[sebhc] H8 hardware request - docs, info

Carroll Waddell CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com
Tue Apr 13 14:09:27 CDT 2004


I am currently working to restore an H8 tape system. I still have binary 
images of the original Heath tapes stored in my PC. As soon as I can 
re-create them, I will be happy to send you a set. (If it's legal. I'm 
not sure who holds the copyright on the tapes.
Carroll

Dave Dunfield wrote:

>>The Altair struck me (and many others, I think) as a diamond in the
>>rough; a truly great design, but flawed in its implementation. It was
>>the flaws that got in my way of making it really shine. Others, like
>>you, managed to work around them.
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>The Altair 8800 was *hard* to assemble. It had *hundreds* of loose wires
>>connecting the boards. All those toggle switches were hand-wired. There
>>were one-shots to adjust. The S-100 bus was poorly designed and had
>>problems like an inadequate number of power and ground traces. The board
>>layouts were bad, with not enough bypass capacitors, jumper wires and
>>tacked-on fixes. You had to program it in binary. All of these can be
>>dealt with by a skilled technician; but they are major roadblocks to a
>>beginner.
>>    
>>
>
>I am reminded of a quote... I've forgotten the exact source, but it was
>from one of the early people in aviation, and it goes something like:
>"people look back at our designs and say they were impractical... but
>you have one big advantage in looking back... You KNOW what an airplane
>is supposed to look like - we did not".
>
>MITS had no idea what a personal computer should look like - the Altair
>is more like a minicomputer of the day. Lights, switches and bootstrapping by
>manually loading binary code were how computers of the day worked, Ed and
>company drew on their own experiences and information at hand.
>
>Was it the "ultimate personal computer" - definately not. Was it the best
>it could have been - nope. Was there room for improvement - plenty. But
>does it warrent the title "terrible" - I don't think so, it worked as
>expected, and was a lot more practical than anything else available in 1975.
>Thats the only point I wish to make.
>
>
>  
>
>>The H8 is basically the same machine, but repackaged to make it far
>>easier to build and use. As usual, Heath did a great job of writing the
>>manuals so even a beginner could build it. The design was far cleaner;
>>it probably took 10% of the time to build. The front panel was octal
>>instead of binary, which was easier to learn. I think the H8 bus is
>>better designed, so it is much easier to add memory or I/O boards.
>>    
>>
>
>My Altair came on the heels of several homebuilt wire-wrap computers, including
>one that even *looked* like the Altair - complete with front panel and switches.
>(how I wish I had kept that one - or at least a photo of it). At least the Altair
>had printed circuit boards - Coming from this background, the Altair made a lot
>of sense. Those wanting an off-the-shelf packaged appliance computer should have
>waited for the TRS-80 or Apple - the industry was just not ready to provide that
>yet. Yes, the H8 came closer two years later - but a couple of years after that
>you could by an off-the-shelf system that you didn't have to build, with BASIC in
>ROM and/or a boot disk --- does this imply that the H8 was a bad design... nope,
>just at a different point on a very rapidly moving timeline.
>
>Btw, the Altair front panel was laid out in octal grouping - this was natural for
>the 8080 CPU chip, although coming from a mainframe background I have always preferred
>and worked in hex.
>
>
>  
>
>>>Have you seen the Series-2 IMSAI?
>>>      
>>>
>>Yes. But I think they have taken a wrong turn. It's a lovely, powerful
>>machine. But it's very expensive and complicated, and still can't
>>compete with modern PCs.
>>    
>>
>
>Agreed - although I don't think the point is to compete with modern PC's.
>(Thats why I dislike the notion of putting an ATX mainboard in it).
>
>
>
>  
>
>>... Why use noisy high-power TTL when you can get quiet low-power HC?
>>    
>>
>
>Why do die-hard large scale model railroaders use "live steam" when they
>could just tuck in a weed-wacker motor. To try and present as close an
>approximation to the original and environment design as possible. This is
>because their goal is to preserve the era of live steam - not to build a
>better more modern locomotive.
>
>Same is true for replica computers - otherwise all you really have is a
>simulator in a box.
>
>
>  
>
>>Today's PCs are no longer "Personal Computers" -- they are appliances;
>>inscrutible boxes that no one builds, no one programs, no one
>>understands.
>>
>>Everyone has to start at the bottom and work their way up. You learn to
>>ride a bicycle before a motorcycle. You fly a model airplane before a
>>real one. And to really learn about electronics and computers, you have
>>to start with something simple enough so you can truly understand it.
>>
>>If we expect today's kids to grow up to be tomorrow's computer
>>designers, they need a way to get started on that long ladder up. The
>>old Altair 8800, and H8, and other old computers gave us that ladder.
>>Sure, they were "toys" by modern standards -- but we sure had a lot of
>>fun (and learned a lot) playing with those toys!
>>    
>>
>
>Excellent sentiments, and ones that I share, however as I have been fairly
>active in promoting "back to the basics" computer education for kids, I can
>tell you it ain't goint to happen. Schools are turning out "applicance
>operators", and that is exactly what 99% of the world wants. (ie: where the
>money is).
>
>For a while I ran a small "computer club" at out local school. I recall the
>first time I took in my Altair and set it up, proudly giving a demonstration
>of what "personal computing" was like in days gone by - The very first question
>asked was "Why did anyone ever want a computer that wasn't any good?"
>
>Kids are used to "video games" (even when they are called "operating systems"),
>and in my opinion, an H8 or Altair simply isn't going to hold their interest
>long enough for them to absorb any of the really good stuff that we learned.
>
>So, I've taken a different approach, I use microcontrollers, robots, gadgets
>and things that move and talk to keep kids interested. Essentially allowing
>them to do things they can't do with a PC. Building a robot that can follow
>a beam of light gives em a lot more low level skills than writing a visual
>basic control for a web page...
>
>
>As for the early machines.. I am actively collecting, repairing and preserving
>as much of the original material as I can.
>
>
>  
>
>>My thought is an 'open source' design, that anyone can
>>download and copy freely. Offer bare boards, or parts kits, or maybe
>>even a complete kit if the market is there, but keep them reasonably
>>priced. The whole point is to get people building, and learning, and
>>having fun with computers again.
>>    
>>
>
>I like this idea - that way the individual can decide if he wants to build
>a detailed model, or just a work-alike machine.
>
>
>finally: Just to get this back on subject - it's clear that I need to spend
>some "quality time" with my H8. One of my immediate goals is to be able to
>check out the machine, and also to complete the original set of materials
>that would have been distributed with it.
>
>For this reason, I REALLY would like to find copies of the original software:
>
>Here's the original request I posted to the classic computers mailing list,
>if anyone can help provide copies of this material, I would appreciate it
>very much.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Hi, I've recently acquired a Heathkit H8, however I did not receive the
>original software. I do have documentation for the following packages,
>which all appear to be original Heathkit distributions on cassette tape:
>
>   BUG-8 Console Debugger
>   TED-8 Text Editor
>   HASL-8 Assembly Language package
>   Benton Harbor BASIC / Extended Benton Harbor BASIC
>
>I'm looking for copies of the software. I'd love to obtain original Heathkit
>tapes, however I would be happy just to obtain the binaries or even audio
>recordings of the tapes.
>
>If anyone can help, please contact me - thanks in advance.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I'd also REALLY like to locate a disk controller for it - An original Heath
>board would be ideal, but I'd be "almost as happy" with a working replica.
>
>Regards,
>Dave
>  
>


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