show a price of $4.27 per unit. > >>> > >>>There's also a tin contact variation as a last resort ... > >>> > >>> > >>>Scott > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>Hi > >> As I noted, you should only use gold if the mother board also > >>has gold pins. Never mix metals on pin contacts. Contacts go > >>bad fast enough as it is without adding electrolysis. > >> For those that worry about contact and want to protect their > >>older machine, placing some Dow-Corning #4 silicon grease on > >>the pins will improve contact and protect them from normal > >>electrolysis. There are issues in a salt air environment > >>but I've not had any problems and I live within 2 miles of > >>the coast. The grease has no other electrical problems and > >>is itself, non-conductive. I use it on, switch connacts, TV > >>tuners, EPROM pins, card edge connectors, lamp sockets, power > >>connectors, screws that hold regulators or power transistors > >>and just about anywhere that one has metal to metal that > >>has to carry current. I have a HiFi amplifier that has a > >>toroidal transformer. This used to cause the power switch > >>to arc and stick together ( I suspect the core was saturating > >>on the first cycle ). I put the grease in the switch and > >>it has been working fine for over 10 years now. When I > >>worked at Intel, we did some studies on card edge connectors. > >>The normal gold on gold contact had about 10 to 15 milli-ohms > >>of resistance. With the grease, this dropped to under 2 milli-ohms. > >>This was true even after the environmental chamber at 90% > >>humidity where the normal gold on gold would degrade to around > >>30 to 50 milli-ohms. They chose not to use it there because > >>once it got on a surface, one could not get lettering stamps to > >>work. This isn't an issue for us because we rarely add such > >>to our machines. > >>Dwight > >> > >> > >>-- > >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > >> > >> > > > >-- > >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > > > > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Apr 19 20:59:12 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:59:12 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] In-Reply-To: <014401c42675$a52ee6c0$05a8a8c0@IBMD9HY10WBGXB> References: <200404192214.PAA08006@clulw009.amd.com> <00d301c4265d$d9193b60$05a8a8c0@IBMD9HY10WBGXB> <4084778B.7030208@sc.rr.com> <014401c42675$a52ee6c0$05a8a8c0@IBMD9HY10WBGXB> Message-ID: <408483F0.8070605@sc.rr.com> This part number can from someone in the group, but I'm not sure who it was. I believe they used to work for Heathkit. Carroll Scott LaBombard wrote: >Carroll ... the part number that you provided was for the gold plated >part. Curious ... if you have the tin plated motherboard pins, why are >you searching for the 2251? > > >Scott > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Carroll Waddell" >To: >Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 9:06 PM >Subject: Re: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] > > > > >>Some H8's may have had gold contacts, but the 3 that I have all had tin >>plated contacts. >>CEW >> >>Scott LaBombard wrote: >> >> >> >>>Dwight ... >>> >>>Without hauling out one of my H8's to confirm ...I believe that the >>>stock motherboard uses gold pins. >>> >>>I assumed that Carroll provided the correct part number ...which >>>would seem to confirm that belief. >>> >>>Otherwise, I agree with your comments. That's why I mentioned >>>using tin contacts as a last resort (if at all)... >>> >>> >>>Scott >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >>>To: >>>Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 6:14 PM >>>Subject: Re: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>From: "Scott LaBombard" >>>>> >>>>>Folks, >>>>> >>>>>A quick glance at http://www.molex.com/product/pcb/4455t.html shows >>>>> >>>>> >that > > >>>>>there are a couple of alternatives for this part. If you want to forgo >>>>>'select gold' >>>>>and instead go for the plain old 'gold' contact part, then your part >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>number >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>would be 22-18-2253. >>>>> >>>>>The folks at http://www.arrow.com/aws/pg_welcome have this part in >>>>> >>>>> >stock. > > >>>>>In addition, they sell to individuals and have no minimum order >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>requirement. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>They show a price of $4.27 per unit. >>>>> >>>>>There's also a tin contact variation as a last resort ... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Scott >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Hi >>>>As I noted, you should only use gold if the mother board also >>>>has gold pins. Never mix metals on pin contacts. Contacts go >>>>bad fast enough as it is without adding electrolysis. >>>>For those that worry about contact and want to protect their >>>>older machine, placing some Dow-Corning #4 silicon grease on >>>>the pins will improve contact and protect them from normal >>>>electrolysis. There are issues in a salt air environment >>>>but I've not had any problems and I live within 2 miles of >>>>the coast. The grease has no other electrical problems and >>>>is itself, non-conductive. I use it on, switch connacts, TV >>>>tuners, EPROM pins, card edge connectors, lamp sockets, power >>>>connectors, screws that hold regulators or power transistors >>>>and just about anywhere that one has metal to metal that >>>>has to carry current. I have a HiFi amplifier that has a >>>>toroidal transformer. This used to cause the power switch >>>>to arc and stick together ( I suspect the core was saturating >>>>on the first cycle ). I put the grease in the switch and >>>>it has been working fine for over 10 years now. When I >>>>worked at Intel, we did some studies on card edge connectors. >>>>The normal gold on gold contact had about 10 to 15 milli-ohms >>>>of resistance. With the grease, this dropped to under 2 milli-ohms. >>>>This was true even after the environmental chamber at 90% >>>>humidity where the normal gold on gold would degrade to around >>>>30 to 50 milli-ohms. They chose not to use it there because >>>>once it got on a surface, one could not get lettering stamps to >>>>work. This isn't an issue for us because we rarely add such >>>>to our machines. >>>>Dwight >>>> >>>> >>>>-- >>>>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>-- >>>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Apr 19 21:00:58 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:00:58 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] NEW - SEBHC web page and archives online! Message-ID: <000601c4267b$5339b420$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> SEBHC has its own identity! Visit the website at www.sebhc.org or tour the archives at archive.sebhc.org The Archive is accessed via ftp and _does not_ support anonymous access - you MUST login as user "heathkit", password "hdos8bit" (no quotes). Just to round things out, mail to the list can now be sent to sebhc at sebhc.org. You will find directories for DOCUMENTATION, SOFTWARE and UPLOADS. The UPLOAD directory is your place to contribute material for archiving - I will move material into the appropriate folders on a regular basis. If you have manuals, software, articles, etc. this is the place to share. You will find a growing selection of HUG software in the software directory. I'm trying to clear copyright issues as we go, so if you have any doubts about the legality of sharing a particular item, please let me know your concerns before you upload the material. Let me know what else you need to keep the bits flowing. Thanks again to Patrick Rigney and Eric Rothfus for their work upfront and behind the scenes to make this all work. And thanks to all of you for making SEBHC an active and viable entity! Jack -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Apr 19 21:22:40 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 19:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] Message-ID: <200404200222.TAA08345@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I just did a search on the molex site. The web page was incorrect. Instead of 4455t, it should have been 4455s. Here are the corrected numbers: Right angle Vertical Solder 22-15-2256 22-02-7253 Select Au 22-16-2250 22-18-2251 Au 22-16-2251 22-18-2253 I got these right from the molex web page so I'm sure they are correct. I would guess that the correct ones would be 22-16-2250. I hope this clears things up a little. Dwight >From: "Carroll Waddell" > >This part number can from someone in the group, but I'm not sure who it >was. I believe they used to work for Heathkit. >Carroll > >Scott LaBombard wrote: > >>Carroll ... the part number that you provided was for the gold plated >>part. Curious ... if you have the tin plated motherboard pins, why are >>you searching for the 2251? >> >> ---snip--- -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Apr 19 21:40:28 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:40:28 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H8 memory test in H17 boot ROM Message-ID: <000401c42680$d86c6bb0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> The infamous memory test presented in the Heath H8 memory board manuals is incorporated into the H17 ROM. Normal boot entry is at 030 000, but the memory test is found at 030 003. The procedure is outlined on page 4 of the H17 manual - load the jump address into PC, read the top of memory value from 050 000 and run the test (key sequence - REG, PC ALTER, 030 000, ALTER, MEM, 050 000,GO,GO [yes, GO x 2]). The data register should start counting up from 000 to 377 and then repeat until you reset the machine. For most of us, the count will fail somewhere along the line and then the bad memory location will need to be decoded from the info in HL as per the memory manuals. Or just swap boards/chips/addresses until the damn thing boots and worry about the bad chip(s) later when your programs won't run. Jack -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From labomb at rochester.rr.com Mon Apr 19 21:45:18 2004 From: labomb at rochester.rr.com (Scott LaBombard) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 22:45:18 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] References: <200404200222.TAA08345@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <004001c42681$85fec700$05a8a8c0@IBMD9HY10WBGXB> To be specific ...the original part number provided was incorrect. I didn't notice that the parts were not the required right angle parts ... looks like you have the correct part ...thx Dwight. My curiosity got the best of me ...just checked and two of my H8's are of the gold pin variety. Also just checked three spare boards ... my H8-5 uses tin plated contacts, my H8-4 serial and H8-2 parallel boards use gold plated contacts. Fun stuff ... Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 10:22 PM Subject: Re: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] > Hi > I just did a search on the molex site. > The web page was incorrect. Instead of 4455t, it should have been 4455s. > Here are the corrected numbers: > > Right angle Vertical > Solder 22-15-2256 22-02-7253 > Select Au 22-16-2250 22-18-2251 > Au 22-16-2251 22-18-2253 > > I got these right from the molex web page so I'm sure they > are correct. I would guess that the correct ones would be 22-16-2250. > I hope this clears things up a little. > Dwight > > > >From: "Carroll Waddell" > > > >This part number can from someone in the group, but I'm not sure who it > >was. I believe they used to work for Heathkit. > >Carroll > > > >Scott LaBombard wrote: > > > >>Carroll ... the part number that you provided was for the gold plated > >>part. Curious ... if you have the tin plated motherboard pins, why are > >>you searching for the 2251? > >> > >> > ---snip--- > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Mon Apr 19 23:16:41 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:16:41 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: ANSWER: General Comments from Mouser website.] References: <200404192214.PAA08006@clulw009.amd.com> <00d301c4265d$d9193b60$05a8a8c0@IBMD9HY10WBGXB> <4084778B.7030208@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <4084A429.FF9@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > Some H8's may have had gold contacts, but the 3 that I have all had tin > plated contacts. The first H8's had tin plated connectors. Heath (mistakenly) thought they could get away with the cheaper tin connectors. They were wrong. The tin connectors had intermittents and were a reliability headache. Later models used gold plated connectors. Tin *does* work for connectors *if* certain conditions are met. First, you need high contact pressure; tin oxide is soft, and the high pressure breaks through the oxide film to make connection in spite of the oxide. Second, you want redundant contacts; more than one path for the current (for example, a contact that pinches the pin from two or more sides). As long as either point of contact connects, you have continuity. Third, you need a minimum of voltage and current to break down the oxide film; tin works poorly below 10 milliamps and 1 volt. As it turns out, NONE of these conditions were met by the H8 connectors. Thus, tin was a terrible choice. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Apr 20 08:24:01 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:24:01 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 connectors Message-ID: <40852471.2030600@sc.rr.com> I was wondering how many people would be interested in getting some gold plated H8 card connectors. I would like some, but can't spring for the large number that some dealers require. CEW -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Tue Apr 20 10:57:24 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 08:57:24 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] H8 connectors References: <40852471.2030600@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <40854864.6881@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > > I was wondering how many people would be interested in getting some gold > plated H8 card connectors. I would like some, but can't spring for the > large number that some dealers require. I would buy a dozen. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dan at ekoan.com Tue Apr 20 10:04:07 2004 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 11:04:07 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 connectors In-Reply-To: <40852471.2030600@sc.rr.com> References: <40852471.2030600@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040420110327.052a3050@enigma> At 09:24 AM 4/20/04, you wrote: >I was wondering how many people would be interested in getting some gold >plated H8 card connectors. I would like some, but can't spring for the >large number that some dealers require. I'd be interested in perhaps as many as 20. Cheers, Dan -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Apr 20 12:59:51 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 connectors Message-ID: <200404201759.KAA08965@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Before everyone replaces all their connectors, remember what I've said about the silicon grease ( DC#4 ). It is really quite remarkable how well it works. I also keep and repair pinball machines. The older solid state ones use the larger tin pin connectors. Over the years, these get flaky. Applying some of the grease and a few insertions brings them back to life. No soldering or desoldering that can damage the boards. Dwight ( Why do I keep getting the feeling that no one is listening. ) >From: "Lee Hart" > >Carroll Waddell wrote: >> >> I was wondering how many people would be interested in getting some gold >> plated H8 card connectors. I would like some, but can't spring for the >> large number that some dealers require. > >I would buy a dozen. >-- >"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the >world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade >-- >Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Apr 20 15:00:22 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:00:22 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H8 connectors In-Reply-To: <200404201759.KAA08965@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <000a01c42712$1d8a3d30$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Dwight, You're coming in loud and clear - I've used Nyogel 759G in the same role - this is a synthetic grease designed specifically for lubricating tin-lead contacts and reducing/preventing fretting corrosion. It's been superceded by 760G which also includes a copper deactivator, but either will do wonders for reducing board insertion force and wiping wear on pin contacts. You won't believe the difference on an H8 board after you've applied a coating to the pins. It's even more dramatic on the large pins on a SWTPc system. Take a look at www.nyelubricants.com for a lot more info on their various synthetic lubricants - the white papers on multi-pin automotive products and the like are pretty interesting. The Big Three automakes all specify these lubes for assembly of their wiring harness connectors. The stuff sells for about $50 for a 500g (1 lb) container; I'm negotiating a partial container and will resell some if people are interested. The other part of this process - which should really come first - is cleaning the contacts - if you don't know about Caig Labs products, take a look here - www.caig.com . I use DeOxit to clean old contacts (including ICs and sockets) and then, at least for bus connectors, follow up with Nyogel. Great for keyboards too. Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Dwight K. Elvey > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 1:00 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] H8 connectors > > > Hi > Before everyone replaces all their connectors, remember what > I've said about the silicon grease ( DC#4 ). It is really > quite remarkable how well it works. I also keep and repair > pinball machines. The older solid state ones use the larger > tin pin connectors. Over the years, these get flaky. Applying > some of the grease and a few insertions brings them back to > life. No soldering or desoldering that can damage the boards. Dwight > > ( Why do I keep getting the feeling that no one is listening. ) > > > >From: "Lee Hart" > > > >Carroll Waddell wrote: > >> > >> I was wondering how many people would be interested in > getting some > >> gold plated H8 card connectors. I would like some, but > can't spring > >> for the large number that some dealers require. > > > >I would buy a dozen. > >-- > >"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the > >world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade > >-- > >Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 > leeahart_at_earthlink.net > > > >-- > >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Apr 20 16:05:37 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 connectors Message-ID: <200404202105.OAA09088@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Jack It sounds like good stuff. There is also a product that one can get through HiFi shops but I forget the name. The trick with any of these things is that they have poor film strength ( don't make very good lubricants ) and keep the air from the contacts. One does have to be careful. Some of these things can harm some types of plastics. That is why I've stuck with the DC#4. I know that is doesn't dissolve any plastics. The film strength issue is why ordinary petroleum lubes don't work. Some of the products like you have here work better than DC#4 in salt environments, like on boats. The DC#4 tends to react and make a glass like oxide. If auto people are using it, it most likely works wonders. This is about the nasties environment that a person can thing of. Dwight >From: "Jack Rubin" > >Dwight, > >You're coming in loud and clear - > >I've used Nyogel 759G in the same role - this is a synthetic grease >designed specifically for lubricating tin-lead contacts and >reducing/preventing fretting corrosion. It's been superceded by 760G >which also includes a copper deactivator, but either will do wonders for >reducing board insertion force and wiping wear on pin contacts. You >won't believe the difference on an H8 board after you've applied a >coating to the pins. It's even more dramatic on the large pins on a >SWTPc system. Take a look at www.nyelubricants.com for a lot more info >on their various synthetic lubricants - the white papers on multi-pin >automotive products and the like are pretty interesting. The Big Three >automakes all specify these lubes for assembly of their wiring harness >connectors. The stuff sells for about $50 for a 500g (1 lb) container; >I'm negotiating a partial container and will resell some if people are >interested. > >The other part of this process - which should really come first - is >cleaning the contacts - if you don't know about Caig Labs products, take >a look here - www.caig.com . I use DeOxit to clean old contacts >(including ICs and sockets) and then, at least for bus connectors, >follow up with Nyogel. Great for keyboards too. > >Jack > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of >> Dwight K. Elvey >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 1:00 PM >> To: sebhc at sebhc.org >> Subject: Re: [sebhc] H8 connectors >> >> >> Hi >> Before everyone replaces all their connectors, remember what >> I've said about the silicon grease ( DC#4 ). It is really >> quite remarkable how well it works. I also keep and repair >> pinball machines. The older solid state ones use the larger >> tin pin connectors. Over the years, these get flaky. Applying >> some of the grease and a few insertions brings them back to >> life. No soldering or desoldering that can damage the boards. Dwight >> >> ( Why do I keep getting the feeling that no one is listening. ) >> >> >> >From: "Lee Hart" >> > >> >Carroll Waddell wrote: >> >> >> >> I was wondering how many people would be interested in >> getting some >> >> gold plated H8 card connectors. I would like some, but >> can't spring >> >> for the large number that some dealers require. >> > >> >I would buy a dozen. >> >-- >> >"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the >> >world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade >> >-- >> >Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 >> leeahart_at_earthlink.net >> > >> >-- >> >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> > >> >> >> -- >> Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From wa7zze at juno.com Tue Apr 20 16:47:56 2004 From: wa7zze at juno.com (wa7zze at juno.com) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:47:56 GMT Subject: [sebhc] H8 start-up diagnostics? Message-ID: <20040420.144841.510.94950@webmail13.lax.untd.com> Greetings all: I would like to fire up my H8 to see if it works. All I have is the H8 itself, I do not have a terminal or any other peripherals--and no books. Am guessing there is some procedure to see if the CPU is working correctly. Anybody know the magic keystrokes? Many thanks! Chuck / WA7ZZE ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Apr 20 17:00:26 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:00:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 start-up diagnostics? Message-ID: <20040420220026.59166B4892@outbox.allstream.net> At 21:47 20/04/2004 GMT, you wrote: > >Greetings all: > >I would like to fire up my H8 to see if it works. All I have is the H8 itself, I do not have a terminal or any other peripherals--and no books. Am guessing there is some procedure to see if the CPU is working correctly. Anybody know the magic keystrokes? > >Many thanks! > >Chuck / WA7ZZE Hi Chuck, I just posted the H8 operation manual (PDF) to my "old computers" web site: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html Go to the H8 section and scroll to the end and you will see a link to it. The very first section has some test procedures. There are a few other original H8 manuals there as well - and more to come (when I find the time to do more scanning). Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From wa7zze at juno.com Tue Apr 20 17:59:09 2004 From: wa7zze at juno.com (wa7zze at juno.com) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:59:09 GMT Subject: [sebhc] H8 start-up diagnostics? Message-ID: <20040420.155923.27939.427262@webmail02.lax.untd.com> Thanks, Dave! I'll give it a try. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Apr 21 07:50:26 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 07:50:26 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] new postings to SEBHC archives Message-ID: <004901c4279f$38926ca0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> I've posted the PAM37 Operation Manual to the archive. And thank you to whoever uploaded the H9 and H19 manuals! If possible, when posting material please try to use the Heath part number as part of the title to make reference a little easier (e.g. PAM37-595-2908.pdf rather than PAM-manual.pdf). I've been using Acrobat 6.0 to create my .pdf files, using the Version 5 compatability setting which means the documents should be readable with Acrobat Reader 5.0 and forward. If you have trouble reading a doc, please be sure your reader is at least at the 5.0 level. Jack -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Wed Apr 21 08:15:45 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:15:45 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] new postings to SEBHC archives In-Reply-To: <004901c4279f$38926ca0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> References: <004901c4279f$38926ca0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <40867401.5060704@sc.rr.com> How do I access this archive? Carroll Jack Rubin wrote: >I've posted the PAM37 Operation Manual to the archive. And thank you to >whoever uploaded the H9 and H19 manuals! > >If possible, when posting material please try to use the Heath part >number as part of the title to make reference a little easier (e.g. >PAM37-595-2908.pdf rather than PAM-manual.pdf). > >I've been using Acrobat 6.0 to create my .pdf files, using the Version 5 >compatability setting which means the documents should be readable with >Acrobat Reader 5.0 and forward. If you have trouble reading a doc, >please be sure your reader is at least at the 5.0 level. > >Jack > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Apr 21 09:43:08 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 07:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] new postings to SEBHC archives In-Reply-To: <40867401.5060704@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040421144308.12524.qmail@web80202.mail.yahoo.com> ftp to archive.sebhc.org; user = heathkit, password = hdos8bit Carroll Waddell wrote:How do I access this archive? Carroll Jack Rubin wrote: >I've posted the PAM37 Operation Manual to the archive. And thank you to >whoever uploaded the H9 and H19 manuals! > >If possible, when posting material please try to use the Heath part >number as part of the title to make reference a little easier (e.g. >PAM37-595-2908.pdf rather than PAM-manual.pdf). > >I've been using Acrobat 6.0 to create my .pdf files, using the Version 5 >compatability setting which means the documents should be readable with >Acrobat Reader 5.0 and forward. If you have trouble reading a doc, >please be sure your reader is at least at the 5.0 level. > >Jack > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Wed Apr 21 13:02:43 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:02:43 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] new postings to SEBHC archives References: <004901c4279f$38926ca0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <4086B743.6B82@earthlink.net> Jack Rubin wrote: > If possible, when posting material please try to use the Heath part > number as part of the title to make reference a little easier (e.g. > PAM37-595-2908.pdf rather than PAM-manual.pdf). > > I've been using Acrobat 6.0 to create my .pdf files, using the > Version 5 compatability setting which means the documents should > be readable with Acrobat Reader 5.0 and forward. If you have trouble > reading a doc, please be sure your reader is at least at the 5.0 > level. Recognize that many of us interested in old computers are also USING old computers. For example, I do all my email and web browsing with DOS 6.20, Windows 3.1, and Netscape 3.04. A long name like "PAM37-595-2908.pdf" gets truncated to "PAM37-59.PDF". If there were any spaces in the name (an illegal character in 8x3 filenames), it would be totally unreadable. Acrobat Reader 3.0 is the last version available for Win 3.1. An Acrobat 5.0 file is unreadable. There is nothing in the Heath manuals that requires the later format. I also live in a rural area, and only have dial-up access. Using huge file formats adds tremendously to my download time. My worst-case scenario (which is happening ever more often) is that someone scans a 1-page text-only document and posts it as a "long and flowery filename.pdf" that takes forever to download, and then can't be opened because Acrobat 3.0 can't read it, and can't be deleted because of the d**ned spaces in the file name! I would like to thank people like Jack for taking the time to scan and post documents like these to save these manuals. I realize that it is easiest to use whatever default format your computer and software provides. But, if the goal is to make it as widely availalbe as possible, and to *remain* available in the future despite the contantly shifting software landscape, then it may be worth a little more time to use the simplest format that does the job; not the newest/greatest. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Wed Apr 21 12:08:17 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:08:17 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] new postings to SEBHC archives In-Reply-To: <4086B743.6B82@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > I would like to thank people like Jack for taking the time to scan and > post documents like these to save these manuals. I realize that it is > easiest to use whatever default format your computer and software > provides. But, if the goal is to make it as widely availalbe as > possible, and to *remain* available in the future despite the contantly > shifting software landscape, then it may be worth a little more time to > use the simplest format that does the job; not the newest/greatest. Lee, reading into your email, I am assuming that by "simplest" format, you mean plain text? --Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Wed Apr 21 14:47:03 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:47:03 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] new postings to SEBHC archives References: Message-ID: <4086CFB7.6B82@earthlink.net> Patrick wrote: > Lee, reading into your email, I am assuming that by "simplest" > format, you mean plain text? It depends on the original document. If it is just plain typewritten text, then a plain text format is sufficient to reproduce it online. For example, all the original Digital Research CP/M manuals are simple typewritten documents. If the original was prepared on a word processor with a proportional font and a few basic tables and charts, then HTML is a good choice. It reproduces well, and even lets the text be reformatted for easier on-screen reading (which is probably all most people will do). If there are simple black-and-white illustrations, like schematics or assembly drawings, then GIF files work well. They are compact and can be read by pretty much any system that can go on the web. If there are photographs or very complex illustrations, then JPG is a logical choice. They should be compressed to suit the information content. In other words, don't produce a high-resolution gigantic file of a fuzzy photograph. If there is something about the document that requires that it be precisely reproduced, then PDF formats make sense. They are vastly larger and more complex, however. Finally, it makes sense to use the oldest, simplest version of any particular format. It is almost always the smallest, fastest, and most easily read by the largest audience. New software always has support to save files in older formats. Only use the newer formats if there is some feature that is actually required. Buying a new program and using its default formats is really doing marketing for them. You will be sending files that only those who have also bought the latest version can use. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Apr 21 13:18:06 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:18:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [sebhc] new postings to SEBHC archives Message-ID: <20040421181806.4AFE3B4887@outbox.allstream.net> >Recognize that many of us interested in old computers are also USING old >computers. For example, I do all my email and web browsing with DOS >6.20, Windows 3.1, and Netscape 3.04. I'm with you - DOS 5.0 - Win 3.1 when I really have to. Unfortuantely more and more web pages are unreadable with my ancient version of Netscape. I had to setup a winblows system in order to be able to use one of my scanners, however I use Adobe 4.0 which I find is compatible with 3.01, at least within the subset that I use. You should be able to read all of the documents that I have scanned. Acrobat 5 is a bloated piece of garbage (4 loads on the old 166 I have sentanced to winblows in about 10 seconds - 5 takes nearly a minute) - I have flushed it. I also find that 5 is not nearly as compatible with older versions, meaning that I probably won't even bother trying to download PDF's from the sebhc site. I also scan the docs in Black and White (1 bit) at the minimum resolution at which they can still be read without unreasonable effort. Some of the larger manuals get up to 2mb, however this is still accessable over a dial-up (I know, as I am on one) - in contrast, some of the other manuals which I have put up are fewer pages, but having been scanned by others without regard for size are 10, 20 even 30mb! I also keep my own web pages very simple - generic hand written HTML, no javascript, no microsloth custom extensions etc. It reads fine under old versions of netscape (unfortunately my wife who maintains the company page uses Microslots f***page which renders those pages unreadable to a good many people). I avoid long filenames where at all possible (I hate having to type the damn '~'s) and NEVER put spaces into a filename - even when I am forced to work on winblows. Can I register my vode for simplifying things as well? (Acrobloat 5 - arghhh!!!) Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Wed Apr 21 14:26:23 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:26:23 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] new postings to SEBHC archives In-Reply-To: <4086CFB7.6B82@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org]On Behalf Of Lee Hart > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 12:47 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] new postings to SEBHC archives > > > Patrick wrote: > > Lee, reading into your email, I am assuming that by "simplest" > > format, you mean plain text? > > It depends on the original document. If it is just plain typewritten > text, then a plain text format is sufficient to reproduce it online. For > example, all the original Digital Research CP/M manuals are simple > typewritten documents. Lee, for schematics and other mostly- or purely-graphical documents of limited size, I agree that GIF or JPEG is a better choice than PDF, and I prefer to keep them this way myself. But I disagree on the text documents. I think few of us has the time to lovingly OCR most of these documents, and even among the OCR'd documents I've been given, experience has taught me to mistrust them. I tried to OCR a couple of North Star manuals (typewritten or daisy wheel, clearly), and the results were poor, even though I have one of the best-regarded OCR products on the market. The greatest difficulty was not the gross errors, but the subtle ones that are sprinked throughout the document that result from technical detail, jargon, and abbreviation. For example, in the parts list for the North Star floppy controller board, the OCR program dropped many decimal points or misread digits, turning .1uf capacitors into 1uf capacitors, 74LS257 into 74LS251, etc. There's just a lot of manual labor involved in proofing and correcting the results, so for my money, I like PDF even when the scan is bad, because at least I can provide the neural network (albeit limited :-)) it takes to interpret it correctly. > If the original was prepared on a word processor with a proportional > font and a few basic tables and charts, then HTML is a good choice. It > reproduces well, and even lets the text be reformatted for easier > on-screen reading (which is probably all most people will do). You're asking a lot, I think. It takes a lot of work to reproduce documents in this form. Have you tried? You have all of the problems of scanning and OCR'ing the text for starters, and then you have to produce the markup that reproduces the layout, scanning images separately when necessary. It's labor-intensive. What you end up with may be a good result, but it's also a complex form in that it's comprised of one or more HTML files and a number of separate graphics. You can ZIP it into a single file, of course, but it's still a BOM. Short of PDF, I think ZIP archives of page scans as GIF or TIFF are probably most useful and compatible, but I personally prefer PDF because of the relative ease of producing paper copies from it--it's a single document form. For example, I have a PDF scan of the MTR-90 listing. Because it's all in one document, I am able to easily print it in a two-up layout double-sided (so four "virtual" pages per physical sheet), reducing it from 144 pages printed to just 36--easy to handle/flip through. I don't know of any printer driver or graphics application that would allow me to take 144 separate GIF files and just merge them into a single document stream for the printer so it can do the two-up double-sided layout. As for naming conventions, I favor the use of long filenames, simply because they are more descriptive and it's easier to figure out if what you need is there (without reading a separate index file that may not always be kept up to date--remember, people are volunteering their time to make this stuff available at all). All of the *nix FTP clients that I've ever used, as well as the command line DOS and Windows clients, all allow you to rename a file when you request it ("GET [localfilename]"), or even just type it to the screen ("GET -"). That's just standard FTP behavior. The two GUI FTP tools I most frequently use also have this facility. Even browsing an FTP site in Internet Exploder, you can right-click on a file to save it locally with a different name. However, I also agree that spaces and most other punctuation should be banished from the names used in the archive, because they are just too troublesome on the command line, and in some cases are even the cause of tragic accidents (local file overwrites, etc.). Opinions aside, I would certainly be happy to help any member get an archive document in a form they can use. I think it's well within the scope of the group for people to ask that someone help out by printing a document and mailing it to them, and I for one would actively step up to facilitate this process. Also, I have a server that runs ghostscript for a fax application, and I am reasonably certain that I can somehow coax at least a one-TIFF-per-page form out of any PDF. I will try it and report back. If it works, I'll be happy to do it on request (and Jack can archive each result for future reuse). But above all, the person who's putting the time and effort into this is Jack, and while he's very generous with his time, he also has a day job that puts food on his table, and I for one am not going to be too picky about the form of what's available, because it might otherwise not be readily available at all. I've spent a lot of time and had a lot of both successes and disappointments trying to get the documents I need in any form at all. If we all work together to help each other, in keeping with the spirit of the group as it was originally, I think everyone will get what they need, one way or another. And, THANK YOU, Jack. Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Apr 21 15:07:58 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 16:07:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [sebhc] new postings to SEBHC archives Message-ID: <20040421200758.8572F1EC3EE@outbox.allstream.net> >But I disagree on the text documents. I think few of us has the time to >lovingly OCR most of these documents, and even among the OCR'd documents >I've been given, experience has taught me to mistrust them. I tried to OCR >a couple of North Star manuals (typewritten or daisy wheel, clearly), and >the results were poor, even though I have one of the best-regarded OCR >products on the market. The greatest difficulty was not the gross errors, >but the subtle ones that are sprinked throughout the document that result >from technical detail, jargon, and abbreviation. For example, in the parts >list for the North Star floppy controller board, the OCR program dropped >many decimal points or misread digits, turning .1uf capacitors into 1uf >capacitors, 74LS257 into 74LS251, etc. There's just a lot of manual labor >involved in proofing and correcting the results, so for my money, I like PDF >even when the scan is bad, because at least I can provide the neural network >(albeit limited :-)) it takes to interpret it correctly. I agree - All of my original documents which were text files I continue to maintain as text files, however I have given up on trying to OCR and convert paper documents back to text. Instead I use old-format PDF's and "text qualtity" resolution - it's much bigger than text, but at least it's still pretty much managable - what really should be avoided is 10mb+ PDF's these are essentially unobtainable to someone stuck with dial-up (hey but at least the air's clean out here!) >> If the original was prepared on a word processor with a proportional >> font and a few basic tables and charts, then HTML is a good choice. >What you end up with may be a good result, but it's also a >complex form in that it's comprised of one or more HTML files and a number >of separate graphics. You can ZIP it into a single file, of course, but >it's still a BOM. I disagree with HTML - I find that documents which have been converted to HTML rarely print at one page per page --- I don't know how many pages I've wasted with 1-2 lines. I also don't like the multiple-files and directoriies which you end up with in a complete HTML document - For most documents which are either scanned or require pictures, I use PDF. >As for naming conventions, I favor the use of long filenames, simply because >they are more descriptive and it's easier to figure out if what you need is >there (without reading a separate index file that may not always be kept up >to date--remember, people are volunteering their time to make this stuff >available at all). All of the *nix FTP clients that I've ever used, as well >as the command line DOS and Windows clients, all allow you to rename a file >when you request it ("GET [localfilename]"), or even just >type it to the screen ("GET -"). That's just standard FTP >behavior. The two GUI FTP tools I most frequently use also have this >facility. Even browsing an FTP site in Internet Exploder, you can >right-click on a file to save it locally with a different name. However, I >also agree that spaces and most other punctuation should be banished from >the names used in the archive, because they are just too troublesome on the >command line, and in some cases are even the cause of tragic accidents >(local file overwrites, etc.). I too agree that long filenames (while I don't like them - way too much typing for a command-line guy like me) are here to stay, and in some cases necessary - what I really dislike is spaces in the names. As you point out, it's not too bad when you are using FTP, but long names with embedded spaces in ZIP and other archive formats are a real pain in the a**. When I unzip a ZIP and get "unable to create file "read me now", I see red - why not use "ReadMe". Another problem is files that are not unique within 8 characters - when you unzip an archive contining: MyOldComputerFiles1 MyOldComputerFiles2 - and - MyOldComputerFiles3 DOS ZIP will happly name all three "MyOldCom" - at least it prompts and lets you rename the files - something I wish it did for invalid names. What I do not to access such files, is unpack the archive on a windows system, then use the network client to connect from my DOS box - then windows will translate the names in valid dos names so I can copy them off. >Opinions aside, I would certainly be happy to help any member get an archive >document in a form they can use. I think it's well within the scope of the >group for people to ask that someone help out by printing a document and >mailing it to them, and I for one would actively step up to facilitate this >process. Also, I have a server that runs ghostscript for a fax application, >and I am reasonably certain that I can somehow coax at least a >one-TIFF-per-page form out of any PDF. I will try it and report back. If >it works, I'll be happy to do it on request (and Jack can archive each >result for future reuse). > >But above all, the person who's putting the time and effort into this is >Jack, and while he's very generous with his time, he also has a day job that >puts food on his table, and I for one am not going to be too picky about the >form of what's available, because it might otherwise not be readily >available at all. I've spent a lot of time and had a lot of both successes >and disappointments trying to get the documents I need in any form at all. >If we all work together to help each other, in keeping with the spirit of >the group as it was originally, I think everyone will get what they need, >one way or another. And, THANK YOU, Jack. Yes, thanks very much to Jack and everyone who is helping preserve this material. As you say, having it available in any form is far better than not having it at all! Btw: I don't think this thread is in any way intended to slight anyone for the formats they are using - just trying to point out that some choices do make it difficult for some of us, and asking that where it does not make a difference, if a different choice might be selected in the future. Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 21 15:49:42 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 13:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] new postings to SEBHC archives Message-ID: <200404212049.NAA11209@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dave Dunfield" ---snip--- > >I too agree that long filenames (while I don't like them - way too much typing >for a command-line guy like me) are here to stay, and in some cases necessary - >what I really dislike is spaces in the names. As you point out, it's not too >bad when you are using FTP, but long names with embedded spaces in ZIP and other >archive formats are a real pain in the a**. When I unzip a ZIP and get "unable >to create file "read me now", I see red - why not use "ReadMe". Another problem >is files that are not unique within 8 characters - when you unzip an archive >contining: > MyOldComputerFiles1 ---snip--- Hi I think it would be a good idea to collect these ideas and put together a list of the issues for people to read before submitting. As for OCR's, I help get some OCR'd document together a while back. We used 3 different OCR's and compared the results before we did a manual look at the results. Almost every single mistake was different from one or the other. The only places we saw much trouble was from mixed fonts, such a text in pictures. These were relatively easy to spot. The docs were of good quality though. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Wed Apr 21 18:08:30 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 16:08:30 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] new postings to SEBHC archives References: Message-ID: <4086FEEE.B1B@earthlink.net> Patrick wrote: > Lee, for schematics and other mostly- or purely-graphical documents > of limited size, I agree that GIF or JPEG is a better choice than > PDF, and I prefer to keep them this way myself. > > But I disagree on the text documents. I think few of us has the > time to lovingly OCR most of these documents I agree; it takes more time to to a better job. The person posting it may not have the time. He can spend 10 seconds a page, but not 10 minutes. > among the OCR'd documents I've been given, experience has taught me > to mistrust them. I tried to OCR a couple of North Star manuals... > The greatest difficulty was not the gross errors, but the subtle > ones that are sprinked throughout the document... turning .1uf > capacitors into 1uf capacitors, 74LS257 into 74LS251, etc. Again, I agree. You can't just OCR a document and use it without proofreading. OCR software makes too many errors. However, the error factor is precisely why I don't think scanned documents, or scanned+OCR'd documents are a good idea for critical data. Your Northstar schematic and MTR-90 listing are perfect examples. Errors in such documents critically damage the information. The reader can no longer tell if that was a 74LS257 or a 74LS251; or whether that opcode was mov a,l or mov a,1. Ideally, the MTR-90 listing would be scanned, OCR'ed, proofread, and posted in .TXT form. If errors are discovered, they can be readily corrected, and the updated file can replace the original. If it's a schematic, the fuzzy text in the GIF file can be edited back into text. But a multimegabyte PDF file is not editable, except by those few individuals who have the right software and access to the original data as a 'master' to know what needs to be changed. As a practical matter, no on is likely to ever correct errors in these PDF files. > You're asking a lot, I think. It takes a lot of work to reproduce > documents in this form. Have you tried? Yes, I have. I converted Tom Pittman's Tiny BASIC books and articles into HTML and TXT files. You can see them at http://www.IttyBittyComputers.com/index.htm Proofreading isn't that bad if you have good software that does most of the work. The OCR program that Tom used got the text 99.9+% correct (I don't know what software he used). The text editor I used (Vedit) spellchecked the resulting file, marking all opcodes, part numbers, etc. as "misspelled" (which really meant those were the ones I should check against the actual source document). So, proofreading was mainly a matter of reading it on-screen in the test editor, making corrections immediately as they were revealed. I am converting Pittman's "The First Book of Tiny BASIC" to HTML right now. The original is proportionally spaced, with a very bad font choice ("0" and "O" look identical to his OCR program). What makes it tough is that it is full of BASIC programs, which I am thoroughly checking to make *sure* they are correct and actually run. I'm using HTML so it maintains the basic appearance of the original, yet you can pull out the BASIC programs and actually run them; no need to type them in! > What you end up with may be a good result, but it's also a complex > form in that it's comprised of one or more HTML files and a number > of separate graphics. You can ZIP it into a single file, of course, > but it's still a BOM. BOM? I agree that having the text in one file, and the illustrations as separate files is awkward. So far, I haven't had to deal with that problem. All the illustrations in the Tiny BASIC books are composed with plain text. Aren't there forms of PDF that use plain text inside? Some PDF files are gigantic, and others of the same page are hardly any bigger than plain text. > And, THANK YOU, Jack. Yes, Jack; my thanks, too. I am not complaining about your effort; only pointing out that in its present form, I can't use it. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Wed Apr 21 16:53:54 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:53:54 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] new postings to SEBHC archives In-Reply-To: <20040421200758.8572F1EC3EE@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: > Btw: I don't think this thread is in any way intended to slight anyone > for the formats they are using - just trying to point out that > some choices > do make it difficult for some of us, and asking that where it > does not make > a difference, if a different choice might be selected in the future. Agreed absolutely, and I hope the tone of my message didn't give anyone that impression! I was just focused on the (eyes rolling in my head) tedious, terrible hours I've spent in the past trying to get the "best" results from scanning and OCR'ing documents (not to mention the cost of the OCR that I decided ultimately I wouldn't much use). In the end, "best" is about what works for *you*. --Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Wed Apr 21 17:15:08 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:15:08 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] new postings to SEBHC archives In-Reply-To: <4086FEEE.B1B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > Aren't there forms of PDF that use plain text inside? Some PDF files are > gigantic, and others of the same page are hardly any bigger than plain > text. Lee, yes, definitely. PDF has its roots in PostScript. The document itself is represented as a tree of objects that can be traversed to build the representation of a page. Properly laid out, the tree makes it possible for you to view parts of the document without downloading it in its entirety, which is what the Acrobat plug-in for your browser attempts to do (how well it does is partly dependent on the web server serving the document). The tree objects themselves are, in huge generalization, either graphical elements such as lines or images, or text blocks. Typically when you use the Acrobat Distiller or the PDF print driver, the text in the document you are printing becomes text blocks in the resultant PDF. So, when you make a PDF from Word, for example, the text areas in the Word document can be simply converted to PostScript/PDF text blocks, which is efficient. When you scan pages to PDF, however, the image of the page is stored as an image. This accounts for most of the size differences. But even within that, as Dave pointed out, some people will unwittingly leave their scanner set for 300dpi 24-bit color, so the resultant scan of a single page is 15MB. The same page in 300 dpi 8-bit grayscale may be just 1MB or less, and in Dave's preferred 1-bit monochrome just a few hundred K. When I started scanning stuff, I made the same mistake--I just didn't know better. I've been rescanning those documents or using PhotoShop to pare them down since. If I remember correctly, the preferred internal representation in a PDF is JPEG, so there are also quality settings that can affect the result/size. This is also the reason that PDFs of scanned documents don't compress well--JPEG is already compressed. I believe you can also have TIFF or raw bitmap in a PDF file, but I'm not sure how you choose this (I've never had to, I think JPEG is fine). The Acrobat Distiller will also down sample to meet the target "device", and I think the PDF print driver does as well (another elusive/unobvious setting). My version of Distiller has output options for Screen, Print, Press, and eBook. Screen, for example, down samples the graphics to 72dpi, which is tragic for printing. Press probably assumes you're going to a 2540 dpi Linotronic, so you're likely to see no down sampling at all. Anyway, there are a lot of settings, and not all of them are in obvious places or have obvious uses, so I think it takes some getting used to. I know I'm still learning. > Yes, Jack; my thanks, too. I am not complaining about your effort; only > pointing out that in its present form, I can't use it. Well, I just tried the ghostscript conversion from PDF to JPEG (output one file per page), and it seems to work. If you let me know what documents you are interested in, I'll convert them and hand them off to Jack for posting. Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Wed Apr 21 18:54:34 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:54:34 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8-17 controller Message-ID: <408709BA.4030309@sc.rr.com> If anyone finds, or knows where I can get a H-17 controller card for the H8, please let me know. I would like to get CP/M working again. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Apr 21 22:14:18 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:14:18 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] archiving documents - an essay Message-ID: <000001c42817$e70e7620$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Thanks for today's lively discussion of archiving and document formats! It's clear that we all share many of the same concerns - the biggest one being the preservation and sharing of information about these old systems. As Pat Swayne said earlier, truly the best way to preserve this material, be it code or documentation, is to print it out with inert inks on archival paper and store it in a controlled environment. Not being the Library of Congress, I've tried to find the best balance between the demands for access and accuracy. I'll start with the easy stuff - long file names incorporationg part and revision numbers allow easy identification of docs in a swarm of similar sounding titles, now and in the future. Sorry, you command-line folks, but since the creators of dd, ls, rm and vi had the vision to allow us really-long-and-descriptive-file.names, I will use them, always following the conventions regarding legal characters. No spaces, not even _underscores_. As for file formats, if I have material in electronic text form, that's the way I'll present it, assuming it is easily accessible (clearly a value judgement). I'd argue that Lee's TMSI documents in Magic Wand files are less useful than the same material in MS Word format. If I only have hard copy to scan, the .pdf format is clearly a common and accessible format. I will admit that I've not always been too happy with "progress" in our electronic world, but I like the current iteration of Adobe Acrobat a lot. I can scan directly to a finished document without any intermediate steps, and it knows about my scanner, the attached automatic document feeder and double-sided printing. The real clincher, as Patrick pointed out, is that the output is a single self-contained file. No assembly needed, batteries included. Normally, I scan at 2 bits ("line art") and 600 dpi, but I thought I would re-examine my settings in light of today's discussion. I did a few quick tests using Adobe Acrobat 6 - I scanned three sample pages from the PAM-37 manual at different compatability levels (i.e. version 6 only, versions 5 and 6, and versions 4, 5 and 6) and different resolutions (300, 450, and 600 dpi). Here are the sizes of the output files: file with mixed text and line art - version 4,5,6 @ 300 dpi - 35K version 4,5,6 @ 450 dpi - 52K version 4,5,6 @ 600 dpi - 69K version 5,6 @ 600 dpi - 33K version 6 @ 300 dpi - 17K version 6 @ 600 dpi - 34K file with text only ("average" page coverage) - version 6 @ 300 dpi - 13K version 5,6 @ 450 dpi - 16K version 6 @ 450 dpi - 16K version 5,6 @ 600 dpi - 23K version 6 @ 600 dpi - 23K file with text and line art with shading (not halftone) - version 6 @ 300 dpi - 28K version 5,6 @ 450 dpi - 70K version 6 @ 450 dpi - 71K version 5,6 @ 600 dpi - 100K version 6 @ 600 dpi - 98K The first thing that stands out is that version 4 compatability is unjustified in terms of file size overhead. It's just not worth doubling file size to support a version 2 generations old, and using Acrobat 4.0 is not an available option. There is almost no penalty for adding version 5 support to a version 6 scan. Beyond that, it looks like Adobe scales linearly with resolution and is relatively smart about page composition and file compression. Regardless of file size, output quality is my first concern - artifacts, dropout and rasterization are clearly visible in 300 dpi laser prints and I find it unacceptable for archival purposes. That certainly doesn't mean it is useless - I think Dave's concept of draft-quality scanning/printing for working documents and low-bandwidth situations is on target (and I've tried to address his other issues below), but again my concern is for developing an archive that is as true to the original as possible. To my eyes (a bit old and bleary at this point), 600 dpi scans printed on a laser printer (HP1100 or HP2200) are much better than 300 dpi, slightly better than 450 dpi and nearly indistinguishable from the original. I only want to scan my documents once, and often I'm scanning material that is on loan to me and not otherwise accessible. I don't want to regret lack of information later on when the original is no longer available. In sum, my decision is to make a best guess about what will be useful in the future and get on with the work at hand. My goal in setting up this site echoes the goals of Lenny Geisler, Hank Lotz, Kirk Thompson, Charlie Floto, Henry Fale and other "staunch 8/89ers" - support of 8-bit Heathkit computers, computing and computerists now and in the future. That means if you've got something to share, I want to help you share it. If I can provide something you need, I want you to have it. I've outlined the conventions I plan to follow and my rationale for the decisions I've made. If what I've outlined makes sense to you, great. If not, your contributions will be warmly welcomed in what ever format works best for you. This really is about developing a shared information resource. I will also re-iterate Patrick's offer - if it is impossible or impractical for you to access material in the archives, I will be glad to provide whatever I can in an alternative format, electronic or otherwise. Once things stabilize, I think issuing one or more CDs with related manual sets, software, etc. makes a lot of sense. And again, thank you all very much for your participation and involvement! Jack -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Fri Apr 23 10:58:33 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:58:33 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] H8 recreation/follow on References: <000001c42037$249b1590$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <40893D29.2A6E@earthlink.net> >> So... would it make sense to build a *new* H8 kit? Update the >> design to include all the basic fixes, and use modern parts >> (74HC instead 74LS, Z80 instead of 8080, modern bytewide >> memories, etc.). Jack Rubin wrote: > I think you left out a few other items - a decent motherboard with > a good ground plane and active termination The ground plane is easy to add, as are gold-plated connectors (Trionix motherboard). But I wouldn't add active termination; this is more of a band-aid to deal with the extremely fast rise/fall times of old TTL parts. By using modern 74HCxx parts, these fast edges are gone and so are the noise problems they create. > and a switching power supply with regulated output Frankly, I think the stock linear supply was a good idea. Very simple to build or fix, inexpensive, and reliable. You don't want hobbyists building a switching power supply. They are tricky and somewhat dangerous to work on. And if you buy one, about all you can get nowdays are el-cheapo offshore junk that won't be working in a few years. Another advantage to using 74HCxx logic and CMOS CPU and memory chips is that power consumption is so much lower than the power supply is even simpler and cooler. > and no on-board regulators. Leaving off the on-board regulators would make it incompatible with the original H8 boards. Also, I think the on-board regulators were a good idea. The H8 has very few power and ground pins on its boards, so there are relatively large voltage drops between the power supply and the actual chips. On-board regulators provide cleaner, more stable power to the chips, and fewer noise spikes on the bus. They also spread the heat around nicely, instead of concentrating it all in one spot so you need a fan to cool it. > My reaction is that I'd like to see more of what we're starting to talk > about here - modern, low power solutions to replace rare or unreliable > components, but staying with an original chassis. This is pretty much what I'm thinking of, too. A 'new' H8 kit, that looks like and works like the original, but uses modern parts that are cheaper and easier to get, and that offer performance advantages as well. Boards would be interchangeable with the original, so if we develop a new CPU or memory board, it could be used to "soup up" an original H8. But the new boards would have extra features; say, a 2/4/8 MHz Z80 CPU board, 4 megabyte RAM board, etc. > IDE... Since the Heath H67 was a SCSI type device and the existing software already understands it, it may be better to duplicate the H8-37 board which had both H37 soft-sector and H67 hard drive support. "Small" Mac hard drives (only 100 megs or so) are SCSI and almost free. > high-speed serial output and networking capability High-speed serial is straightforward, just by replacing the 8250 with the 16550. The software doesn't need to change, until you want to get the higher baud rates and use its internal FIFOs. There are 'beige boxes' that convert a serial port into a WiFi wireless network port. DPAC Technologies ABDB-SE-DP101, for example, is about the size of a mouse, and has a built-in web server. > (wanna write a TCP/IP stack for HDOS? You could; it's already been done for other Z80 computers. For $99 you can buy an eZ80 demo board that *includes* this software. > We have a chance to exercise both our collective design/validation > skills and our collective buying power. Exactly! And have some fun building things again, instead of just being appliance operators :-) -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Fri Apr 23 16:41:14 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:41:14 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: Re: (no subject)] Message-ID: <40898D7A.8090401@sc.rr.com> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: (no subject) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:28:27 -0700 From: HSC Electronics To: Carroll Waddell Thank you for your inquiry. The information is as follows: Molex #22-16-2251 is priced $ 3.28, minimum quantity is 1,800 pieces, the lead time is 4-5 weeks ARO, and is NCNR. A sellective gold plated part is available, Molex #22-16-2250 is priced $ 1.15, minimum is 2430 pieces, the lead time is 4-5 weeks ARO, and is NCNR. Richard Kolber At 10:55 AM 4/23/04 -0400, you wrote: >CORRECTION TO PREVIOUS MESSAGE > >CORRECT PN IS 22-16-2251 > >Several people have formed a group to restore Heathkit H8's. I was >looking for >H8 board connectors. They are MOLEX p/n 22-16-2251. This is a right >angle, 25 >pin, female connector with 2 board supports on the ends. Can these still be >obtained? Do you have them or can get them, and what is the smallest >quantity >we could order to begin with? > Richard Kolber 3500 Ryder Street Santa Clara, Ca 95051 Ph 408-732-1573 Fax 408-732-6428 From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Fri Apr 23 16:42:13 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:42:13 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Jack Message-ID: <40898DB5.8030508@sc.rr.com> Has everyone stopped email. I haven't gotten any email from the group for 2 days. CEW -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 23 16:47:20 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Jack Message-ID: <200404232147.OAA13276@clulw009.amd.com> Some days we are quite. Dwight >From: "Carroll Waddell" > >Has everyone stopped email. >I haven't gotten any email from the group for 2 days. >CEW > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 23 17:22:25 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Jack In-Reply-To: <200404232147.OAA13276@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: ...and other days we're quiet. :) g. On Fri, 23 Apr 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > Some days we are quite. > Dwight > > >From: "Carroll Waddell" > > > >Has everyone stopped email. > >I haven't gotten any email from the group for 2 days. > >CEW > > > > > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 23 17:15:28 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Jack Message-ID: <200404232215.PAA13293@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > > >Some days we are quite. oops! ^^^^^ quiet I need a proof reader, not a spell checker. Dwight >Dwight > >>From: "Carroll Waddell" >> >>Has everyone stopped email. >>I haven't gotten any email from the group for 2 days. >>CEW >> >> > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Fri Apr 23 17:30:33 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:30:33 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Jack In-Reply-To: <200404232147.OAA13276@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200404232147.OAA13276@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <40899909.9070802@sc.rr.com> AH! cw Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >Some days we are quite. >Dwight > > > >>From: "Carroll Waddell" >> >>Has everyone stopped email. >>I haven't gotten any email from the group for 2 days. >>CEW >> >> >> >> > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Fri Apr 23 20:04:43 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 21:04:43 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Success with tapes Message-ID: <4089BD2B.6070401@sc.rr.com> I've finally gotten old tape images restored from my PC back to tapes. Just loaded BH Basic, Extended BH Basic, and Hangman. I haven't played that game in 30 years. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Apr 23 20:12:55 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:12:55 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Success with tapes In-Reply-To: <4089BD2B.6070401@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <000701c42999$46644cd0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Congratulations! What method did you use? PC WAV files to tape to H8-5? Were these the PID files you uploaded to the SEBHC archive? Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Carroll Waddell > Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 8:05 PM > To: sebhc at staunch89er.com > Subject: [sebhc] Success with tapes > > > I've finally gotten old tape images restored from my PC back > to tapes. > Just loaded BH Basic, Extended BH Basic, and Hangman. I > haven't played > that game in 30 years. > Carroll > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Fri Apr 23 22:25:04 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:25:04 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Success with tapes In-Reply-To: <000701c42999$46644cd0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> References: <000701c42999$46644cd0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <4089DE10.8060004@sc.rr.com> Yes. These were the files I uploaded. The method is as follows: Connect your PC COMM port 2 to the H8-5 serial port. On the H8-5 board, change the switch from NORM to INTERCHANGE (this swaps the TAPE and SERIAL ports) On my PC, I have a program (I'll be glad to get it to anyone who needs it) that I tell what I want to send to port 2. Then just press the LOAD button on the H8, and it will read the data coming from the PC just exactly as if it were a tape. Then return the switch from INTERCHANGE to NORM, have a tape recorder connected to the H8, and press the DUMP key. This writes the image from the H8 to tape. It's really quite simple. I also have a PC program that emulates the Heath H19 terminal if anyone wants a copy of it. Carroll Jack Rubin wrote: >Congratulations! What method did you use? PC WAV files to tape to H8-5? >Were these the PID files you uploaded to the SEBHC archive? > >Jack > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of >>Carroll Waddell >>Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 8:05 PM >>To: sebhc at staunch89er.com >>Subject: [sebhc] Success with tapes >> >> >>I've finally gotten old tape images restored from my PC back >>to tapes. >>Just loaded BH Basic, Extended BH Basic, and Hangman. I >>haven't played >>that game in 30 years. >>Carroll >> >>-- >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> >> >> > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Apr 23 23:17:36 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:17:36 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Success with tapes In-Reply-To: <4089DE10.8060004@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <000601c429b3$1367efc0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> I'd very much like a copy of your H19 emulator - I've been messing around with Kermit but I'd like something a little less cumbersome. Please upload it when you get a chance. Thanks! Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Carroll Waddell > Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 10:25 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] Success with tapes > > > Yes. These were the files I uploaded. The method is as > follows: Connect your PC COMM port 2 to the H8-5 serial port. > On the H8-5 board, change the switch from NORM to INTERCHANGE (this > swaps the TAPE and SERIAL ports) > On my PC, I have a program (I'll be glad to get it to anyone > who needs > it) that I tell what I want to send to port 2. > Then just press the LOAD button on the H8, and it will read the data > coming from the PC just exactly as if it were a tape. > Then return the switch from INTERCHANGE to NORM, have a tape recorder > connected to the H8, and press the DUMP key. This writes the > image from the H8 to tape. It's really quite simple. I also > have a PC program that emulates the Heath H19 terminal if anyone > wants a copy of it. > Carroll > > Jack Rubin wrote: > > >Congratulations! What method did you use? PC WAV files to > tape to H8-5? > >Were these the PID files you uploaded to the SEBHC archive? > > > >Jack > > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > >>Carroll Waddell > >>Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 8:05 PM > >>To: sebhc at staunch89er.com > >>Subject: [sebhc] Success with tapes > >> > >> > >>I've finally gotten old tape images restored from my PC back > >>to tapes. > >>Just loaded BH Basic, Extended BH Basic, and Hangman. I > >>haven't played > >>that game in 30 years. > >>Carroll > >> > >>-- > >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > sebhc-request at sebhc.org. > >> > >> > >> > > > >-- > >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > > > > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Sat Apr 24 01:22:20 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:22:20 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Success with tapes References: <000701c42999$46644cd0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> <4089DE10.8060004@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <408A079C.952@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > I also have a PC program that emulates the Heath H19 terminal if anyone > wants a copy of it. Now, that would be interesting! How thoroughly does it emulate the H19? Both Heath and ANSI modes? Graphics mode included? -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sat Apr 24 06:31:53 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 07:31:53 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Success with tapes In-Reply-To: <000601c429b3$1367efc0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> References: <000601c429b3$1367efc0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <408A5029.4000805@sc.rr.com> The H19 emulator is very primitive. The only thing you can change at present is the baud rate. What I would like to do (now that I have tapes working again) is to upgrade my emulation program to also emulate 2 cassette players. I would have to bypass the audio conversion part of the H8-5 and connect directly to the usart. I thought it would be nice to have a "cassette system" running at 4800 baud. Lee Hart asked a couple of good questions about the emulation. It does not emulate ANSI but only Heath. I am going to completely rewrite the program and also have it emulate the switches that control the terminal. I really hadn't thought about graphics, but I'll look into that. I just got my H19 terminal book out and will look at how the terminal operates. I will upload both the emulation EXE and source code, and will also upload the program that I used to create the tapes from the image files in my PC. Should be able to do that in a day or two. Carroll Jack Rubin wrote: >I'd very much like a copy of your H19 emulator - I've been messing >around with Kermit but I'd like something a little less cumbersome. > >Please upload it when you get a chance. > >Thanks! > >Jack > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of >>Carroll Waddell >>Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 10:25 PM >>To: sebhc at sebhc.org >>Subject: Re: [sebhc] Success with tapes >> >> >>Yes. These were the files I uploaded. The method is as >>follows: Connect your PC COMM port 2 to the H8-5 serial port. >>On the H8-5 board, change the switch from NORM to INTERCHANGE (this >>swaps the TAPE and SERIAL ports) >>On my PC, I have a program (I'll be glad to get it to anyone >>who needs >>it) that I tell what I want to send to port 2. >>Then just press the LOAD button on the H8, and it will read the data >>coming from the PC just exactly as if it were a tape. >>Then return the switch from INTERCHANGE to NORM, have a tape recorder >>connected to the H8, and press the DUMP key. This writes the >>image from the H8 to tape. It's really quite simple. I also >>have a PC program that emulates the Heath H19 terminal if anyone >>wants a copy of it. >>Carroll >> >>Jack Rubin wrote: >> >> >> >>>Congratulations! What method did you use? PC WAV files to >>> >>> >>tape to H8-5? >> >> >>>Were these the PID files you uploaded to the SEBHC archive? >>> >>>Jack >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of >>>>Carroll Waddell >>>>Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 8:05 PM >>>>To: sebhc at staunch89er.com >>>>Subject: [sebhc] Success with tapes >>>> >>>> >>>>I've finally gotten old tape images restored from my PC back >>>>to tapes. >>>>Just loaded BH Basic, Extended BH Basic, and Hangman. I >>>>haven't played >>>>that game in 30 years. >>>>Carroll >>>> >>>>-- >>>>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >>>> >>>> >>sebhc-request at sebhc.org. >> >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>-- >>>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > From eric at rothfus.com Sat Apr 24 10:45:25 2004 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:45:25 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Success with tapes In-Reply-To: <000601c429b3$1367efc0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> (jack.rubin@ameritech.net) References: <000601c429b3$1367efc0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <1082727727@rothfus.com> Hey Jack, did you get the Kermit H-19 to work? I got it mostly working, but it didn't get the graphics completely right. You COULD play a game of chess, but it's not as good as on an H-19. -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sat Apr 24 16:08:13 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 17:08:13 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H17 controller Message-ID: <408AD73D.3050409@sc.rr.com> I am still looking for an H8-17 controller card. Does anyone have one for sale. Or, does someone have the manuals and especially the XRAY picture of the card from Heath. I could use that to clone another card. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Apr 24 20:55:31 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 18:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H17 controller In-Reply-To: <408AD73D.3050409@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040425015531.11122.qmail@web80204.mail.yahoo.com> Carroll, I can _loan_ you a card and the docs, but I'm afraid I don't have one to give up. Jack Carroll Waddell wrote: I am still looking for an H8-17 controller card. Does anyone have one for sale. Or, does someone have the manuals and especially the XRAY picture of the card from Heath. I could use that to clone another card. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Apr 24 21:04:25 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 19:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Success with tapes In-Reply-To: <1082727727@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <20040425020425.53030.qmail@web80206.mail.yahoo.com> No - I never got the results I expected, that's why I was hoping Carroll's emulator was more complete but it doesn't sound like it is. Must be something out there that does a good job with H19 graphics. Did you get the multiport card yet? I'm meeting Scott LaBombard for breakfast tomorrow - should be fun. Jack "Eric J. Rothfus" wrote: Hey Jack, did you get the Kermit H-19 to work? I got it mostly working, but it didn't get the graphics completely right. You COULD play a game of chess, but it's not as good as on an H-19. -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sat Apr 24 21:31:09 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 22:31:09 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H17 controller In-Reply-To: <20040425015531.11122.qmail@web80204.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040425015531.11122.qmail@web80204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <408B22ED.40208@sc.rr.com> I would appreciate the diagram that shows the circuit pattern layout of the controller board. A copy would be ok. I'm going to try to reproduce the board. Carroll Jack Rubin wrote: >Carroll, > >I can _loan_ you a card and the docs, but I'm afraid I don't have one to give up. > >Jack > > >Carroll Waddell wrote: >I am still looking for an H8-17 controller card. Does anyone have one >for sale. Or, does someone have the manuals and especially the XRAY >picture of the card from Heath. I could use that to clone another card. >Carroll > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sat Apr 24 21:31:51 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 22:31:51 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Success with tapes In-Reply-To: <20040425020425.53030.qmail@web80206.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040425020425.53030.qmail@web80206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <408B2317.40303@sc.rr.com> I'm going to rewrite the H19 emulator, but it will take quite a while. CEW Jack Rubin wrote: >No - I never got the results I expected, that's why I was hoping Carroll's emulator was more complete but it doesn't sound like it is. Must be something out there that does a good job with H19 graphics. > >Did you get the multiport card yet? I'm meeting Scott LaBombard for breakfast tomorrow - should be fun. > >Jack > >"Eric J. Rothfus" wrote: >Hey Jack, did you get the Kermit H-19 to work? I got it >mostly working, but it didn't get the graphics completely right. >You COULD play a game of chess, but it's not as good as on an >H-19. > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Sun Apr 25 00:41:59 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 22:41:59 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Success with tapes References: <20040425020425.53030.qmail@web80206.mail.yahoo.com> <408B2317.40303@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <408B4FA7.4623@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > I'm going to rewrite the H19 emulator, but it will take quite a while. A few years ago I was looking for an H19 emulator so I could run H89 software on a PC via emulation. It was no problem finding CP/M and Z80 emulators, but they typically have really crappy "terminal" emulation. VT52 and VT100 (ANSI) emulations are pretty common. The H19 emulates the VT52, but has features (like Heath graphics) that these emulators mis-handle. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From waltm22 at comcast.net Sat Apr 24 23:41:05 2004 From: waltm22 at comcast.net (Walter Moore) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:41:05 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] New Media Order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001701c42a7f$8877c3e0$0700a8c0@walterp4> Patrick, If I can still get in on the order, I would commit to 250 of the HS disks, and 100 of the SS disks (I'm being optimistic that I'll get an SS controller up and running in an H89 sometime :) ). If the total order is approaching a price break, I could up my order. Was there any word on sleeves? Thanks, ..walt -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 5:19 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: RE: [sebhc] New Media Order > It would be interesting to know where/$$ of the next price break. That > could influence my quantity. > > Have you ever looked into a source for sleeves? Unfortunately, I > threw out > a bunch four or five months ago. Now I wish I had them back. Walt, I can ask them. I suspect it's 2500. I'll also ask about sleeves. They must have 'em. --Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sun Apr 25 06:57:43 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 07:57:43 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Success with tapes In-Reply-To: <408B4FA7.4623@earthlink.net> References: <20040425020425.53030.qmail@web80206.mail.yahoo.com> <408B2317.40303@sc.rr.com> <408B4FA7.4623@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <408BA7B7.70205@sc.rr.com> I've never had an H8 software that tried to do graphics, and I still don't, so I didn't put it in the H19 emulation. It seems that I remember some program, (must have been a test) that drew an American flag on the screen. When I rewrite the emulation program, I'll do my best to include a graphics emulation. I still have an H19, so I'll compare the emulation to the real thing. Carroll Lee Hart wrote: >Carroll Waddell wrote: > > >>I'm going to rewrite the H19 emulator, but it will take quite a while. >> >> > >A few years ago I was looking for an H19 emulator so I could run H89 >software on a PC via emulation. It was no problem finding CP/M and Z80 >emulators, but they typically have really crappy "terminal" emulation. > >VT52 and VT100 (ANSI) emulations are pretty common. The H19 emulates the >VT52, but has features (like Heath graphics) that these emulators >mis-handle. > > From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sun Apr 25 07:04:29 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 08:04:29 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Success with tapes In-Reply-To: <408BA7B7.70205@sc.rr.com> References: <20040425020425.53030.qmail@web80206.mail.yahoo.com> <408B2317.40303@sc.rr.com> <408B4FA7.4623@earthlink.net> <408BA7B7.70205@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <408BA94D.5050507@sc.rr.com> By the way, I uploaded the emulation program and the program I used to dump images to cassette tape. The source code for both programs is there also. This emulation program was written many, many, many, many, many moons ago. CEW Carroll Waddell wrote: > I've never had an H8 software that tried to do graphics, and I still > don't, so I didn't put it in the H19 emulation. It seems that I > remember some program, (must have been a test) that drew an American > flag on the screen. When I rewrite the emulation program, I'll do my > best to include a graphics emulation. I still have an H19, so I'll > compare the emulation to the real thing. > Carroll > > Lee Hart wrote: > >> Carroll Waddell wrote: >> >> >>> I'm going to rewrite the H19 emulator, but it will take quite a while. >>> >> >> >> A few years ago I was looking for an H19 emulator so I could run H89 >> software on a PC via emulation. It was no problem finding CP/M and Z80 >> emulators, but they typically have really crappy "terminal" emulation. >> >> VT52 and VT100 (ANSI) emulations are pretty common. The H19 emulates the >> VT52, but has features (like Heath graphics) that these emulators >> mis-handle. >> >> > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Sun Apr 25 12:54:03 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 10:54:03 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] New Media Order References: <001701c42a7f$8877c3e0$0700a8c0@walterp4> Message-ID: <408BFB3B.1299@earthlink.net> Walter Moore wrote: > I'm being optimistic that I'll get an SS controller > up and running in an H89 sometime :) I still have blank Z89-37 soft-sector boards, and most of the parts to build them, if you're "up" for building one as a kit. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Sun Apr 25 12:20:23 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 10:20:23 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] New Media Order References: <001701c42a7f$8877c3e0$0700a8c0@walterp4> Message-ID: <004301c42ae9$97fcf320$210fa8c0@Sol> > If I can still get in on the order, I would commit to 250 of the HS disks, > and 100 of the SS disks (I'm being optimistic that I'll get an SS controller > up and running in an H89 sometime :) ). Walt, no problem! > Was there any word on sleeves? No word on sleeves or price break yet. Despite their product line, they are a pretty low-tech outfit and it's not unusual for a week to go by before I get a reply. If I don't have a reply tomorrow, I'll call them. Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Sun Apr 25 12:21:51 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 10:21:51 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] New Media Order References: <001701c42a7f$8877c3e0$0700a8c0@walterp4> <408BFB3B.1299@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <004e01c42ae9$cc3776b0$210fa8c0@Sol> > I still have blank Z89-37 soft-sector boards, and most of the parts to > build them, if you're "up" for building one as a kit. Lee, that reminds me... I have one of your blanks, but I need the PROM that goes on it (forgot the number). Can I purchase from you? Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From waltm22 at comcast.net Sun Apr 25 12:38:20 2004 From: waltm22 at comcast.net (Walter Moore) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 10:38:20 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] New Media Order In-Reply-To: <408BFB3B.1299@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001f01c42aec$1d333480$0700a8c0@walterp4> I'm up for it. Do the parts that you have include the three ROMs that I would need for the H89? If not, any suggestions on how to acquire them? I guess I'd also need the HDOS driver for it. Thanks, ..walt -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 10:54 AM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] New Media Order Walter Moore wrote: > I'm being optimistic that I'll get an SS controller > up and running in an H89 sometime :) I still have blank Z89-37 soft-sector boards, and most of the parts to build them, if you're "up" for building one as a kit. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Sun Apr 25 13:02:14 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 11:02:14 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Success with tapes References: <20040425020425.53030.qmail@web80206.mail.yahoo.com> <408B2317.40303@sc.rr.com> <408B4FA7.4623@earthlink.net> <408BA7B7.70205@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <408BFD26.23FB@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > I've never had an H8 software that tried to do graphics, and I still > don't, so I didn't put it in the H19 emulation. I have quite a few. There is Ed-A-Sketch, which lets you draw pictures with H19 graphics. I drew a "Captain Klutz" comic book with it. I wrote Write-Hand-Man, which is a "sidekick" like program for CP/M that lets you pop up a calculator, notepad, rolodex file, etc. all of which actually look like the real things on the screen. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Sun Apr 25 18:32:24 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 16:32:24 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] New Media Order References: <001701c42a7f$8877c3e0$0700a8c0@walterp4> <408BFB3B.1299@earthlink.net> <004e01c42ae9$cc3776b0$210fa8c0@Sol> Message-ID: <408C4A88.6C44@earthlink.net> Patrick wrote: > > > I still have blank Z89-37 soft-sector boards, and most of the parts to > > build them, if you're "up" for building one as a kit. > > Lee, that reminds me... I have one of your blanks, but I need the PROM that > goes on it (forgot the number). Can I purchase from you? No PROMs, but there are two PALs on the Z89-37 board. Heath part# 444-81 and 444-82. I have a couple left of each. Heath also gave the programming of them, so someone with a PAL programmer can make them. Unfortunately, I don't have one. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Sun Apr 25 19:18:02 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 17:18:02 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] New Media Order References: <001f01c42aec$1d333480$0700a8c0@walterp4> Message-ID: <408C553A.6651@earthlink.net> Lee Hart wrote: >> I still have blank Z89-37 soft-sector boards, and most of the parts >> to build them, if you're "up" for building one as a kit. Walter Moore wrote: > I'm up for it. Do the parts that you have include the three ROMs > that I would need for the H89? If not, any suggestions on how to > acquire them? All the parts except for a few ICs and the 25-pin bus connector (same one as the H9) are generic and easy to get. Here is a list of the ICs: U1 74LS245 (or HC) U2 74LS240 (remove from CPU board and put on Z89-37 board) U3 74LS148 (remove from CPU board and put on Z89-37 board) U4 Heath 444-82 PAL (programmed MMI 10H8 or equivalent) U5 74LS03 (or HC) U6 Heath 444-81 PAL (programmed MMI 10H8 or equivalent) U7 74LS74 (or HC) U8 96L02 or 4528B U9 LOCO2-16 16 MHz crystal oscillator (B.G. Micro $1.79) U10 74LS161 (or HC) U11 74LS273 (or HC) U12 WD1797 floppy disk controller (B.G.Micro $5.50) U13 74LS157 or 74LS257 (or HC) U14 74123 (or LS or HC) U15 74LS367 or 4503B U16 WD1691 U17 74LS624 U18 WD2143-03 U19-22 7406 or 7416 U23 78L05 I have a few of the WD1797, WD2143-03, and WD1691 but am reluctant to sell them if it leaves me with no spares and makes the remaining bare boards I have unusable. I bought them from B.G.Micro but that was several years ago; only the WD1797 is listed in their current catalog. I haven't tried looking anywhere else for them. On the H89 CPU board you need (to boot from the Z89-37): U518 444-142 MTR-90 (2732 4Kx8 EPROM; I have them and can program more if needed) U550 444-61 I/O decoder (TI 28L22 256x8 PROM; I have them and can program them) > I guess I'd also need the HDOS driver for it. That part's easy. I have the HUG disk with it. In fact, there are several variations, with different features. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sun Apr 25 19:31:51 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:31:51 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Heathkit HS-161 Message-ID: <408C5877.2040106@sc.rr.com> Has anyone ever heard of a Heathkit HS-161 computer? Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Sun Apr 25 21:37:11 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 19:37:11 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Heathkit HS-161 References: <408C5877.2040106@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <408C75D7.7724@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > > Has anyone ever heard of a Heathkit HS-161 computer? Yes; I think it is one of their "portable" (i.e. luggable) 8088 PC clones. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Apr 26 07:53:13 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 08:53:13 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Tape documentation Message-ID: <408D0639.4050206@sc.rr.com> Is anyone planning to upload documentation about the H8 tapes, or does anyone have it who is willing to let me borrow it to copy? I have BH Basic, Extended BH Basic, TED-8, HASL-8, BUG-8, etc, but I do not have any documentation for it. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Apr 26 08:44:57 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 06:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Tape documentation Message-ID: <200404261344.i3QDivBR031941@gatekeeper.evocative.com> At 08:53 26/04/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Is anyone planning to upload documentation about the H8 tapes, or does >anyone have it who is willing to let me borrow it to copy? I have BH >Basic, Extended BH Basic, TED-8, HASL-8, BUG-8, etc, but I do not have >any documentation for it. >Carroll I have the Heath H8 Software Reference manual, which includes sections for: PAM-8 panel monitor BUG-8 Console Debugger TED-8 Text editor HASL-8 Heath Assembly Language BH Basic and Extended BH Basic I am planning to scan this and post it on my site fairly soon - perhaps someone will be able to grab it from there and copy it to the SEBHC site. I have a very slow dial-up connection - I post large files to my vintage computer site via "CD NET" - I burn a CD and physically take it to the site. - So sorry I can't upload to SEBHC directly. This has been delayed because I'm still trying to work out a scanner problem. Basically, my sheetfeed Paperport Vx scanner only works with Paperport software (the twain driver scans 1 page and then you have to reboot before you can scan another) and when I print to the PDFwriter from Paperport, it "squishes" a couple of lines each page to about 1/2 height, rendering them almost illegible. Anyone else got this scanner setup - anyone found a solution? Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From me at patswayne.com Mon Apr 26 09:59:25 2004 From: me at patswayne.com (Pat Swayne) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:59:25 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Success with tapes In-Reply-To: <408A079C.952@earthlink.net> References: <000701c42999$46644cd0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> <4089DE10.8060004@sc.rr.com> <408A079C.952@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040426105516.02f2e248@mail.patswayne.com> Carroll Waddell wrote: > I also have a PC program that emulates the Heath H19 terminal if anyone > wants a copy of it. I still have the "Heath Terminal Emulator" program I wrote for HUG. I'll upload it as soon as I get the chance. It emulates H19 escape codes (but not ANSI), and H19 graphics. -- Pat -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From me at patswayne.com Mon Apr 26 10:29:35 2004 From: me at patswayne.com (Pat Swayne) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:29:35 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H19 Emulator In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040426105516.02f2e248@mail.patswayne.com> References: <000701c42999$46644cd0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> <4089DE10.8060004@sc.rr.com> <408A079C.952@earthlink.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20040426105516.02f2e248@mail.patswayne.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040426112511.02f2d518@mail.patswayne.com> I have uploaded my Heath Terminal Emulator to the upload directory archive.sebhc.org. Hopefully it will be made available for you all soon. I uploaded the source and the executable in a Zip file (HTE.ZIP). Read the comments at the beginning of the source for information on the program. -- Pat -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Apr 26 14:34:18 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:34:18 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Tape documentation In-Reply-To: <200404261344.i3QDivBR031941@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <005301c42bc5$7871eba0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Dave, I'd like to mirror your Heath-related scans at SEBHC if that's ok with you. I also have a copy or two of the SRM which I can toss in the scanner if you won't be getting to it for a while. I wouldn't want to leave Carroll "hanging" without docs after he's gotten his old EBH cassette games working. Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Dave Dunfield > Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 8:45 AM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Cc: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com > Subject: Re: [sebhc] Tape documentation > > > At 08:53 26/04/2004 -0400, you wrote: > >Is anyone planning to upload documentation about the H8 > tapes, or does > >anyone have it who is willing to let me borrow it to copy? I have BH > >Basic, Extended BH Basic, TED-8, HASL-8, BUG-8, etc, but I > do not have > >any documentation for it. > >Carroll > > I have the Heath H8 Software Reference manual, which includes sections > for: > PAM-8 panel monitor > BUG-8 Console Debugger > TED-8 Text editor > HASL-8 Heath Assembly Language > BH Basic and Extended BH Basic > > I am planning to scan this and post it on my site fairly soon > - perhaps someone will be able to grab it from there and copy > it to the SEBHC site. > > I have a very slow dial-up connection - I post large files to > my vintage computer site via "CD NET" - I burn a CD and > physically take it to the site. - So sorry I can't upload to > SEBHC directly. > > This has been delayed because I'm still trying to work out a > scanner problem. Basically, my sheetfeed Paperport Vx scanner > only works with Paperport software (the twain driver scans 1 > page and then you have to reboot before you can scan > another) and when I print to the PDFwriter from Paperport, it > "squishes" a couple of lines each page to about 1/2 height, > rendering them almost illegible. > > Anyone else got this scanner setup - anyone found a solution? > > Regards, > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Apr 26 21:52:48 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 22:52:48 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 Connectors Message-ID: <408DCB00.5070805@sc.rr.com> I just found a source of the tin plated H8 board connectors. I got this from the MOLEX web site. Source is WWW.TTIINC.COM Their tin connectors are $2.00 each, but their shipping and handling is high. Molex shows another company that has the gold plated connectors, but their web server was down. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Tue Apr 27 13:03:45 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 11:03:45 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Media Order Message-ID: OK, I'm sure I've missed somebody, so please chime in... Jack Rubin - 100 each soft- and hard-sector Patrick Rigney - 250 each soft- and hard-sector Walt Moore - 100 soft- and 250 hard-sector Who did I miss? That's 600 hard- and 450 soft-sector in total. Low turn-out, I think, but not surprising considering Eric's activities. :-) Sleeves came back at $0.05 each in this quantity, so please let me know how many sleeves you want, if any. Frankly, they are not worth it to me at half that price. I contacted another vendor and their price was $0.08 each for paper, $0.10 for Tyvek, minimum 2000. FYI, this vendor still sells 8" sleeves as well. For me, I'm happy with my plastic boxes and sheets of acid-free paper between. I have a few old sleeves I use for when the disks are out of the boxes and shuffling around the bench. Next price break on the diskettes themselves is at 5000, so we're not close by a long shot. Also, Walt, please let me know where you are... if you're in California my company will charge you sales tax (I'm buying these on my company's reseller license to get wholesale pricing). Thanks! Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From me at patswayne.com Tue Apr 27 09:25:26 2004 From: me at patswayne.com (Pat Swayne) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:25:26 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H19 Emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040427102222.02f7b4b0@mail.patswayne.com> I need to mention, because it's not clear from just reading the notes at the beginning of my source, that you can run my Heath Terminal Emulator program in Graphics (monochrome 640x200) mode by typing HTE G when you run it. This will give you better emulated H19 graphics, if I remember correctly (been a long time). In the text mode it just uses "close fit" PC-style graphics. -- Pat -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Apr 27 14:10:07 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 15:10:07 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Schematic Message-ID: <408EB00F.6070001@sc.rr.com> Does anyone have an x-ray view from Heath of the H8-17 controller board? I would like to try to clone that board. Finding one is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Now that I have found a source for the H8 card connectors, I will be making some hardware boards. If anyone is interested, the first one I will make is a 64K memory card. Next, perhaps a substitute for the H8-10 wire wrap board. By the way, does anyone know if Heath purchased the heat sink / mounting rail for their H8 cards, or did they make them themselves. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 27 15:00:24 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 13:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Media Order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Patrick, what is the price each on those disks, both soft and hard sectored? If you mentioned it already I must have missed it. Tnx! g. -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Tue Apr 27 15:20:12 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 13:20:12 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Media Order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Patrick, what is the price each on those disks, both soft and hard > sectored? If you mentioned it already I must have missed it. Gene, they are $1.85 each, hard- or soft-sectored, in that quantity (under 5000). I think that may be around average for the day: I remember paying $20-$25 for a box of ten. I found my old receipt, and the last time I bought them in bulk (about 18 months ago), they ran me $2.15 each; plus shipping and tax it worked out to around $2.30. They are new manufacture, not new old stock. --Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Tue Apr 27 17:15:33 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 15:15:33 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Schematic References: <408EB00F.6070001@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <408EDB85.4493@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > Does anyone have an x-ray view from Heath of the H8-17 controller > board? I would like to try to clone that board. I don't have it either, but wish I did. But, the board that I think would be better to clone would be the soft-sector controller (H8-37 I think). It supports far more disk formats, and even has the SCSI connector for a hard drive. > Now that I have found a source for the H8 card connectors, I will be > making some hardware boards. If anyone is interested, the first one I > will make is a 64K memory card. 64k is awfully small; one single memory chip. Might I suggest you make it support (say) eight bytewide 28- or 32-pin devices, and have the jumper options and bank select logic to allow it to be populated with either RAMs or EPROMs, from 8k to 512k each. I already have a design done for another project which I can share if you like. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Apr 27 15:41:57 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 13:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Schematic In-Reply-To: <408EB00F.6070001@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040427204157.12647.qmail@web80207.mail.yahoo.com> Carroll, I've got the schematic for you - just need to stop off at Kinkos some evening to get you a color copy so you can get the full xray effect. And I've also got some neat aftermarket/homebrew heat sink mounts to share with the list. Jack Carroll Waddell wrote: Does anyone have an x-ray view from Heath of the H8-17 controller board? I would like to try to clone that board. Finding one is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Now that I have found a source for the H8 card connectors, I will be making some hardware boards. If anyone is interested, the first one I will make is a 64K memory card. Next, perhaps a substitute for the H8-10 wire wrap board. By the way, does anyone know if Heath purchased the heat sink / mounting rail for their H8 cards, or did they make them themselves. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 27 16:02:57 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Media Order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Patrick wrote: > > Patrick, what is the price each on those disks, both soft and hard > > sectored? If you mentioned it already I must have missed it. > > Gene, they are $1.85 each, hard- or soft-sectored, in that quantity (under > 5000). I think that may be around average for the day: I remember paying > $20-$25 for a box of ten. I found my old receipt, and the last time I > bought them in bulk (about 18 months ago), they ran me $2.15 each; plus > shipping and tax it worked out to around $2.30. They are new manufacture, > not new old stock. --Patrick > Wow. That's quite a bit more than I expected. The last time I spent $20 on a box of disks was 1984 or so. :) Thanks for the quick response! g. -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Tue Apr 27 16:22:12 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:22:12 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Media Order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Wow. That's quite a bit more than I expected. The last time I spent $20 > on a box of disks was 1984 or so. :) Gene, I'm guessing that's nearer to the last day they were in wide production than it is to today. :-) These are rarer now, and the alternative is not having them, or taking my chances with eBay (been down this road with the bruises to show for it). --Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Apr 27 16:26:04 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:26:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Tape documentation Message-ID: <200404272126.i3RLPwKj023738@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by mail.toadware.ca with SMTP; 27 Apr 2004 21:43:29 -0000 At 14:34 26/04/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Dave, > >I'd like to mirror your Heath-related scans at SEBHC if that's ok with >you. I also have a copy or two of the SRM which I can toss in the >scanner if you won't be getting to it for a while. I wouldn't want to >leave Carroll "hanging" without docs after he's gotten his old EBH >cassette games working. > >Jack Hi Jack, No problem - take what you want. All the material on that site is intended to be shared. If you have a fairly painless way to scan the SRM, please do so (and I'll grab a copy) - as noted in my posting, I am having some scanner trouble. Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From waltm22 at comcast.net Tue Apr 27 16:38:33 2004 From: waltm22 at comcast.net (Walter Moore) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:38:33 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Media Order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c42ca0$00731cb0$0700a8c0@walterp4> I'm in Washington. I personally would enjoy having the sleeves. I can't say why, maybe it's just old habits. I could use at least 500 sleeves. Thanks, ..walt -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 11:04 AM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: [sebhc] Media Order OK, I'm sure I've missed somebody, so please chime in... Jack Rubin - 100 each soft- and hard-sector Patrick Rigney - 250 each soft- and hard-sector Walt Moore - 100 soft- and 250 hard-sector Who did I miss? That's 600 hard- and 450 soft-sector in total. Low turn-out, I think, but not surprising considering Eric's activities. :-) Sleeves came back at $0.05 each in this quantity, so please let me know how many sleeves you want, if any. Frankly, they are not worth it to me at half that price. I contacted another vendor and their price was $0.08 each for paper, $0.10 for Tyvek, minimum 2000. FYI, this vendor still sells 8" sleeves as well. For me, I'm happy with my plastic boxes and sheets of acid-free paper between. I have a few old sleeves I use for when the disks are out of the boxes and shuffling around the bench. Next price break on the diskettes themselves is at 5000, so we're not close by a long shot. Also, Walt, please let me know where you are... if you're in California my company will charge you sales tax (I'm buying these on my company's reseller license to get wholesale pricing). Thanks! Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Tue Apr 27 17:09:39 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 15:09:39 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Media Order In-Reply-To: <000301c42ca0$00731cb0$0700a8c0@walterp4> Message-ID: > I'm in Washington. I personally would enjoy having the sleeves. I can't > say why, maybe it's just old habits. I could use at least 500 sleeves. > > Thanks, > > ..walt Walt, no tax for you, then! And sleeves it is. --Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From waltm22 at comcast.net Tue Apr 27 17:10:54 2004 From: waltm22 at comcast.net (Walter Moore) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 15:10:54 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Are the gods friendly? In-Reply-To: <200404272126.i3RLPwKj023738@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <000001c42ca4$831d4a10$0700a8c0@walterp4> Two lab power supplies, one HP 1662 logic analyzer, a Tektronics 4 channel scope, logic probe, pulser and current tracer, meter and whatever else, and I'm ready to figure out why my old Remex 8" disks (which haven't been used in almost 20 years) would not step. In the end, what the drive really needed was a $5 can of a good synthetic lubricant. Cleaned the rails for the head, lubed them per the manual, and I managed to boot from an 8" drive for the first time since maybe '84. So maybe in a couple of weeks when I get back into town I can see if there is anything of interest on the old 8" disks. I did have the original H19 source code on disk at one time, compiled for Microsoft's M80 assembler. Does anybody know if it is OK to post this? I also have a version which was much improved that I wrote. I also have the complete HDOS 2.0 source listings which I was planning to scan at some point (it was only $195 back in '81). Is this something that should be done? Does somebody already have it in source format? Can we post it? Also, I have an HP 6270C (hum, I always thought it was a 6250...) scanner which I hardly ever used. This was a SCSI and USB 1.1 scanner with document feeder. If anybody wants to give it a try and a new home, I will be happy to send it their way. I cannot at this moment guarantee that it works. I still have the machine I used it on. I will try and hook it up to see if it still works. The software that came with it was for Windows 98. ..walt -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Apr 27 17:32:57 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:32:57 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Schematic In-Reply-To: <408EDB85.4493@earthlink.net> References: <408EB00F.6070001@sc.rr.com> <408EDB85.4493@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <408EDF99.7070201@sc.rr.com> Lee, That sounds interesting, but how do you get an 8080 to address more than 64K? Carroll (PS) I remember working on an old IBM system that used an 8085 processor and had 128K. I don't recall how they did it though. Lee Hart wrote: >Carroll Waddell wrote: > > >>Does anyone have an x-ray view from Heath of the H8-17 controller >>board? I would like to try to clone that board. >> >> > >I don't have it either, but wish I did. > >But, the board that I think would be better to clone would be the >soft-sector controller (H8-37 I think). It supports far more disk >formats, and even has the SCSI connector for a hard drive. > > > >>Now that I have found a source for the H8 card connectors, I will be >>making some hardware boards. If anyone is interested, the first one I >>will make is a 64K memory card. >> >> > >64k is awfully small; one single memory chip. Might I suggest you make >it support (say) eight bytewide 28- or 32-pin devices, and have the >jumper options and bank select logic to allow it to be populated with >either RAMs or EPROMs, from 8k to 512k each. I already have a design >done for another project which I can share if you like. > > From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Tue Apr 27 18:23:22 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 16:23:22 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Schematic In-Reply-To: <408EDF99.7070201@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: > Lee, > That sounds interesting, but how do you get an 8080 to address more than > 64K? > Carroll Funny that this should come up. Jack also has me distracted with another processor project (6809) right now. The SWTP 6809 processor board has a "Dynamic Address Translator" that extends its physical memory beyond 64K, and the more I ponder it the more I like its simple elegance. It uses two 16x4 fast RAMs (74S189) to (a) remap the upper four bits of the address bus, and (b) generate an additional four bits of physical addressing. Bad ASCII art to follow... A0---------------------------------PA0 . . . . . . A11---------------------------------PA11 +--------+ A12--+----------| |----------PA12 | | 74S189 | A13----+--------| |----------PA13 | | | Lo | A14------+------| |----------PA14 | | | | | A15--------+----| |----------PA15 | | | | +--------+ | | | | | | | | +--------+ | | | +----| |----------PA19 | | | | 74S189 | | | +------| |----------PA18 | | | Hi | | +--------| |----------PA17 | | | +----------| |----------PA16 +--------+ The contents of the map can be controlled by mapped memory addresses as they are in the SWTP, or by I/O ports. The above diagram is obviously absent this logic. The 6809 lacks I/O addressing, so the SWTP CPU board has to go through a lot of gyrations to map a small area of memory (FFF0h-FFFFh) to the map RAMs and make sure that area itself CAN'T be mapped (lest you map out the map--bad plan). I think using I/O addressing to access the map is vastly preferable for this application--you have no such overlap problem. You would also be able to do something the SWTP design cannot do: READ the map, so an interrupt handler, for example, could easily swap memory it needs into the logical address space where it needs it, use it, and then restore what was there before. This is also similar to what the Magnolia 128K memory expansion and others do, but is less restrictive than that implementation. If memory serves, Magnolia's implementation has 8 hard-coded/PROM-based "maps" and you could choose one of them to be in effect at any one time. You can't map anything anywhere. Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Apr 27 19:43:36 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:43:36 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Are the gods friendly? In-Reply-To: <000001c42ca4$831d4a10$0700a8c0@walterp4> References: <000001c42ca4$831d4a10$0700a8c0@walterp4> Message-ID: <408EFE38.8070905@sc.rr.com> Actually, I would like to see or appropriate the source code listing for just about anything, or everything. Extended BH Basic, CP/M 2.2, PAM8, etc. I would like to be able to recompile the ASM source for some of this stuff. Years ago, I wrote parallel printer routines into CPM, and a few other things. CEW Walter Moore wrote: >Two lab power supplies, one HP 1662 logic analyzer, a Tektronics 4 channel >scope, logic probe, pulser and current tracer, meter and whatever else, and >I'm ready to figure out why my old Remex 8" disks (which haven't been used >in almost 20 years) would not step. > >In the end, what the drive really needed was a $5 can of a good synthetic >lubricant. Cleaned the rails for the head, lubed them per the manual, and I >managed to boot from an 8" drive for the first time since maybe '84. > >So maybe in a couple of weeks when I get back into town I can see if there >is anything of interest on the old 8" disks. I did have the original H19 >source code on disk at one time, compiled for Microsoft's M80 assembler. >Does anybody know if it is OK to post this? I also have a version which was >much improved that I wrote. > >I also have the complete HDOS 2.0 source listings which I was planning to >scan at some point (it was only $195 back in '81). Is this something that >should be done? Does somebody already have it in source format? Can we >post it? > >Also, I have an HP 6270C (hum, I always thought it was a 6250...) scanner >which I hardly ever used. This was a SCSI and USB 1.1 scanner with document >feeder. If anybody wants to give it a try and a new home, I will be happy >to send it their way. I cannot at this moment guarantee that it works. I >still have the machine I used it on. I will try and hook it up to see if it >still works. The software that came with it was for Windows 98. > >..walt > > > > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Apr 27 19:45:19 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:45:19 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Schematic In-Reply-To: <20040427204157.12647.qmail@web80207.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040427204157.12647.qmail@web80207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <408EFE9F.10805@sc.rr.com> If you want to send me the original, I will scan it and return it to you, if you don't want to make a trip to the copy shop. By the way, did Heath ever make a soft sector controller for the H8. (other than the 8" H47) Carroll Jack Rubin wrote: >Carroll, > >I've got the schematic for you - just need to stop off at Kinkos some evening to get you a color copy so you can get the full xray effect. And I've also got some neat aftermarket/homebrew heat sink mounts to share with the list. > >Jack > >Carroll Waddell wrote: >Does anyone have an x-ray view from Heath of the H8-17 controller board? >I would like to try to clone that board. Finding one is like looking for >a needle in a haystack. > >Now that I have found a source for the H8 card connectors, I will be >making some hardware boards. If anyone is interested, the first one I >will make is a 64K memory card. Next, perhaps a substitute for the H8-10 >wire wrap board. > >By the way, does anyone know if Heath purchased the heat sink / mounting >rail for their H8 cards, or did they make them themselves. > >Carroll > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From waltm22 at comcast.net Tue Apr 27 20:10:12 2004 From: waltm22 at comcast.net (Walter Moore) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:10:12 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Schematic In-Reply-To: <408EFE9F.10805@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <000001c42cbd$8f6f8cb0$0700a8c0@walterp4> The H8-47 was not a soft-sectored controller. It was an 8-bit parallel port with a couple of handshaking lines. The smarts were on the Remex 4810 disk drive. It had a 68B00, 68B21 and FD1791-2 for smarts. The 4810 could talk to other industry standard 8" drives as "slaves" (3 max, I don't know if HDOS would allow all three). The onboard processor would allow reading/writing through a buffer, so you didn't have to worry about reading/writing in a given time interval. It also handled all formatting, etc. I have thought that it would be very simple to connect an H8-47 controller to a PC via the parallel port. I haven't looked into this much, but it can't be too hard (famous last words!). ..walt -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Carroll Waddell Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 5:45 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] Schematic If you want to send me the original, I will scan it and return it to you, if you don't want to make a trip to the copy shop. By the way, did Heath ever make a soft sector controller for the H8. (other than the 8" H47) Carroll Jack Rubin wrote: >Carroll, > >I've got the schematic for you - just need to stop off at Kinkos some evening to get you a color copy so you can get the full xray effect. And I've also got some neat aftermarket/homebrew heat sink mounts to share with the list. > >Jack > >Carroll Waddell wrote: >Does anyone have an x-ray view from Heath of the H8-17 controller board? >I would like to try to clone that board. Finding one is like looking for >a needle in a haystack. > >Now that I have found a source for the H8 card connectors, I will be >making some hardware boards. If anyone is interested, the first one I >will make is a 64K memory card. Next, perhaps a substitute for the H8-10 >wire wrap board. > >By the way, does anyone know if Heath purchased the heat sink / mounting >rail for their H8 cards, or did they make them themselves. > >Carroll > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From gfroberts at adelphia.net Tue Apr 27 20:50:55 2004 From: gfroberts at adelphia.net (Deb and Glenn Roberts) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 21:50:55 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Are the gods friendly? In-Reply-To: <000001c42ca4$831d4a10$0700a8c0@walterp4> Message-ID: <20040428015057.GJOY8065.mta10.adelphia.net@VAIO> > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Walter Moore > > I also have the complete HDOS 2.0 source listings which I was planning to > scan at some point (it was only $195 back in '81). Is this something that > should be done? Does somebody already have it in source format? Can we > post it? I would love to see this group capture all of the HDOS 2 source in assemblable format. This, I suspect, is a significant undertaking even with the printed source code available. The first, and perhaps hardest, step is probably to scan these into some electronic format, then we can experiment with OCR software but will undoubtedly end up doing a fair amount of manual editing to get things into final clean form. So how do we start? If a team of us each took a piece of the listings and worked on it we could "divide and conquer". Is anyone willing to loan out their source code listing for this noble experiment? I'm willing to do my part if I can get my hands on some listings. - Glenn -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 27 20:58:13 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 01:58:13 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] Re: Schematic Message-ID: Carroll Waddell wrote: >That sounds interesting, but how do you get an 8080 to address more than >64K? I vaguely remember fooling around with a "page select" device which used an I/O port to turn on and off sections of memory. I think I may have even written a HUG article about it. But you'd have to modify the OS for this to be of much value. - Steven _________________________________________________________________ Stop worrying about overloading your inbox - get MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Wed Apr 28 00:17:00 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 22:17:00 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Schematic References: <408EB00F.6070001@sc.rr.com> <408EDB85.4493@earthlink.net> <408EDF99.7070201@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <408F3E4C.48EB@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > How do you get an 8080 to address more than 64K? Basically, the same way Intel got the 8088 to address 1 megabyte. You add segment registers, which supply the upper bits of the address, and let the CPU itself supply the lower bits I designed a product called the "Databug" which is a Z80 single-board computer, 6.25" x 2.5", 1 bytewide RAM socket (8k-512k bytes), 1 EPROM socket (8k-512k bytes), 2 serial ports, 3-channel A/D converter, and an 8-bit parallel I/O port. It's used for data logging and processing applications. The two memory chips can total 1 megabyte, which requires 20 address lines (A0-A19). The Z80 only has 16 address lines (A0-A15). So, 4 bits of an 8-bit output port provide the upper 4 address lines (A16-A19). Let N = the value of these 4 bits; 0 upon Reset, and whatever the Z80 writes thereafter. A 5th bit of this port also provides a RAM/ROM select bit (high=RAM, low=ROM). A 74HC139 decodes the Z80's A15, and the output port's RAM/ROM bit as follows: A15=0 A15=1 RAM/ROM=0 ROM bank N RAM bank 0 RAM/ROM=1 RAM bank N RAM bank 0 On power-up or Reset, RAM/ROM=0 and N=0 (A16-A19 all 0). So 0-32k is the lowest 32k in the EPROM, and 32k-64k is the lowest 32k in the RAM. If the Z80 writes some number N to the output port, then 0-32k will now address the selected 1 of 16 32k banks in the ROM. If the Z80 sets RAM/ROM=1, then 0-32k now addresses RAM bank N (1 of 16 32k blocks in the RAM chip). Since the upper half of the Z80's address space is always RAM bank 0, you have a "safe" place to put the code that manages the bank switching. This system was used just because it was simple (just a 74HC139 and a 74HC02 to implement it). But we could work out variations on it for more memory chips, or for different size memory blocks. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Apr 28 06:58:43 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (jack.rubin at ameritech.net) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 04:58:43 PDT Subject: [sebhc] Interesting item on eBay web site item# 4127690230: Heathkit Serial I/O & Cassette Interface Card Model H8 Message-ID: <200404281158.i3SBwh6C003208@mx26.sjc.ebay.com> This seller has several H8 manuals on eBay - but it's not clear if they have any of the pictorial/schematic pages - I can't see them in the photo. Jack Title of item: Heathkit Serial I/O & Cassette Interface Card Model H8 Seller: himins Starts: Apr-27-04 21:15:00 PDT Ends: May-04-04 21:15:00 PDT Price: Starts at $9.950000 To bid on the item, go to: http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?RedirectEnter&partner=777701&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi%2Eebay%2Ecom%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI%2Edll%3FViewItem%26item%3D4127690230%26category%3D1247%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AB%3AEF%3AUS%3A1 Item Description: This is the ASSEMBLY manual for the Heathkit Serial I/O and Cassette Interface Card for Model H8 computer. Manual is in very good condiotion. Feel free to email with questions regarding this manual. Shipping will be 4 dollars to the lower 48 states. Thanks for viewing my auction and good luck bidding. Visit eBay, The World's Online Marketplace TM at http://www.ebay.com -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Wed Apr 28 10:05:51 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:05:51 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] A question of Gold Message-ID: <408FC84F.2030309@sc.rr.com> While looking for H8 card connectors, I came across both a gold and a select gold. Can someone tell me what is the difference? CEW -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Wed Apr 28 12:23:09 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:23:09 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] A question of Gold References: <408FC84F.2030309@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <408FE87D.A15@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > > While looking for H8 card connectors, I came across both a gold and a > select gold. Can someone tell me what is the difference? It is easier (but more expensive) for the manufacturer to gold plate the entire terminal. But the only part of the terminal that actually needs the gold is the actual contact area. "Selective gold" plating means they only gold plate the part of the terminal that actually touches the pin. It's generally a better option. -- "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 28 11:09:57 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] A question of Gold Message-ID: <200404281609.JAA18157@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Lee Hart" > >Carroll Waddell wrote: >> >> While looking for H8 card connectors, I came across both a gold and a >> select gold. Can someone tell me what is the difference? > >It is easier (but more expensive) for the manufacturer to gold plate the >entire terminal. But the only part of the terminal that actually needs >the gold is the actual contact area. "Selective gold" plating means they >only gold plate the part of the terminal that actually touches the pin. >It's generally a better option. >-- >"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the >world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade >-- >Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net Hi Also, having gold on the part that is soldered has issues with automated soldering setups. The gold tends to dissolve into the solder pot and both raises the temperature and makes the finished solder more brittle. It is interesting that for years, HP made all of their circuit boards with gold plate. It made for good looking boards but it may not have been the best overall surface for soldering parts to. It does wet with solder quickly when soldering for the first time but at a cost. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Apr 28 23:16:41 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 23:16:41 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] source code development projects, SEBHC copyright policy and HDOS 3.0x Message-ID: <000001c42da0$c6a50fa0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> There seem to be lots of potential or in-progress software projects brewing here. Patrick has offered to set up a source code repository and I urge anyone involved in shared or group software development to take him up on his offer. Here is the position I'm taking on copyrighted material - wherever possible, I'm trying to contact original authors or current copyright holders and asking for them to either release their work to the public domain or at least approve its use for our projects. To date, I've gotten permission from Walt Bilofsky to use any of his Heath-related items (only those that he has developed/copyrighted personally which is _not_ all of the Software Toolworks catalog, but does include C/80), Kirk Thompson and Hank Lotz (Staunch89er) and Lenny Geisler (SEBHC Journal). My understanding is that Pat Swayne turned all the HUG resources over to Kirk, Hank and Lenny for public distribution, but I'd certainly like to have Pat clarify that point. For the cases where I cannot contact the copyright holder, I have posted a notice at the entry to the archives stating my intent to co-operate with any copyright holder's wishes. I will remove any item that the original owner wishes. This is also the reason that I have limited access to SEBHC list members and why the archives are password protected. They are not public and I am not offering the material herein on a public basis. Any work that SEBHC members contribute to the archives, either individually or as a group, should be considered in the public domain, in the spirit of the GNU General Public License. In the specific case of Heath operating system software source and object code, I have not obtained permission to share, modify or redistribute it. In point of fact, nobody has been able to determine who owns the rights to that code, in spite of good faith efforts by several people - most notably Dave Wallace - over the years to determine the definitive copyright holder. I "own" portions of several versions of that code in multiple forms. I have manuals with printed source for system ROMs, I have the full printed O/S listings for HDOS 1.6 and 2.0 as sold by Heath, I have ROM dumps, and I have original Heath/Zenith distribution media for the cassette "operating system", HDOS and CP/M. I plan to post any and all of this material to the SEBHC archives for the purpose of historical preservation, and for shared information and further development. Any use or modification of this code is expected to be not-for-profit. I encourage others to make the same commitment. As noted above, I am prepared to cease and desist immediately if the original copyright holder so requests. Finally, remember that HDOS 3.0x, posted to the archives in source form with documentation, was released to the public domain by the Heath company at the time of its creation. This might make a great base for a "new" version of HDOS with Y2K compliance, etc. I have more material to add to these archives and I still hope to reach Bill Parrott, the principal software architect for the project. Jack -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From me at patswayne.com Thu Apr 29 05:56:07 2004 From: me at patswayne.com (Pat Swayne) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:56:07 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] source code development projects, SEBHC copyright policy and HDOS 3.0x In-Reply-To: <000001c42da0$c6a50fa0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> References: <000001c42da0$c6a50fa0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040429065437.02f92cf8@mail.patswayne.com> Jack Rubin wrote: >My understanding is that Pat Swayne turned all the HUG >resources over to Kirk, Hank and Lenny for public distribution, but I'd >certainly like to have Pat clarify that point. You can have all my 8-bit stuff you can find, regardless of whether I gave it to someone or not. Also, you can have anything I upload to archives.sebhc.org. -- Pat -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From waltm22 at comcast.net Thu Apr 29 09:51:22 2004 From: waltm22 at comcast.net (Walter Moore) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 07:51:22 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Media Order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c42df9$76dcb960$0700a8c0@walterp4> Patrick, Does your manufacturer have new 8" DSDD disks (e.g. Dysan 3740/2D, soft sectored, unformatted, reorder number 800803)? All mine date to 1981, so it wouldn't hurt to get some new ones. If they do and it isn't too late or inconvenient, I'd be willing to order 100 of them (while I can get them). This is just one of those "be on the safe sides" kinds of thing. I'm about to go offline for a week, so I won't be able to respond to any reply to this email. Thanks, ..walt -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 11:04 AM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: [sebhc] Media Order OK, I'm sure I've missed somebody, so please chime in... Jack Rubin - 100 each soft- and hard-sector Patrick Rigney - 250 each soft- and hard-sector Walt Moore - 100 soft- and 250 hard-sector Who did I miss? That's 600 hard- and 450 soft-sector in total. Low turn-out, I think, but not surprising considering Eric's activities. :-) Sleeves came back at $0.05 each in this quantity, so please let me know how many sleeves you want, if any. Frankly, they are not worth it to me at half that price. I contacted another vendor and their price was $0.08 each for paper, $0.10 for Tyvek, minimum 2000. FYI, this vendor still sells 8" sleeves as well. For me, I'm happy with my plastic boxes and sheets of acid-free paper between. I have a few old sleeves I use for when the disks are out of the boxes and shuffling around the bench. Next price break on the diskettes themselves is at 5000, so we're not close by a long shot. Also, Walt, please let me know where you are... if you're in California my company will charge you sales tax (I'm buying these on my company's reseller license to get wholesale pricing). Thanks! Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Apr 29 10:56:21 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 08:56:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] source code development projects, SEBHC copyright policy and HDOS 3.0x In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040429065437.02f92cf8@mail.patswayne.com> Message-ID: <20040429155621.78949.qmail@web80212.mail.yahoo.com> Pat, Thank you for your generosity, past and present. Here are a few more related questions: Do you know the status of HUG contributions in general? Did software sent to HUG become HUG property? I know that HUG and REMark were funded by Heath - was HUG a true part of the Heath Company? Are you in touch with any other HUG staff? It would be interesting to try to put together a history of HUG if we could come up with enough new info. Best, Jack Pat Swayne wrote: Jack Rubin wrote: >My understanding is that Pat Swayne turned all the HUG >resources over to Kirk, Hank and Lenny for public distribution, but I'd >certainly like to have Pat clarify that point. You can have all my 8-bit stuff you can find, regardless of whether I gave it to someone or not. Also, you can have anything I upload to archives.sebhc.org. -- Pat -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From me at patswayne.com Thu Apr 29 08:20:28 2004 From: me at patswayne.com (Pat Swayne) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:20:28 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] source code development projects, SEBHC copyright policy and HDOS 3.0x In-Reply-To: <20040429155621.78949.qmail@web80212.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040429065437.02f92cf8@mail.patswayne.com> <20040429155621.78949.qmail@web80212.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040429091124.02f1f6d8@mail.patswayne.com> Jack wrote: >Do you know the status of HUG contributions in general? >Did software sent to HUG become HUG property? I'm pretty sure the contributors retained the rights. But I wasn't the expert in the business end of the deal. >I know that HUG and REMark were funded by Heath - was HUG a true part of >the Heath Company? Yes, so when Heath (Zenith) decided to lay off people, they laid us off as well. >Are you in touch with any other HUG staff? Jim Buszkeiwicz passed away a few years ago. I think you can still reach Bob Ellerton at trainman67 at aol.com. I haven't talked to him in a long time, though. He'd be the best bet concerning history info, though. -- Pat -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Apr 30 08:16:33 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:16:33 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] New Archive postings Message-ID: <000001c42eb5$5c415400$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Steve Parker, author of the original PAM37 ROM, has prepared the two ROM files needed to make Dave Wallace's Virtual H8 emulator operational. These are in the H8 ROMs folder - note that these are not straight binary dumps but rather dumps formatted especially for the emulator. I've also posted the Cassette SRM (Software Reference Manual, P/N 595-2048-01). Included in the same folder is the update document for Extended BH Basic 10.02.00 (HC8-13). When the original owner of this machine received the EBHB update, he discarded the superceded sections from the original BASIC section of the manual. I will replace these sections as soon as I locate them (in my physical archive) and update the .pdf file at that time. I also uploaded several "real" ROM binaries and manuals for the H8 H37/67 and H47 disk controllers. Jack -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From garlangr at verizon.net Fri Apr 30 22:50:45 2004 From: garlangr at verizon.net (Mark Garlanger) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 22:50:45 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] New Archive postings References: <000001c42eb5$5c415400$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <001a01c42f2f$7ba3fe90$6501010a@gr390> It's great that the ROMs for the H8 are now available... I have recompiled the virtual_h8 project, and based on some warnings, it appears to have a few bugs in the processor emulation. In the file processor.cpp, the following code is in four places: S = (A & 0x0080 != 0); And the compiler provides the following warning: c:\H8\code\virtual_h8\processor.cpp(2452) : warning C4554: '&' : check operator precedence for possible error; use parentheses to clarify precedence In looking at operator precedence, it does appear to be a problem since the precedence makes it equivelent to: S = (A & (0x0080 != 0 )); Which doesn't make any sense. It should be: S = ((A & 0x0080) != 0 ); I've sent email to the author (David Wallace) so it can be addressed in the next release. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Rubin" To: "SEBHC" Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 8:16 AM Subject: [sebhc] New Archive postings > Steve Parker, author of the original PAM37 ROM, has prepared the two ROM > files needed to make Dave Wallace's Virtual H8 emulator operational. > These are in the H8 ROMs folder - note that these are not straight > binary dumps but rather dumps formatted especially for the emulator. > > I've also posted the Cassette SRM (Software Reference Manual, P/N > 595-2048-01). Included in the same folder is the update document for > Extended BH Basic 10.02.00 (HC8-13). When the original owner of this > machine received the EBHB update, he discarded the superceded sections > from the original BASIC section of the manual. I will replace these > sections as soon as I locate them (in my physical archive) and update > the .pdf file at that time. > > I also uploaded several "real" ROM binaries and manuals for the H8 > H37/67 and H47 disk controllers. > > Jack > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Apr 30 23:20:05 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 23:20:05 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] New Archive postings In-Reply-To: <001a01c42f2f$7ba3fe90$6501010a@gr390> Message-ID: <000601c42f33$9544ad00$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> were you successful running the emulator with these changes to the source? > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Mark Garlanger > Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 10:51 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] New Archive postings > > > It's great that the ROMs for the H8 are now available... > > > I have recompiled the virtual_h8 project, and based on some > warnings, it appears to have a few bugs in the processor > emulation. In the file processor.cpp, the following code is > in four places: S = (A & 0x0080 != 0); > > And the compiler provides the following warning: > c:\H8\code\virtual_h8\processor.cpp(2452) : warning C4554: > '&' : check operator precedence for possible error; use > parentheses to clarify precedence > > In looking at operator precedence, it does appear to be a > problem since the precedence makes it equivelent to: S = (A & > (0x0080 != 0 )); > > Which doesn't make any sense. It should be: > S = ((A & 0x0080) != 0 ); > > I've sent email to the author (David Wallace) so it can be > addressed in the next release. > > Mark > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jack Rubin" > To: "SEBHC" > Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 8:16 AM > Subject: [sebhc] New Archive postings > > > > Steve Parker, author of the original PAM37 ROM, has > prepared the two > > ROM files needed to make Dave Wallace's Virtual H8 emulator > > operational. These are in the H8 ROMs folder - note that > these are not > > straight binary dumps but rather dumps formatted especially for the > > emulator. > > > > I've also posted the Cassette SRM (Software Reference Manual, P/N > > 595-2048-01). Included in the same folder is the update > document for > > Extended BH Basic 10.02.00 (HC8-13). When the original > owner of this > > machine received the EBHB update, he discarded the > superceded sections > > from the original BASIC section of the manual. I will replace these > > sections as soon as I locate them (in my physical archive) > and update > > the .pdf file at that time. > > > > I also uploaded several "real" ROM binaries and manuals for the H8 > > H37/67 and H47 disk controllers. > > > > Jack > > > > -- > > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From garlangr at verizon.net Fri Apr 30 23:44:51 2004 From: garlangr at verizon.net (Mark Garlanger) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 23:44:51 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] New Archive postings References: <000601c42f33$9544ad00$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <002401c42f37$0a41aec0$6501010a@gr390> Yes it appears to work fine. Although with both the 'official' binary, and my compile program, loading either of the 'benchmark' tapes don't appear to do anything (but it could just be user error). But the console_echo tape seems to function as expected. Anyone interested in adding an option for the H9 terminal instead of only the H19? It shouldn't be too hard with the H9 Operational Manual that I uploaded to the archives. If done right, it would then be easy (if we have the manual) to also add in an H29 option. Maybe we can generate some interest and work on H17 support in the emulator. Another thing I would be interested in doing is to get this also working under Linux. Although that would be a much bigger undertaking due to all the GUI changes required. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Rubin" To: Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 11:20 PM Subject: RE: [sebhc] New Archive postings > were you successful running the emulator with these changes to the > source? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > > Mark Garlanger > > Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 10:51 PM > > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > > Subject: Re: [sebhc] New Archive postings > > > > > > It's great that the ROMs for the H8 are now available... > > > > > > I have recompiled the virtual_h8 project, and based on some > > warnings, it appears to have a few bugs in the processor > > emulation. In the file processor.cpp, the following code is > > in four places: S = (A & 0x0080 != 0); > > > > And the compiler provides the following warning: > > c:\H8\code\virtual_h8\processor.cpp(2452) : warning C4554: > > '&' : check operator precedence for possible error; use > > parentheses to clarify precedence > > > > In looking at operator precedence, it does appear to be a > > problem since the precedence makes it equivelent to: S = (A & > > (0x0080 != 0 )); > > > > Which doesn't make any sense. It should be: > > S = ((A & 0x0080) != 0 ); > > > > I've sent email to the author (David Wallace) so it can be > > addressed in the next release. > > > > Mark > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jack Rubin" > > To: "SEBHC" > > Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 8:16 AM > > Subject: [sebhc] New Archive postings > > > > > > > Steve Parker, author of the original PAM37 ROM, has > > prepared the two > > > ROM files needed to make Dave Wallace's Virtual H8 emulator > > > operational. These are in the H8 ROMs folder - note that > > these are not > > > straight binary dumps but rather dumps formatted especially for the > > > emulator. > > > > > > I've also posted the Cassette SRM (Software Reference Manual, P/N > > > 595-2048-01). Included in the same folder is the update > > document for > > > Extended BH Basic 10.02.00 (HC8-13). When the original > > owner of this > > > machine received the EBHB update, he discarded the > > superceded sections > > > from the original BASIC section of the manual. I will replace these > > > sections as soon as I locate them (in my physical archive) > > and update > > > the .pdf file at that time. > > > > > > I also uploaded several "real" ROM binaries and manuals for the H8 > > > H37/67 and H47 disk controllers. > > > > > > Jack > > > > > > -- > > > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List