From sp11 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 1 00:47:32 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 05:47:32 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] Soft or Hard? Message-ID: >the reason this whole thing started was to be able to use soft sector disks >in a hard sector controller. The only reason to do that was to be able to >use disks that are easier to come by. Why not just punch sector holes in the diskettes? :-) _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page ? FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Jul 1 05:25:06 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:25:06 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [sebhc] Soft or Hard? Message-ID: <20081941.1088677506876.JavaMail.root@rowlf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> personally, I don't have the tools to make a proper hole punch that could "accurately" add the holes to a disk. It is a lot easier for me to design an electronics related solution to the problem. Besides, once you have punched the hole electronically, you don't have to do it for every disk you want to use... best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Steven Parker Sent: Jul 1, 2004 1:47 AM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] Soft or Hard? >the reason this whole thing started was to be able to use soft sector disks >in a hard sector controller. The only reason to do that was to be able to >use disks that are easier to come by. Why not just punch sector holes in the diskettes? :-) _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page ? FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jwt at OnJapan.net Thu Jul 1 07:38:16 2004 From: jwt at OnJapan.net (Jim Tittsler) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:38:16 +0900 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute In-Reply-To: <40E301D5.5E30@earthlink.net> References: <20040630104018.A221A1EC317@outbox.allstream.net> <40E301D5.5E30@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040701123816.GA28412@server.onjapan.net> On Wed, Jun 30, 2004 at 11:09:25AM -0700, Lee Hart wrote: > You know, the funny thing is that we have source for the Heath software, > and all the tools for writing 8080/Z80 code. We could just write a new > H17 driver that doesn't depend on the sector holes. No new hardware at > all is needed. One of the easiest ways might be a "sector-per-track" hack, blocking and unblocking in software. You trade off speed on random writes (and drive wow/flutter spec tolerance) for ease of implementation. -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 1 09:55:01 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 07:55:01 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Soft or Hard? In-Reply-To: <20081941.1088677506876.JavaMail.root@rowlf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200407011455.i61EsxTp013203@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 14:54:59 -0000 I did not realize that there would be so much interest in hard sector disks. Just in case anyone is interested, I found a couple of sources on the web" http://www.athana.com/html/diskette.html http://www.cadigital.com/media.htm I have no experience with these, but thought I would share the information. Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Thu Jul 1 11:43:44 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:43:44 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Soft or Hard? In-Reply-To: <200407011455.i61EsxTp013203@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <002301c45f8a$92d6c210$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Peter, I already have an order in for the list (bulk). If you'd like to join, let me know ASAP... Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 7:55 AM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: RE: [sebhc] Soft or Hard? > > > I did not realize that there would be so much interest in > hard sector disks. Just in case anyone is interested, I found > a couple of sources on the web" > > http://www.athana.com/html/diskette.html > http://www.cadigital.com/media.htm > > I have no experience with these, but thought I would share > the information. > > Peter > ----------------------------------------------------------- > peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Thu Jul 1 17:02:20 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 18:02:20 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Ferric Chloride Message-ID: <40E489EC.9050906@sc.rr.com> If any of you like to etch your own PC boards, don't make the same mistake I made. I had a bunch of diskettes in the same building where I etch boards. None of them will work now. I had to pitch them out and get new ones. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Thu Jul 1 16:58:09 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 17:58:09 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] hard or soft Message-ID: <40E488F1.9020006@sc.rr.com> I was just thinking that if we could build a sector pulse generator to use soft sector diskettes in the H17, it would be nice to build in a circuit that could detect if the diskette was hard or soft sector. If hard, then pass the sector pulses through. If soft, then generate the pulses. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jul 1 17:06:12 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] hard or soft Message-ID: <200407012206.PAA25544@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Carroll Waddell" > >I was just thinking that if we could build a sector pulse generator to >use soft sector diskettes in the H17, it would be nice to build in a >circuit that could detect if the diskette was hard or soft sector. If >hard, then pass the sector pulses through. If soft, then generate the >pulses. >Carroll Hi I'm not sure what good this would do. The two formats are not compatable and one controller can't read the others data. There'd be little reason to detect between the two coming out of the drive. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Jul 1 17:16:30 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:16:30 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [sebhc] hard or soft Message-ID: <19303944.1088720191935.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthlink.net> this was exactly what I had intended the PIC chip to do with regards to "sensing" the disk type and only generating hard sector pulses for disks that did not have the extra holes in them. It would "pass" true sector holes (no sense adding any time deviation when you have the real thing with HS disks). best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Carroll Waddell Sent: Jul 1, 2004 5:58 PM To: sebhc Subject: [sebhc] hard or soft I was just thinking that if we could build a sector pulse generator to use soft sector diskettes in the H17, it would be nice to build in a circuit that could detect if the diskette was hard or soft sector. If hard, then pass the sector pulses through. If soft, then generate the pulses. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Jul 1 17:13:53 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:13:53 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [sebhc] hard or soft Message-ID: <11498383.1088720033634.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthlink.net> what Carroll was tring to say is that in a H17 hard sector controller, it would make no difference whether you put a SS disk or a HS disk in. The drive would still work and the disk would be treated as a HS disk. It was not an attempt to make a hard sector controller read a soft sector formatted disk... correct me if I have interpreted things wrong Carroll. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Jul 1, 2004 6:06 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] hard or soft >From: "Carroll Waddell" > >I was just thinking that if we could build a sector pulse generator to >use soft sector diskettes in the H17, it would be nice to build in a >circuit that could detect if the diskette was hard or soft sector. If >hard, then pass the sector pulses through. If soft, then generate the >pulses. >Carroll Hi I'm not sure what good this would do. The two formats are not compatable and one controller can't read the others data. There'd be little reason to detect between the two coming out of the drive. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Thu Jul 1 20:05:02 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 18:05:02 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] hard or soft References: <200407012206.PAA25544@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <40E4B4BE.BC7@earthlink.net> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > >From: "Carroll Waddell" > > > >I was just thinking that if we could build a sector pulse generator to > >use soft sector diskettes in the H17, it would be nice to build in a > >circuit that could detect if the diskette was hard or soft sector. If > >hard, then pass the sector pulses through. If soft, then generate the > >pulses. > >Carroll > > Hi > I'm not sure what good this would do. The two formats > are not compatable and one controller can't read the others > data. There'd be little reason to detect between the two > coming out of the drive. The reason is so you can put either real hard-sector disks, or soft-sector disks formatted as hard-sector, into the same drive, and have the computer automatically work. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Thu Jul 1 20:03:57 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 18:03:57 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] hard or soft References: <40E488F1.9020006@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <40E4B47D.2610@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > > I was just thinking that if we could build a sector pulse generator to > use soft sector diskettes in the H17, it would be nice to build in a > circuit that could detect if the diskette was hard or soft sector. If > hard, then pass the sector pulses through. If soft, then generate the > pulses. Yes; this happened automatically with my old circuit (I wonder if I can find it?). It always passed real index hole pulses straight thru, but omitted the synthesized sector holes if it couldn't achieve lock (and it couldn't with a real hard-sector disk because there were too many holes). -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Thu Jul 1 20:44:57 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:44:57 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] hard or soft In-Reply-To: <11498383.1088720033634.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <11498383.1088720033634.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40E4BE19.2070005@sc.rr.com> yep, that's it cw Steve Thatcher wrote: >what Carroll was tring to say is that in a H17 hard sector controller, it would make no difference whether you put a SS disk or a HS disk in. The drive would still work and the disk would be treated as a HS disk. It was not an attempt to make a hard sector controller read a soft sector formatted disk... > >correct me if I have interpreted things wrong Carroll. > >best regards, Steve Thatcher > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >Sent: Jul 1, 2004 6:06 PM >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Subject: Re: [sebhc] hard or soft > > > >>From: "Carroll Waddell" >> >>I was just thinking that if we could build a sector pulse generator to >>use soft sector diskettes in the H17, it would be nice to build in a >>circuit that could detect if the diskette was hard or soft sector. If >>hard, then pass the sector pulses through. If soft, then generate the >>pulses. >>Carroll >> >> > >Hi > I'm not sure what good this would do. The two formats >are not compatable and one controller can't read the others >data. There'd be little reason to detect between the two >coming out of the drive. >Dwight > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > From wm65805 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 2 08:17:08 2004 From: wm65805 at hotmail.com (Bill malcolm) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 08:17:08 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H-67 interface notes: Message-ID: Hi : all I just read the information on the h-67 interface -- it is a SCSI type , so I plan to post info for for building an adapter cable for both 25 pin ( mac kind ) 50 pin ( the usual type). I am think of using both 100 meg Zip drive and also a 44 meg Syquest SCSI drive. I will be coding a partition program later for both CP/M and HDOS. I was also thinking of coding a boot selector. Any thoughts an this? bill .. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page ? FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com Fri Jul 2 11:02:26 2004 From: RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com (West, Ronald S.) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:02:26 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H-67 interface notes: Message-ID: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9D21@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Bill, Go for it. I think there will be folks interested in this. I have been working on an IDE interface for some time but efforts have stalled due to work and personal life. I will get back on track soon and provide a schematic (now partially finished) for folks to experiment with. The 100Meg Zip drive would be cool as its portable and about the right size for HDOS. From what I have found, HDOS has a 33.5MB limit on storage space due to using a 16bit word to address sectors on disk. That is only if it allows us to use 512 bytes per sector. If we are limited to 256 then will only have half of that. Keep us updated. Ron > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Bill malcolm > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 9:17 AM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: RE: [sebhc] H-67 interface notes: > > > > Hi : all > I just read the information on the h-67 interface -- it is a > SCSI type , so > I plan to post info for for building an adapter cable for > both 25 pin ( mac > kind ) 50 pin ( the usual type). > > I am think of using both 100 meg Zip drive and also a 44 meg > Syquest SCSI > drive. I will be coding a partition program later for both > CP/M and HDOS. > I was also thinking of coding a boot selector. > > Any thoughts an this? > > bill .. > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web > page - FREE > download! > http://toolbar.msn.click-> url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ > > > -- > Delivered by the > SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Fri Jul 2 11:14:38 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 12:14:38 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H-67 interface notes: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40E589EE.805@sc.rr.com> sounds good to me CEW Bill malcolm wrote: > > Hi : all > I just read the information on the h-67 interface -- it is a SCSI type > , so I plan to post info for for building an adapter cable for both 25 > pin ( mac kind ) 50 pin ( the usual type). > > I am think of using both 100 meg Zip drive and also a 44 meg Syquest > SCSI drive. I will be coding a partition program later for both CP/M > and HDOS. I was also thinking of coding a boot selector. > > Any thoughts an this? > > bill .. > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page ? > FREE download! > http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Jul 6 11:56:50 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:56:50 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] STICK PARITY Message-ID: <40EAD9D2.5060407@sc.rr.com> While working on my new H19 emulation program, I ran into a term I'm not familiar with. STICK PARITY. It is an option set by the DIP switches in the H19. I know that the parity bit can be missing, (N), even parity (E), odd parity (O), mark (M) or space (S), but what is STICK? Is it some form of Mark or Space? I'm trying to make my emulation program behave exactly like an H19. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 6 12:35:34 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] CPM Message-ID: <200407061735.KAA00199@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Last week I got an image file for CP/M to run on hard sectored disk. It had SuperCalc on it so I needed to do a little post processing because I don't want to have any copyright issues on our group. Maybe someone can find the owners of this program to get permission to post it as well. There are a couple of people in the group that have full release issues of CP/M2.2 but I thought I'd get things started. I've created an image with the SuperCalc deleted so that we can get started. Once the disk had SuperCalc deleted, there was only STAT and PIP left. I wanted to include some more stuff so I decided to write a program that would transfer a CP/M files that I had on my PC to the image file. These files and more can be found on the web. It was to be a simple project. It ended up taking most of my weekend. To write the code, only took me about 3 to 4 hours. I then started to debug and realized that there were a number of things I didn't fully understand about the CP/M directory structure. Rather than ripping up my code and starting again, I did a bunch of patching ( usually a bad idea but one thinks it will just take a couple of patches ). After some time ( about twice as long as writing the code ) I finally got everything working( Why are we such slow learners? ). I wanted to make the code so that anyone could use it and release it to the group. Up till then, I'd been just running it in FPC ( a public domain Forth ). I needed to convert it to a more useable format for all. I used a program called TCOM that creates small *.COM files for DOS. TCOM is mostly OK with Forth source that works under FPC ( written by the same fellow ) but has limitation on the relative sizes of the code within control structures ( like if else then ). This required some factoring of the code ( always a good idea anyway ). Of course, I broke the code a couple times in the process and had to debug that. I finally got things to work. I had the files for a few useful CP/M utilities so I created a disk image with these on it. I had ASM, DDT, ED, LOAD and DUMP added to the disk with the original PIP and STAT. Things like FORMAT will have to wait until we get a release image since it is machine dependent code. I have sent the code in for the ftp and it should be available later on the FTP. To run this CP/M, you need a machine with 64K of zero based RAM , XCON8 ( the Z80 board or a modified 8080 system ) and a 5-1/4 hard sectored disk system. You can used my H89LDR utility to transfer the image to the H8/89 or similar. MAKE SURE TO SET THE VOLUME NUMBER OVERRIDE TO '0' FOR ANY CP/M DISK!!!! These are not HDOS disk and there is no volume number information in the images for my transfer program to look for. I have include the following: CPMWR.COM a DOS file to copy CP/M compatible files to a CP/M disk image file ( assuming that there is space on the disk for the file ). CPMWR.SEQ Source for CPMWR for your enjoyment. CPM22.IMG Bootable CP/M image with PIP and STAT only. My *.IMG are the same as *.H8D format. CPM22P.IMG Same as above but with ASM, DDT, ED, LOAD and DUMP added CPMWR.TXT A read me file. Please actually read. I've sent these as CPMWR.ZIP so I'm not sure if they'll split these out for the FTP or not. It has both a utility file and image files. This should get those that have been waiting for some CP/M to play with a chance to get started. We still need things like FORMAT, SYSGEN, CONFIGUR and DISKCOPY. Right now, the only way to make new formatted disk is to use my transfer program ( not exactly a friendly method ). If someone puts to gether some include files for the ASM with system specific info, let the entire group get copies. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From waltm22 at comcast.net Tue Jul 6 14:39:34 2004 From: waltm22 at comcast.net (Walter Moore) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:39:34 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] STICK PARITY In-Reply-To: <40EAD9D2.5060407@sc.rr.com> References: <40EAD9D2.5060407@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040706123340.02107f28@mail.comcast.net> >While working on my new H19 emulation program, I ran into a term I'm not >familiar with. STICK PARITY. It is an option set by the DIP switches in >the H19. I know that the parity bit can be missing, (N), even parity (E), >odd parity (O), mark (M) or space (S), but what is STICK? >Is it some form of Mark or Space? Yes. This is how they get mark and space. With the 8250, when you select Stick Parity, the parity bit is transmitted and received in the opposite state of the parity select bit (and switch). So if you select "Even Parity" and "Stick Parity", you will get a space,. "Odd Parity" and "Stick Parity" should give you a mark. Check out the Line Control Register, bit 3 (Parity Enable), bit 4 (Even Parity Select) and bit 5 (Stick Parity) in either the H8-4 manual or the H-47 manual. ..walt -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Jul 6 15:26:34 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:26:34 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] STICK PARITY In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040706123340.02107f28@mail.comcast.net> References: <40EAD9D2.5060407@sc.rr.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20040706123340.02107f28@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <40EB0AFA.8050708@sc.rr.com> Thanks a bunch. CEW Walter Moore wrote: > >> While working on my new H19 emulation program, I ran into a term I'm >> not familiar with. STICK PARITY. It is an option set by the DIP >> switches in the H19. I know that the parity bit can be missing, (N), >> even parity (E), odd parity (O), mark (M) or space (S), but what is >> STICK? >> Is it some form of Mark or Space? > > > > Yes. This is how they get mark and space. With the 8250, when you > select Stick Parity, the parity bit is transmitted and received in the > opposite state of the parity select bit (and switch). So if you > select "Even Parity" and "Stick Parity", you will get a space,. "Odd > Parity" and "Stick Parity" should give you a mark. > > Check out the Line Control Register, bit 3 (Parity Enable), bit 4 > (Even Parity Select) and bit 5 (Stick Parity) in either the H8-4 > manual or the H-47 manual. > > ..walt > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Jul 6 16:57:22 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:57:22 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] [Fwd: Re: Heathkit Hard Sector] Message-ID: <40EB2042.5020906@sc.rr.com> These people have small quantity 10 hard sector diskettes CEW -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "California Digital Inc." Subject: Re: Heathkit Hard Sector Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Size: 1876 URL: From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 7 10:12:42 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:12:42 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] CPM In-Reply-To: <200407061735.KAA00199@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200407071512.i67FCOxA049813@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp807.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2004 15:12:18 -0000 Where did the files get saved to? Also, how can I make additional images for such disks? I have software of my own that I would share, but how to post it? Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Dwight K. Elvey > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 10:36 AM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: RE: [sebhc] CPM > > Hi > Last week I got an image file for CP/M to run on hard sectored > disk. It had SuperCalc on it so I needed to do a little post > processing because I don't want to have any copyright issues > on our group. Maybe someone can find the owners of this program > to get permission to post it as well. > I have include the following: > > CPMWR.COM a DOS file to copy CP/M compatible files to > a CP/M disk image file ( assuming that there is > space on the disk for the file ). > CPMWR.SEQ Source for CPMWR for your enjoyment. > CPM22.IMG Bootable CP/M image with PIP and STAT only. > My *.IMG are the same as *.H8D format. > CPM22P.IMG Same as above but with ASM, DDT, ED, LOAD > and DUMP added > CPMWR.TXT A read me file. Please actually read. > > I've sent these as CPMWR.ZIP so I'm not sure if they'll split > these out for the FTP or not. It has both a utility file and -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jul 7 16:00:19 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:00:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] CPM Message-ID: <200407072100.OAA01553@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Peter I have problems sending directly to the ftp. I send it indirectly through Steven Parker and he post it. The ftp does have place for uploads ( message at the bottom of the file list if using a web broWser ). When he post it, CPMWR.ZIP should be on the ftp. The program CPMWR.COM will transfer files into a CPM image. To move images to and from the H8/89, use my program This image trasfer program is already there. It is: http://www.sebhc.org/archive/utilities/H89LDR8.ZIP This has the program that can be used to transfer images to and from the H8/89. Eric already has a program to move files to an image. I looked on the web page but don't see it. It would be: "fstool -A -F hcpm... file1 file2..." Is this what your asking? Right now, I don't have a way to get programs from a CPM disk other than to use the CPM PIP command with the O option and copy the serial to a file. Of course, one can move an entire image, as stated above. Dwight >From: Peter > >Where did the files get saved to? Also, how can I make additional images for >such disks? I have software of my own that I would share, but how to post >it? > >Peter >----------------------------------------------------------- >peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of >> Dwight K. Elvey >> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 10:36 AM >> To: sebhc at sebhc.org >> Subject: RE: [sebhc] CPM >> >> Hi >> Last week I got an image file for CP/M to run on hard sectored >> disk. It had SuperCalc on it so I needed to do a little post >> processing because I don't want to have any copyright issues >> on our group. Maybe someone can find the owners of this program >> to get permission to post it as well. >> I have include the following: >> >> CPMWR.COM a DOS file to copy CP/M compatible files to >> a CP/M disk image file ( assuming that there is >> space on the disk for the file ). >> CPMWR.SEQ Source for CPMWR for your enjoyment. >> CPM22.IMG Bootable CP/M image with PIP and STAT only. >> My *.IMG are the same as *.H8D format. >> CPM22P.IMG Same as above but with ASM, DDT, ED, LOAD >> and DUMP added >> CPMWR.TXT A read me file. Please actually read. >> >> I've sent these as CPMWR.ZIP so I'm not sure if they'll split >> these out for the FTP or not. It has both a utility file and > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Wed Jul 7 20:22:57 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 21:22:57 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H19 Message-ID: <40ECA1F1.3010805@sc.rr.com> If anyone's interested, theres an H19 on ebay. $35.00 buy it now CW -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Thu Jul 8 14:31:59 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 15:31:59 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] PAT - disks Message-ID: <40EDA12F.9000608@sc.rr.com> Pat, Have you heard any more from the people who supplies your diskettes? I contacted a place called California Digital who has them. They responded quickly when I told them there were a group of people interested in them. However, when I sent them another email and said I only wanted 20 diskettes, they never responded back. I bought some used 10 hard sector diskettes through ebay, (suppossedly "primo"), but they looked like they had been stored in an old vaccuum cleaner, and only a few of them would format. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Thu Jul 8 14:27:54 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 15:27:54 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] SUCCESS Message-ID: <40EDA03A.30200@sc.rr.com> Thanks to Lee Hart, Eric Rothfus, and Walt Moore, I now have a 3 disk, H8, CP/M system up and running for the first time in over 20 years. Thanks guys for the help. BTW, I am using old IBM 360K drives. I've bought several NOS drives through ebay. At least you can find them. The Siemens FDD100 drives that Heath used are a scarce as hens teeth. I've used both the full height and the half height. Both work just as well. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jul 8 16:31:11 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:31:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] SUCCESS Message-ID: <200407082131.OAA02655@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Carroll And you've created some images for me? Dwight >From: "Carroll Waddell" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Thanks to Lee Hart, Eric Rothfus, and Walt Moore, I now have a 3 disk, >H8, CP/M system up and running for the first time in over 20 years. >Thanks guys for the help. >BTW, I am using old IBM 360K drives. I've bought several NOS drives >through ebay. At least you can find them. The Siemens FDD100 drives that >Heath used are a scarce as hens teeth. I've used both the full height >and the half height. Both work just as well. >Carroll >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Thu Jul 8 16:45:45 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 17:45:45 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] SUCCESS In-Reply-To: <200407082131.OAA02655@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200407082131.OAA02655@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <40EDC089.9010100@sc.rr.com> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >Hi Carroll > And you've created some images for me? >Dwight > > > > >>From: "Carroll Waddell" >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >>Thanks to Lee Hart, Eric Rothfus, and Walt Moore, I now have a 3 disk, >>H8, CP/M system up and running for the first time in over 20 years. >>Thanks guys for the help. >>BTW, I am using old IBM 360K drives. I've bought several NOS drives >>through ebay. At least you can find them. The Siemens FDD100 drives that >>Heath used are a scarce as hens teeth. I've used both the full height >>and the half height. Both work just as well. >>Carroll >>-- >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> >> >> > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > I haven't tried yet. Will your program read images from a CP/M disk? If so, I have the 3 original CP/M distribution diskettes I got from Lee Hart. I'll give it a try and see what happens. Carroll From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Thu Jul 8 16:57:12 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 17:57:12 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] RE: H8 tapes for Dave - archiving tapes? In-Reply-To: <407E1563.614A@earthlink.net> References: <200404142354.QAA04045@clulw009.amd.com> <407E1563.614A@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40EDC338.5030209@sc.rr.com> Just looking over some old emails. On my H8, I have both an H8-4, H8-5, and H17 controller. I can run CP/M, HDOS, or tape software. The only thing I have to do is connect the H19 terminal to the H8-5 board for tape software, or to the H8-4 board for disk software. Carroll Lee Hart wrote: >Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > >>I remember that you can have the tape card or the floppy >>card but not both because of a port overlap. This should >>be similar for the H8. >> >> > >Heath had two I/O decoder ROMs for the H89. The early one (444-43) >decoded I/O addresses for the hard-sector controller board (H88-1), >3-port serial board (H88-3), and the cassette board (H88-5). > >The later one (444-61) decoded I/O addresses for all 4 disk controller >boards (H17, H37, H47, and H67) and the 3-port serial board, but *not* >the cassette board. > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jul 8 16:55:32 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] SUCCESS Message-ID: <200407082155.OAA02674@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Carroll Waddell" > >Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >>Hi Carroll >> And you've created some images for me? >>Dwight >> ---snip--- >> >> >> >I haven't tried yet. Will your program read images from a CP/M disk? If >so, I have the 3 original CP/M distribution diskettes I got from Lee Hart. >I'll give it a try and see what happens. >Carroll Hi As long as you remember to set the volume # override to "0". This seems to be the rule with non-HDOS disk. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jul 8 17:09:14 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] RE: H8 tapes for Dave - archiving tapes? Message-ID: <200407082209.PAA02687@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Carroll You can probably run both boards. The HDOS does go out and check to see which board you have. I don't know if there is any order or if it is just which board the HDOS finds first. You might experiment. I've not looked at the CP/M. I'd expect it to be configuable. You should jumper the H8-5 for something less than 9600. Because of what we were seeing with the image transfer program, I'd say it was running right on the edge. I'm thinking of adding an option to set the baud rate for those that only have fussy H8-5's to talk to. For those that are expecting to put the CP/M on their system, you'll need a system with the XCON8 and the Z80 board or there was a memory mapping board that went into the last slot that would allow zero mapped memory. Does anyone have the schematic for that card ( I forget what it is called )? Dwight >From: "Carroll Waddell" > >Just looking over some old emails. >On my H8, I have both an H8-4, H8-5, and H17 controller. I can run CP/M, >HDOS, or tape software. The only thing I have to do is connect the H19 >terminal to the H8-5 board for tape software, or to the H8-4 board for >disk software. >Carroll > >Lee Hart wrote: > >>Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> >> >>>I remember that you can have the tape card or the floppy >>>card but not both because of a port overlap. This should >>>be similar for the H8. >>> >>> >> >>Heath had two I/O decoder ROMs for the H89. The early one (444-43) >>decoded I/O addresses for the hard-sector controller board (H88-1), >>3-port serial board (H88-3), and the cassette board (H88-5). >> >>The later one (444-61) decoded I/O addresses for all 4 disk controller >>boards (H17, H37, H47, and H67) and the 3-port serial board, but *not* >>the cassette board. >> >> -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jwt at OnJapan.net Thu Jul 8 17:18:50 2004 From: jwt at OnJapan.net (Jim Tittsler) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 07:18:50 +0900 Subject: [sebhc] Re: CP/M base address In-Reply-To: <200407082209.PAA02687@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200407082209.PAA02687@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20040708221850.GG26133@server.onjapan.net> On Thu, Jul 08, 2004 at 03:09:14PM -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > For those that are expecting to put the CP/M on their > system, you'll need a system with the XCON8 and the Z80 > board or there was a memory mapping board that went > into the last slot that would allow zero mapped memory. There was also a "high org" version of CP/M that ran on an unmodified H8 or H89 before the memory mapping trick came along. (Of course, you also need applications that were intended for the origin.) -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Thu Jul 8 18:00:21 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 19:00:21 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] RE: H8 tapes for Dave - archiving tapes? In-Reply-To: <200407082209.PAA02687@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200407082209.PAA02687@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <40EDD205.50306@sc.rr.com> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >Hi Carroll > You can probably run both boards. The HDOS does >go out and check to see which board you have. I >don't know if there is any order or if it is just >which board the HDOS finds first. You might experiment. > I've not looked at the CP/M. I'd expect it to be configuable. >You should jumper the H8-5 for something less than >9600. Because of what we were seeing with the image >transfer program, I'd say it was running right on >the edge. I'm thinking of adding an option to set the >baud rate for those that only have fussy H8-5's to >talk to. > For those that are expecting to put the CP/M on their >system, you'll need a system with the XCON8 and the Z80 >board or there was a memory mapping board that went >into the last slot that would allow zero mapped memory. > Does anyone have the schematic for that card ( I forget >what it is called )? >Dwight > > > > >>From: "Carroll Waddell" >> >>Just looking over some old emails. >>On my H8, I have both an H8-4, H8-5, and H17 controller. I can run CP/M, >>HDOS, or tape software. The only thing I have to do is connect the H19 >>terminal to the H8-5 board for tape software, or to the H8-4 board for >>disk software. >>Carroll >> >>Lee Hart wrote: >> >> >> >>>Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>I remember that you can have the tape card or the floppy >>>>card but not both because of a port overlap. This should >>>>be similar for the H8. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Heath had two I/O decoder ROMs for the H89. The early one (444-43) >>>decoded I/O addresses for the hard-sector controller board (H88-1), >>>3-port serial board (H88-3), and the cassette board (H88-5). >>> >>>The later one (444-61) decoded I/O addresses for all 4 disk controller >>>boards (H17, H37, H47, and H67) and the 3-port serial board, but *not* >>>the cassette board. >>> >>> >>> >>> > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > The board was the XCON8 extended configuration board. It lets me run with the 8080 board. CEW From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Jul 8 22:04:49 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:04:49 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] SUCCESS In-Reply-To: <40EDA03A.30200@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <000101c46561$7fe73b30$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Congratulations! > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Carroll Waddell > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 2:28 PM > To: sebhc > Subject: [sebhc] SUCCESS > > > Thanks to Lee Hart, Eric Rothfus, and Walt Moore, I now have > a 3 disk, > H8, CP/M system up and running for the first time in over 20 > years. Thanks guys for the help. BTW, I am using old IBM 360K > drives. I've bought several NOS drives > through ebay. At least you can find them. The Siemens FDD100 > drives that > Heath used are a scarce as hens teeth. I've used both the full height > and the half height. Both work just as well. > Carroll > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Thu Jul 8 22:08:45 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:08:45 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] PAT - disks In-Reply-To: <40EDA12F.9000608@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <009501c46562$0bea2070$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Carroll, I don't what the hold-up is. I'll call them. They've been responsive in the past, not quick, but responsive, and their media is good. I'll check with them tomorrow and let everyone know. Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Carroll Waddell > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 12:32 PM > To: sebhc > Subject: [sebhc] PAT - disks > > > Pat, > Have you heard any more from the people who supplies your > diskettes? I contacted a place called California Digital who > has them. They > responded quickly when I told them there were a group of people > interested in them. However, when I sent them another email > and said I > only wanted 20 diskettes, they never responded back. > I bought some used 10 hard sector diskettes through ebay, > (suppossedly > "primo"), but they looked like they had been stored in an old vaccuum > cleaner, and only a few of them would format. > Carroll > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sun Jul 11 06:45:58 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 07:45:58 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] MAKE Hard Sector Diskettes Message-ID: <40F12876.6030104@sc.rr.com> Is anyone interested in working on a project to build a device to make hard sector diskettes out of soft sector diskettes? It seems to me that it ought to be possible. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sun Jul 11 19:28:24 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:28:24 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute In-Reply-To: <20040630104018.A221A1EC317@outbox.allstream.net> References: <20040630104018.A221A1EC317@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <40F1DB28.2070207@sc.rr.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: >>Suppose you are copying files from one H17 to another H17 disk. The >>device that is creating the fake sector holes has to wait for a pair of >>index holes (one full revolution) each time it switches disks. So, while >>my hardware circuit worked, it was slower than real disks because of the >>extra time the H89 spent waiting for the disk to get "up to speed" >>(really, for the PLL circuit to lock in and start producing valid sector >>pulses). >> >> > >Does the H17 switch each drive motor off when selecting drives for a disk >to disk copy? > >The N* does not - when copying one disk to another, both drives stay on, >and the drives simply get selected back and forth. > >In fact, there is only one motor-on signal, so all drives come on for any >operation. Most drives can also be modified for "motor on select", however >every drive I've seen that does this also implements a timer so that the >drive remains on for a period of time between selects. > >I've thought about building such a device, and I decided that it would be >best to attach it to the drive (ie: one per drive - not one per controller). > >Basically, an itty-bitty micro (PIC, AVR etc.) would have to be able to see: > - Motor on signal (to the motor - not necessarily the drive interface) > - Index hole sensor (even when drive deselected > >And be able to drive the index hole output back to the drive (so it would be >gated by select) - alternatively - gate it externally. > >The MCU would watch the index hole, and could time how long from one edge >to the next - after 1-2 revolutions (depending on position if index hole) it >would be able to insert phony pulses to simulate the other 10/16 holes. > >By watching how long after motor-on before the first index pulse, you can >handle cases where the index hole is near the sensor and the drive is not >up to speed for the first pulse. > >As long as the motors are not turned off, you can continue to "sync" and >no further time is wasted. If the system turns the motors off when switching >from one drive to the other (I can't imagine a system that would do this), >you could add the Motor control to the output of the device, and implement >your own timer to delay shutting off the motor. > >An alternate solution: > >- Take a dead drive And modify it with a homemade punch that can punch > through the index hole. > - Put a 10 sector disk in it - carefully line up the 11th hole and put it > in the drive - mark this as the "master" position on the drive wheel > (Assuming a direct drive) > - Move the wheel for each of the other sectors, and mark the position on > the wheel > >- Now you have a jig for making 10-sector disks: > - Align soft-sector diskette to put index hole in position > - Aligh wheel to master postion and insert disk. > - Move wheel to other marked position and activate punch at each position. > >Tough part would be making the punch - any takers? > >Regards, >Dave > > Dave, I've been thinking about this. What I thought about was modifying an old diskette drive to punch the holes automatically. It would have to be modified to remove part of the drive where the index sensor is located. A slideable pice could be built that contains both an index hole sensor and a hole punch. A solenoid (or whatever) could move the index sensor so that it could sense the hole in the diskette. If there were a stepper motor used to rotate the disk, a Basic Stamp could rotate the diskette until the hole is sensed. This would be the 0 degree position. The slideable punch could then be positioned over the existing hole in the diskette and the jacket. The stepper motor could then be rotated 18 degrees and the first new hole punched. Next, the stepper motor could rotate the diskette 36 degrees (repeating this ten more times) to punch the remaining sector holes. A solenoid or something could be used to operate the hole punch. VIOLA! A new hard sector diskette made from an existing soft sector diskette. The difficult part would be to make the slideable index sensor / hole punch device. It would have to be thick enough and with a slot into which the diskette jacket could fit. Any new thoughts? Carroll From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Jul 11 20:19:18 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:19:18 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute Message-ID: <20040712011917.JKOI7326.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Dave, >I've been thinking about this. What I thought about was modifying an old >diskette drive to punch the holes automatically. It would have to be >modified to remove part of the drive where the index sensor is located. >A slideable pice could be built that contains both an index hole sensor >and a hole punch. A solenoid (or whatever) could move the index sensor >so that it could sense the hole in the diskette. If there were a stepper >motor used to rotate the disk, a Basic Stamp could rotate the diskette >until the hole is sensed. This would be the 0 degree position. The >slideable punch could then be positioned over the existing hole in the >diskette and the jacket. The stepper motor could then be rotated 18 >degrees and the first new hole punched. Next, the stepper motor could >rotate the diskette 36 degrees (repeating this ten more times) to punch >the remaining sector holes. A solenoid or something could be used to >operate the hole punch. VIOLA! A new hard sector diskette made from an >existing soft sector diskette. > >The difficult part would be to make the slideable index sensor / hole >punch device. It would have to be thick enough and with a slot into >which the diskette jacket could fit. > >Any new thoughts? Hi Carroll, I've had similar ideas - remove the drive motor (or just don't power it for direct-drive drive) and implement a stepper motor which gives accurate positioning of the media. You might be able to get away without having to move the sensor and hole punch if you make the punch retract far enough, and sense the hole at an angle - I think it would be simpler to just line up the hole before inserting the disk in the drive - with a stepper drive, the index hole will NOT move as you close the drive lever. Then it's just a matter of 'x' steps (Index to first hole distance), Punch, 'y' steps (hole to hole distance), Punch, repeat until at last hole. I'd have built one by now, but I have not been able to fashion a decent punch yet. Any ideas? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sun Jul 11 20:31:41 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:31:41 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute In-Reply-To: <20040712011917.JKOI7326.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20040712011917.JKOI7326.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <40F1E9FD.2050409@sc.rr.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: >>Dave, >>I've been thinking about this. What I thought about was modifying an old >>diskette drive to punch the holes automatically. It would have to be >>modified to remove part of the drive where the index sensor is located. >>A slideable pice could be built that contains both an index hole sensor >>and a hole punch. A solenoid (or whatever) could move the index sensor >>so that it could sense the hole in the diskette. If there were a stepper >>motor used to rotate the disk, a Basic Stamp could rotate the diskette >>until the hole is sensed. This would be the 0 degree position. The >>slideable punch could then be positioned over the existing hole in the >>diskette and the jacket. The stepper motor could then be rotated 18 >>degrees and the first new hole punched. Next, the stepper motor could >>rotate the diskette 36 degrees (repeating this ten more times) to punch >>the remaining sector holes. A solenoid or something could be used to >>operate the hole punch. VIOLA! A new hard sector diskette made from an >>existing soft sector diskette. >> >>The difficult part would be to make the slideable index sensor / hole >>punch device. It would have to be thick enough and with a slot into >>which the diskette jacket could fit. >> >>Any new thoughts? >> >> > >Hi Carroll, > >I've had similar ideas - remove the drive motor (or just don't power it >for direct-drive drive) and implement a stepper motor which gives accurate >positioning of the media. > >You might be able to get away without having to move the sensor and hole >punch if you make the punch retract far enough, and sense the hole at an >angle - I think it would be simpler to just line up the hole before >inserting the disk in the drive - with a stepper drive, the index hole will >NOT move as you close the drive lever. Then it's just a matter of >'x' steps (Index to first hole distance), Punch, 'y' steps (hole to hole >distance), Punch, repeat until at last hole. > >I'd have built one by now, but I have not been able to fashion a decent >punch yet. Any ideas? > >Regards, >Dave > > I measured the index hole and it appears to be .1" dia. I just found a hole punch on ebay that is 2.5mm (probably close enough to work). The reason I thought about making a moveable piece was to make the lower part the die into which the punch would go. I'm going to tear apart some printers, drives, or whatever else I can find that might have something usable. Of course the expensive way to go would be to machine the slide assembly from a solid block of metal. I had a hard time going to sleep last night, thinking of about a millions ways to do this. CEW From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 12 11:59:49 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute Message-ID: <200407121659.JAA06479@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I think you guys are getting a little carried away. A simple manual system is all that is needed unless you expect to go into production. One can make a simple manual punch with a section of drill stock and something as simple as a brass block to guide it. One can put some holes on the pulley to use as detent stops to align the punch on the disk. When I find time, that is exactly what I intend to do. I have all the parts and I'm just waiting for the time to deal with it. This isn't a high tech problem. Dwight >From: "Carroll Waddell" > >Dave Dunfield wrote: > >>>Dave, >>>I've been thinking about this. What I thought about was modifying an old >>>diskette drive to punch the holes automatically. It would have to be >>>modified to remove part of the drive where the index sensor is located. >>>A slideable pice could be built that contains both an index hole sensor >>>and a hole punch. A solenoid (or whatever) could move the index sensor >>>so that it could sense the hole in the diskette. If there were a stepper >>>motor used to rotate the disk, a Basic Stamp could rotate the diskette >>>until the hole is sensed. This would be the 0 degree position. The >>>slideable punch could then be positioned over the existing hole in the >>>diskette and the jacket. The stepper motor could then be rotated 18 >>>degrees and the first new hole punched. Next, the stepper motor could >>>rotate the diskette 36 degrees (repeating this ten more times) to punch >>>the remaining sector holes. A solenoid or something could be used to >>>operate the hole punch. VIOLA! A new hard sector diskette made from an >>>existing soft sector diskette. >>> >>>The difficult part would be to make the slideable index sensor / hole >>>punch device. It would have to be thick enough and with a slot into >>>which the diskette jacket could fit. >>> >>>Any new thoughts? >>> >>> >> >>Hi Carroll, >> >>I've had similar ideas - remove the drive motor (or just don't power it >>for direct-drive drive) and implement a stepper motor which gives accurate >>positioning of the media. >> >>You might be able to get away without having to move the sensor and hole >>punch if you make the punch retract far enough, and sense the hole at an >>angle - I think it would be simpler to just line up the hole before >>inserting the disk in the drive - with a stepper drive, the index hole will >>NOT move as you close the drive lever. Then it's just a matter of >>'x' steps (Index to first hole distance), Punch, 'y' steps (hole to hole >>distance), Punch, repeat until at last hole. >> >>I'd have built one by now, but I have not been able to fashion a decent >>punch yet. Any ideas? >> >>Regards, >>Dave >> >> >I measured the index hole and it appears to be .1" dia. I just found a >hole punch on ebay that is 2.5mm (probably close enough to work). >The reason I thought about making a moveable piece was to make the lower >part the die into which the punch would go. > >I'm going to tear apart some printers, drives, or whatever else I can >find that might have something usable. Of course the expensive way to go >would be to machine the slide assembly from a solid block of metal. > >I had a hard time going to sleep last night, thinking of about a >millions ways to do this. >CEW -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Jul 12 13:48:40 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:48:40 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute In-Reply-To: <200407121659.JAA06479@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200407121659.JAA06479@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <40F2DD08.8000508@sc.rr.com> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >Hi > I think you guys are getting a little carried away. >A simple manual system is all that is needed unless >you expect to go into production. One can make a simple >manual punch with a section of drill stock and something >as simple as a brass block to guide it. One can put some >holes on the pulley to use as detent stops to align the >punch on the disk. > When I find time, that is exactly what I intend to do. >I have all the parts and I'm just waiting for the time >to deal with it. This isn't a high tech problem. >Dwight > > > > >>From: "Carroll Waddell" >> >>Dave Dunfield wrote: >> >> >> >>>>Dave, >>>>I've been thinking about this. What I thought about was modifying an old >>>>diskette drive to punch the holes automatically. It would have to be >>>>modified to remove part of the drive where the index sensor is located. >>>>A slideable pice could be built that contains both an index hole sensor >>>>and a hole punch. A solenoid (or whatever) could move the index sensor >>>>so that it could sense the hole in the diskette. If there were a stepper >>>>motor used to rotate the disk, a Basic Stamp could rotate the diskette >>>>until the hole is sensed. This would be the 0 degree position. The >>>>slideable punch could then be positioned over the existing hole in the >>>>diskette and the jacket. The stepper motor could then be rotated 18 >>>>degrees and the first new hole punched. Next, the stepper motor could >>>>rotate the diskette 36 degrees (repeating this ten more times) to punch >>>>the remaining sector holes. A solenoid or something could be used to >>>>operate the hole punch. VIOLA! A new hard sector diskette made from an >>>>existing soft sector diskette. >>>> >>>>The difficult part would be to make the slideable index sensor / hole >>>>punch device. It would have to be thick enough and with a slot into >>>>which the diskette jacket could fit. >>>> >>>>Any new thoughts? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Hi Carroll, >>> >>>I've had similar ideas - remove the drive motor (or just don't power it >>>for direct-drive drive) and implement a stepper motor which gives accurate >>>positioning of the media. >>> >>>You might be able to get away without having to move the sensor and hole >>>punch if you make the punch retract far enough, and sense the hole at an >>>angle - I think it would be simpler to just line up the hole before >>>inserting the disk in the drive - with a stepper drive, the index hole will >>>NOT move as you close the drive lever. Then it's just a matter of >>>'x' steps (Index to first hole distance), Punch, 'y' steps (hole to hole >>>distance), Punch, repeat until at last hole. >>> >>>I'd have built one by now, but I have not been able to fashion a decent >>>punch yet. Any ideas? >>> >>>Regards, >>>Dave >>> >>> >>> >>> >>I measured the index hole and it appears to be .1" dia. I just found a >>hole punch on ebay that is 2.5mm (probably close enough to work). >>The reason I thought about making a moveable piece was to make the lower >>part the die into which the punch would go. >> >>I'm going to tear apart some printers, drives, or whatever else I can >>find that might have something usable. Of course the expensive way to go >>would be to machine the slide assembly from a solid block of metal. >> >>I had a hard time going to sleep last night, thinking of about a >>millions ways to do this. >>CEW >> >> > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > I do have serious mental problems. I just left the hardware store looking for something I could use. My name in a former life was probably Rube Goldberg. CEW From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 12 14:25:48 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute Message-ID: <200407121925.MAA06705@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Carroll Waddell" > >Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >>Hi >> I think you guys are getting a little carried away. >>A simple manual system is all that is needed unless >>you expect to go into production. One can make a simple >>manual punch with a section of drill stock and something >>as simple as a brass block to guide it. One can put some >>holes on the pulley to use as detent stops to align the >>punch on the disk. >> When I find time, that is exactly what I intend to do. >>I have all the parts and I'm just waiting for the time >>to deal with it. This isn't a high tech problem. >>Dwight >> >> >> >> >>>From: "Carroll Waddell" >>> >>>Dave Dunfield wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>>Dave, >>>>>I've been thinking about this. What I thought about was modifying an old >>>>>diskette drive to punch the holes automatically. It would have to be ---snip--- >> >> >I do have serious mental problems. I just left the hardware store >looking for something I could use. >My name in a former life was probably Rube Goldberg. >CEW Hi Carroll One could make the punch rod from either a #39 drill ( 0.0995" ) or a #38 drill ( 0.1015" ). Either of these is most likely within specs. Drill rod is best to use but just hacking up a drill would work as well. One could use a hard sectored disk to align the detents or a good index wheel. The small lathe I have has a thread cutting set. This can also be used to index as well with a little cleaverness. I expect to mount part of the punch on the body of the drive ( old SA400 ). The other part would mount on the moving arm of the disk door latch. I'd clamp it down and then drill the holes to align correctly. Drilling both at the same time would help the alignment. The bottom hole could actually be slightly larger. I'd suspect that one could drill this with a #38 and use the end of a #39 as the actual punch. One would need to sharpen and make the punch rod have a saddle like shape. The block on the body would need a relief hole on side. to let the pieces fall out. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Jul 12 15:19:49 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:19:49 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute In-Reply-To: <200407121925.MAA06705@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200407121925.MAA06705@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <40F2F265.3060805@sc.rr.com> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >>From: "Carroll Waddell" >> >>Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> >> >> >>>Hi >>>I think you guys are getting a little carried away. >>>A simple manual system is all that is needed unless >>>you expect to go into production. One can make a simple >>>manual punch with a section of drill stock and something >>>as simple as a brass block to guide it. One can put some >>>holes on the pulley to use as detent stops to align the >>>punch on the disk. >>>When I find time, that is exactly what I intend to do. >>>I have all the parts and I'm just waiting for the time >>>to deal with it. This isn't a high tech problem. >>>Dwight >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>From: "Carroll Waddell" >>>> >>>>Dave Dunfield wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>Dave, >>>>>>I've been thinking about this. What I thought about was modifying an old >>>>>>diskette drive to punch the holes automatically. It would have to be >>>>>> >>>>>> >---snip--- > > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>I do have serious mental problems. I just left the hardware store >>looking for something I could use. >>My name in a former life was probably Rube Goldberg. >>CEW >> >> > >Hi Carroll > One could make the punch rod from either a #39 drill ( 0.0995" ) or >a #38 drill ( 0.1015" ). Either of these is most likely within >specs. Drill rod is best to use but just hacking up a drill would >work as well. > One could use a hard sectored disk to align the detents or >a good index wheel. The small lathe I have has a thread cutting >set. This can also be used to index as well with a little >cleaverness. I expect to mount part of the punch on the body >of the drive ( old SA400 ). The other part would mount >on the moving arm of the disk door latch. I'd clamp it >down and then drill the holes to align correctly. Drilling >both at the same time would help the alignment. The bottom >hole could actually be slightly larger. I'd suspect that >one could drill this with a #38 and use the end of a #39 >as the actual punch. One would need to sharpen and make >the punch rod have a saddle like shape. > The block on the body would need a relief hole on side. >to let the pieces fall out. >Dwight > > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > Those are the 2 drills I was looking at. CEW From eric at rothfus.com Mon Jul 12 18:20:46 2004 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:20:46 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute In-Reply-To: <40F2F265.3060805@sc.rr.com> (message from Carroll Waddell on Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:19:49 -0400) References: <200407121925.MAA06705@clulw009.amd.com> <40F2F265.3060805@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <1089550239@rothfus.com> I am quite enjoying this exchange, so I thought I'd add a crazy idea. It would be fairly easy to create the "drill bit" from a hot piece of wire. You'd have to do quite a few experiments on a sacrificial floppy to see what voltage/ current on the wire made the best hole with the least amount of rolled-up plastic lip. The best wire shape would be an interesting experiment too. Eric -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Jul 12 17:42:18 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:42:18 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute In-Reply-To: <1089550239@rothfus.com> References: <200407121925.MAA06705@clulw009.amd.com> <40F2F265.3060805@sc.rr.com> <1089550239@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <40F313CA.8090000@sc.rr.com> Eric J. Rothfus wrote: >I am quite enjoying this exchange, so I thought I'd add a >crazy idea. It would be fairly easy to create the "drill >bit" from a hot piece of wire. You'd have to do quite a >few experiments on a sacrificial floppy to see what voltage/ >current on the wire made the best hole with the least >amount of rolled-up plastic lip. The best wire shape would >be an interesting experiment too. > >Eric > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > I went to Lowes today and picked up a piece of laminated shelf material. I am going to try to use this as a base. I want to get a diskette drive hub and clamp. I'm going to try to put that in the laminate base. The tricky part will be to drill the holes for the center of the drive hub and the hole. I am going to try to either buy or make a die that will be pressed into the base. Then a slidable piece on top will contain the photosensor and the hole punch. That's about as far as I've gotten yet. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From gfroberts at adelphia.net Mon Jul 12 21:27:58 2004 From: gfroberts at adelphia.net (Deb and Glenn Roberts) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:27:58 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute In-Reply-To: <40F313CA.8090000@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040713022803.JZEE13363.mta11.adelphia.net@VAIO> For the hole punch you might want to check out a craft or scrapbooking store. My wife does scrapbooking and I noticed they have a range of manual hole punch tools - I'm guessing one of them is around .1 ". these are sold for punching holes into paper and other materials for securing with small rivets but they'd work fine for your purpose. The way they work is there's a small rubber pad you put beneath the material then you hit the top of the punch with a hammer. Here's an example of one I found on the internet (this one's 1/8"): http://www.scrapbook101.com/productline/embellish/101setter.htm or here's another one with different sizes: http://www.yesterdayremembered.com/en-gb/dept_18.html - glenn > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Carroll > Waddell > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 6:42 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] hard sector substitute > > Eric J. Rothfus wrote: > > >I am quite enjoying this exchange, so I thought I'd add a > >crazy idea. It would be fairly easy to create the "drill > >bit" from a hot piece of wire. You'd have to do quite a > >few experiments on a sacrificial floppy to see what voltage/ > >current on the wire made the best hole with the least > >amount of rolled-up plastic lip. The best wire shape would > >be an interesting experiment too. > > > >Eric > > > >-- > >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > > > > > I went to Lowes today and picked up a piece of laminated shelf material. > I am going to try to use this as a base. I want to get a diskette drive > hub and clamp. I'm going to try to put that in the laminate base. The > tricky part will be to drill the holes for the center of the drive hub > and the hole. I am going to try to either buy or make a die that will be > pressed into the base. Then a slidable piece on top will contain the > photosensor and the hole punch. That's about as far as I've gotten yet. > Carroll > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 12 21:47:54 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute Message-ID: <200407130247.TAA08042@clulw009.amd.com> Hi These generally will not work because the punches are ground from the outside intead of the inside. They are intended to be used to punch against a hard surface and will normally distort the hole around the outside of the punched hole ( not a good thing ). It needs to be a clean punch without distorting the disk. Dwight >From: "Deb and Glenn Roberts" > >For the hole punch you might want to check out a craft or scrapbooking >store. My wife does scrapbooking and I noticed they have a range of manual >hole punch tools - I'm guessing one of them is around .1 ". these are sold >for punching holes into paper and other materials for securing with small >rivets but they'd work fine for your purpose. The way they work is there's a >small rubber pad you put beneath the material then you hit the top of the >punch with a hammer. > >Here's an example of one I found on the internet (this one's 1/8"): > >http://www.scrapbook101.com/productline/embellish/101setter.htm > >or here's another one with different sizes: > >http://www.yesterdayremembered.com/en-gb/dept_18.html > >- glenn > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Carroll >> Waddell >> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 6:42 PM >> To: sebhc at sebhc.org >> Subject: Re: [sebhc] hard sector substitute >> >> Eric J. Rothfus wrote: >> >> >I am quite enjoying this exchange, so I thought I'd add a >> >crazy idea. It would be fairly easy to create the "drill >> >bit" from a hot piece of wire. You'd have to do quite a >> >few experiments on a sacrificial floppy to see what voltage/ >> >current on the wire made the best hole with the least >> >amount of rolled-up plastic lip. The best wire shape would >> >be an interesting experiment too. >> > >> >Eric >> > >> >-- >> >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> > >> > >> > >> I went to Lowes today and picked up a piece of laminated shelf material. >> I am going to try to use this as a base. I want to get a diskette drive >> hub and clamp. I'm going to try to put that in the laminate base. The >> tricky part will be to drill the holes for the center of the drive hub >> and the hole. I am going to try to either buy or make a die that will be >> pressed into the base. Then a slidable piece on top will contain the >> photosensor and the hole punch. That's about as far as I've gotten yet. >> Carroll >> -- >> Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Jul 12 22:02:20 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:02:20 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute In-Reply-To: <200407130247.TAA08042@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200407130247.TAA08042@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <40F350BC.1080401@sc.rr.com> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >Hi > These generally will not work because the punches >are ground from the outside intead of the inside. >They are intended to be used to punch against a hard surface >and will normally distort the hole around the outside of the >punched hole ( not a good thing ). It needs to be a clean >punch without distorting the disk. >Dwight > > > > >>From: "Deb and Glenn Roberts" >> >>For the hole punch you might want to check out a craft or scrapbooking >>store. My wife does scrapbooking and I noticed they have a range of manual >>hole punch tools - I'm guessing one of them is around .1 ". these are sold >>for punching holes into paper and other materials for securing with small >>rivets but they'd work fine for your purpose. The way they work is there's a >>small rubber pad you put beneath the material then you hit the top of the >>punch with a hammer. >> >>Here's an example of one I found on the internet (this one's 1/8"): >> >>http://www.scrapbook101.com/productline/embellish/101setter.htm >> >>or here's another one with different sizes: >> >>http://www.yesterdayremembered.com/en-gb/dept_18.html >> >>- glenn >> >> >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Carroll >>>Waddell >>>Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 6:42 PM >>>To: sebhc at sebhc.org >>>Subject: Re: [sebhc] hard sector substitute >>> >>>Eric J. Rothfus wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>I am quite enjoying this exchange, so I thought I'd add a >>>>crazy idea. It would be fairly easy to create the "drill >>>>bit" from a hot piece of wire. You'd have to do quite a >>>>few experiments on a sacrificial floppy to see what voltage/ >>>>current on the wire made the best hole with the least >>>>amount of rolled-up plastic lip. The best wire shape would >>>>be an interesting experiment too. >>>> >>>>Eric >>>> >>>>-- >>>>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>I went to Lowes today and picked up a piece of laminated shelf material. >>>I am going to try to use this as a base. I want to get a diskette drive >>>hub and clamp. I'm going to try to put that in the laminate base. The >>>tricky part will be to drill the holes for the center of the drive hub >>>and the hole. I am going to try to either buy or make a die that will be >>>pressed into the base. Then a slidable piece on top will contain the >>>photosensor and the hole punch. That's about as far as I've gotten yet. >>>Carroll >>>-- >>>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >>> >>> >>-- >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> >> >> > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > I sent an email to a web site I found for a company that makes micro (tiny) punch and dies. We'll see what they say. Carroll From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Jul 13 14:31:07 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:31:07 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Screw Sizes Message-ID: <40F4387B.1010803@sc.rr.com> Does anyone know where I can find a guage to tell me what size METRIC LEFT HAND screw I have? I tore apart a diskette drive motor/hub/clamp assembly, and it had a left hand metric screw in it. CEW -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Thu Jul 15 15:55:03 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:55:03 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] PIP Message-ID: <40F6EF27.70702@sc.rr.com> Is anyone very familiar with the CP/M program called PIP? I have a question about it. CEW -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com Thu Jul 15 16:11:51 2004 From: RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com (West, Ronald S.) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:11:51 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] PIP Message-ID: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9D74@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Probably most of us. Fire away Ron > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Carroll Waddell > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 4:55 PM > To: sebhc > Subject: [sebhc] PIP > > > Is anyone very familiar with the CP/M program called PIP? > I have a question about it. > CEW > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Thu Jul 15 18:19:07 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:19:07 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] PIP In-Reply-To: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9D74@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> References: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9D74@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Message-ID: <40F710EB.8070303@sc.rr.com> West, Ronald S. wrote: >Probably most of us. Fire away > >Ron > > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of >>Carroll Waddell >>Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 4:55 PM >>To: sebhc >>Subject: [sebhc] PIP >> >> >>Is anyone very familiar with the CP/M program called PIP? >>I have a question about it. >>CEW >>-- >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> >> >> >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > I have my old CP/M programs stored as images on a PC. These are binary (object) images. I'm trying to use PIP to create a file on my H8 from the PC. The only thing I have been able to transfer so far are ASCII files. When I try to transfer a COM file (first is MBASIC.COM) it stops at the first Control Z (026). According to my CP/M book, you can specify an input as an object file [O]. The book I have says that PIP also monitors the keyboard so that you can end the transfer by pressing Ctrl Z, but PIP is ignoring the keyboard. The book also says that you can tell PIP to quit copying when it encounters a certain string which you can specify followed by Ctrl Z. I haven't been able to make that work either. In summary, I'm simply trying to transfer all my old CP/M programs from the hard drive on my PC to a 10 hard sector diskette. So far, no joy. Carroll From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jul 15 18:25:45 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] PIP Message-ID: <200407152325.QAA10711@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Carroll Waddell" >> >I have my old CP/M programs stored as images on a PC. These are binary >(object) images. I'm trying to use PIP to create a file on my H8 from >the PC. The only thing I have been able to transfer so far are ASCII >files. When I try to transfer a COM file (first is MBASIC.COM) it stops >at the first Control Z (026). According to my CP/M book, you can >specify an input as an object file [O]. The book I have says that PIP >also monitors the keyboard so that you can end the transfer by pressing >Ctrl Z, but PIP is ignoring the keyboard. The book also says that you >can tell PIP to quit copying when it encounters a certain string which >you can specify followed by Ctrl Z. I haven't been able to make that >work either. In summary, I'm simply trying to transfer all my old CP/M >programs from the hard drive on my PC to a 10 hard sector diskette. So >far, no joy. >Carroll Hi Carroll My understanding is that there is no way to read an input as binary into a file. You can write binary to a file. You can convert the file to intel hex and then use something like ddt, load or some other conversion program and then save to disk. There is some utility, somewhere that will do this as well. Of course, if my image writing tool were working for you, you could use my WRCPM to write the data to an image and then transfer it to the H8. I still haven't found time to look at the image you sent me to see if you have an issue reading or writing. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Jul 15 18:38:58 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:38:58 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [sebhc] PIP Message-ID: <5468723.1089934739398.JavaMail.root@statler.psp.pas.earthlink.net> as Dwight said, you can not transfer binary with PIP. Here is a link to utility programs that run in DOS. The one of interest is a bin2hex.exe that converts a COM file into a text Intel HEX file. You can use PIP to capture the console and write out to a file (PIP file.hex=con:). You can use LOAD.COM on the cp/m side to convert it back to .com. This should work... unless I managed to get something wrong... http://www.danbbs.dk/~rmadrm/utility.htm best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Carroll Waddell Sent: Jul 15, 2004 7:19 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] PIP West, Ronald S. wrote: >Probably most of us. Fire away > >Ron > > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of >>Carroll Waddell >>Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 4:55 PM >>To: sebhc >>Subject: [sebhc] PIP >> >> >>Is anyone very familiar with the CP/M program called PIP? >>I have a question about it. >>CEW >>-- >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> >> > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > I have my old CP/M programs stored as images on a PC. These are binary (object) images. I'm trying to use PIP to create a file on my H8 from the PC. The only thing I have been able to transfer so far are ASCII files. When I try to transfer a COM file (first is MBASIC.COM) it stops at the first Control Z (026). According to my CP/M book, you can specify an input as an object file [O]. The book I have says that PIP also monitors the keyboard so that you can end the transfer by pressing Ctrl Z, but PIP is ignoring the keyboard. The book also says that you can tell PIP to quit copying when it encounters a certain string which you can specify followed by Ctrl Z. I haven't been able to make that work either. In summary, I'm simply trying to transfer all my old CP/M programs from the hard drive on my PC to a 10 hard sector diskette. So far, no joy. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jul 15 18:40:03 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] PIP Message-ID: <200407152340.QAA10718@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Another thought. If you have soemthing like XTree on your PC, you can edit the binary file to remove the 026 and keep track of where they are. Once you get it to the H8, use DDT to re-edit it and save to a file. I'm not sure how many 026's you have in the file. Dwight >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > >>From: "Carroll Waddell" >>> >>I have my old CP/M programs stored as images on a PC. These are binary >>(object) images. I'm trying to use PIP to create a file on my H8 from >>the PC. The only thing I have been able to transfer so far are ASCII >>files. When I try to transfer a COM file (first is MBASIC.COM) it stops >>at the first Control Z (026). According to my CP/M book, you can >>specify an input as an object file [O]. The book I have says that PIP >>also monitors the keyboard so that you can end the transfer by pressing >>Ctrl Z, but PIP is ignoring the keyboard. The book also says that you >>can tell PIP to quit copying when it encounters a certain string which >>you can specify followed by Ctrl Z. I haven't been able to make that >>work either. In summary, I'm simply trying to transfer all my old CP/M >>programs from the hard drive on my PC to a 10 hard sector diskette. So >>far, no joy. >>Carroll > >Hi Carroll > My understanding is that there is no way to read an input as >binary into a file. You can write binary to a file. > You can convert the file to intel hex and then use something >like ddt, load or some other conversion program and then save to disk. > There is some utility, somewhere that will do this as well. > Of course, if my image writing tool were working for you, >you could use my WRCPM to write the data to an image and then >transfer it to the H8. I still haven't found time to look at >the image you sent me to see if you have an issue reading or >writing. >Dwight > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From garlangr at verizon.net Thu Jul 15 21:51:37 2004 From: garlangr at verizon.net (Mark Garlanger) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:51:37 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] PIP References: <200407152340.QAA10718@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <003101c46adf$d0705310$a301010a@BUSTER> Assuming random distribution, you would be looking at 40 locations per 10k of code - seems like a lot to keep track of. It may be even more command since the opcode for that byte is LDAX D It seems like the easiest would be to get some type of modem program that support X-Modem transfers. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 6:40 PM Subject: Re: [sebhc] PIP > Hi > Another thought. If you have soemthing like XTree > on your PC, you can edit the binary file to remove > the 026 and keep track of where they are. > Once you get it to the H8, use DDT to re-edit it > and save to a file. I'm not sure how many 026's > you have in the file. > Dwight > > > >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > > > >>From: "Carroll Waddell" > >>> > >>I have my old CP/M programs stored as images on a PC. These are binary > >>(object) images. I'm trying to use PIP to create a file on my H8 from > >>the PC. The only thing I have been able to transfer so far are ASCII > >>files. When I try to transfer a COM file (first is MBASIC.COM) it stops > >>at the first Control Z (026). According to my CP/M book, you can > >>specify an input as an object file [O]. The book I have says that PIP > >>also monitors the keyboard so that you can end the transfer by pressing > >>Ctrl Z, but PIP is ignoring the keyboard. The book also says that you > >>can tell PIP to quit copying when it encounters a certain string which > >>you can specify followed by Ctrl Z. I haven't been able to make that > >>work either. In summary, I'm simply trying to transfer all my old CP/M > >>programs from the hard drive on my PC to a 10 hard sector diskette. So > >>far, no joy. > >>Carroll > > > >Hi Carroll > > My understanding is that there is no way to read an input as > >binary into a file. You can write binary to a file. > > You can convert the file to intel hex and then use something > >like ddt, load or some other conversion program and then save to disk. > > There is some utility, somewhere that will do this as well. > > Of course, if my image writing tool were working for you, > >you could use my WRCPM to write the data to an image and then > >transfer it to the H8. I still haven't found time to look at > >the image you sent me to see if you have an issue reading or > >writing. > >Dwight > > > > > >-- > >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Jul 16 05:02:16 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 03:02:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] PIP In-Reply-To: <003101c46adf$d0705310$a301010a@BUSTER> Message-ID: <20040716100216.45737.qmail@web53707.mail.yahoo.com> For building an H8/89 version of modem7, start here: http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/cdrom/CPM/MODEMS/MODEM7/M7H8-2-1.ASM Jack --- Mark Garlanger wrote: > Assuming random distribution, you would be looking > at 40 locations per 10k > of > code - seems like a lot to keep track of. > It may be even more command since the opcode for > that byte > is LDAX D > > It seems like the easiest would be to get some type > of modem program that > support X-Modem transfers. > > Mark > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 6:40 PM > Subject: Re: [sebhc] PIP > > > > Hi > > Another thought. If you have soemthing like XTree > > on your PC, you can edit the binary file to remove > > the 026 and keep track of where they are. > > Once you get it to the H8, use DDT to re-edit it > > and save to a file. I'm not sure how many 026's > > you have in the file. > > Dwight > > > > > > >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > > > > > >>From: "Carroll Waddell" > > > >>> > > >>I have my old CP/M programs stored as images on > a PC. These are binary > > >>(object) images. I'm trying to use PIP to create > a file on my H8 from > > >>the PC. The only thing I have been able to > transfer so far are ASCII > > >>files. When I try to transfer a COM file (first > is MBASIC.COM) it stops > > >>at the first Control Z (026). According to my > CP/M book, you can > > >>specify an input as an object file [O]. The > book I have says that PIP > > >>also monitors the keyboard so that you can end > the transfer by pressing > > >>Ctrl Z, but PIP is ignoring the keyboard. The > book also says that you > > >>can tell PIP to quit copying when it encounters > a certain string which > > >>you can specify followed by Ctrl Z. I haven't > been able to make that > > >>work either. In summary, I'm simply trying to > transfer all my old CP/M > > >>programs from the hard drive on my PC to a 10 > hard sector diskette. So > > >>far, no joy. > > >>Carroll > > > > > >Hi Carroll > > > My understanding is that there is no way to read > an input as > > >binary into a file. You can write binary to a > file. > > > You can convert the file to intel hex and then > use something > > >like ddt, load or some other conversion program > and then save to disk. > > > There is some utility, somewhere that will do > this as well. > > > Of course, if my image writing tool were working > for you, > > >you could use my WRCPM to write the data to an > image and then > > >transfer it to the H8. I still haven't found time > to look at > > >the image you sent me to see if you have an issue > reading or > > >writing. > > >Dwight > > > > > > > > >-- > > >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > sebhc-request at sebhc.org. > > > > > > > > > -- > > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > sebhc-request at sebhc.org. > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > sebhc-request at sebhc.org. > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Fri Jul 16 09:45:25 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:45:25 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] BASIC-80 Message-ID: <40F7EA05.1080707@sc.rr.com> Does anyone in the group have Microsoft Basic-80 for CP/M on hard sector diskettes? The only copy I have is now on my PC, and I'm having trouble getting it into the H8. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Fri Jul 16 14:04:43 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:04:43 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] PIP References: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9D74@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> <40F710EB.8070303@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <40F826CB.14BC@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > I'm trying to use PIP to create a file on my H8 from the PC. The > only thing I have been able to transfer so far are ASCII files. > When I try to transfer a COM file (first is MBASIC.COM) it stops > at the first Control Z (026). According to my CP/M book, you can > specify an input as an object file [O]. The [O] was only needed with the PIP that came with CP/M version 1.x. Later versions of PIP automatically treat the file as binary if its name ends in .COM. Some CP/M emulators on the PC rename CP/M .COM files to something else (like .CPM) so they won't be confused with DOS .COM files. Trying to use PIP to transfer such a file will make it misinterpret it as an ASCII file. In this case the [O] option should work. On the CP/M computer side of things, what usually happens is that the BIOS serial port drivers are forcing 7-bit transfers; it's not PIP that is doing it. Heath CP/M has a bunch of serial drivers that you can select with STAT. I know for sure that the TTY drivers *do* send the full 8 bits on both send and receive; so all you need to do in PIP is to use the [O] option so PIP won't use control-Z to mark the end of a file. One more trick that comes in handy. PIP has a 256-byte "hole" at the beginning where you can insert your own special input or output driver. I have a version with a 'help' file inserted into this hole, and another with a direct serial port driver that uses the handshaking lines, so you can PIP large files serially without missing any characters. > The book I have says that PIP also monitors the keyboard so that > you can end the transfer by pressing Ctrl Z, but PIP is ignoring > the keyboard. Hmm... it works on mine. > The book also says that you can tell PIP to quit copying when it > encounters a certain string which you can specify followed by > Ctrl Z. I haven't been able to make that work either. That also works on mine. I suspect that you somehow got an old version of PIP. PIP is an amazingly versatile program. I have used it many times to transfer files between computers. If you are still having problems, one trick is to use the LOAD and UNLOAD programs. UNLOAD converts a binary file (MBASIC.COM) into a .HEX file. You can then use PIP to transfer it (all at once, or in pieces) to the other computer. Then use LOAD to convert the .HEX file(s) back to .COM files. That always works, even with paths that only transfer 7 bits. And, .HEX includes error checking, so you will detect any errors that occur. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From wm65805 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 16 14:52:45 2004 From: wm65805 at hotmail.com (Bill malcolm) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:52:45 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Needed Y-Modem for Hdos Message-ID: Any interest for a Y-Modem program ? bill .. >From: Jack Rubin >Reply-To: sebhc at sebhc.org >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Subject: Re: [sebhc] PIP >Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 03:02:16 -0700 (PDT) > >For building an H8/89 version of modem7, start here: >http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/cdrom/CPM/MODEMS/MODEM7/M7H8-2-1.ASM > >Jack > >--- Mark Garlanger wrote: > > Assuming random distribution, you would be looking > > at 40 locations per 10k > > of > > code - seems like a lot to keep track of. > > It may be even more command since the opcode for > > that byte > > is LDAX D > > > > It seems like the easiest would be to get some type > > of modem program that > > support X-Modem transfers. > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 6:40 PM > > Subject: Re: [sebhc] PIP > > > > > > > Hi > > > Another thought. If you have soemthing like XTree > > > on your PC, you can edit the binary file to remove > > > the 026 and keep track of where they are. > > > Once you get it to the H8, use DDT to re-edit it > > > and save to a file. I'm not sure how many 026's > > > you have in the file. > > > Dwight > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > > > > > > > >>From: "Carroll Waddell" > > > > > >>> > > > >>I have my old CP/M programs stored as images on > > a PC. These are binary > > > >>(object) images. I'm trying to use PIP to create > > a file on my H8 from > > > >>the PC. The only thing I have been able to > > transfer so far are ASCII > > > >>files. When I try to transfer a COM file (first > > is MBASIC.COM) it stops > > > >>at the first Control Z (026). According to my > > CP/M book, you can > > > >>specify an input as an object file [O]. The > > book I have says that PIP > > > >>also monitors the keyboard so that you can end > > the transfer by pressing > > > >>Ctrl Z, but PIP is ignoring the keyboard. The > > book also says that you > > > >>can tell PIP to quit copying when it encounters > > a certain string which > > > >>you can specify followed by Ctrl Z. I haven't > > been able to make that > > > >>work either. In summary, I'm simply trying to > > transfer all my old CP/M > > > >>programs from the hard drive on my PC to a 10 > > hard sector diskette. So > > > >>far, no joy. > > > >>Carroll > > > > > > > >Hi Carroll > > > > My understanding is that there is no way to read > > an input as > > > >binary into a file. You can write binary to a > > file. > > > > You can convert the file to intel hex and then > > use something > > > >like ddt, load or some other conversion program > > and then save to disk. > > > > There is some utility, somewhere that will do > > this as well. > > > > Of course, if my image writing tool were working > > for you, > > > >you could use my WRCPM to write the data to an > > image and then > > > >transfer it to the H8. I still haven't found time > > to look at > > > >the image you sent me to see if you have an issue > > reading or > > > >writing. > > > >Dwight > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > sebhc-request at sebhc.org. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > sebhc-request at sebhc.org. > > > > -- > > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > sebhc-request at sebhc.org. > > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List _________________________________________________________________ Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Fri Jul 16 23:07:58 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:07:58 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] BASIC-80 References: <40F7EA05.1080707@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <40F8A61E.482A@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > Does anyone in the group have Microsoft Basic-80 for CP/M on hard > sector diskettes? Yes, I do. Microsoft MBASIC.COM rev. 5.21 was the latest version for CP/M but there are lots of others. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Fri Jul 16 22:05:16 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:05:16 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] BASIC-80 In-Reply-To: <40F8A61E.482A@earthlink.net> References: <40F7EA05.1080707@sc.rr.com> <40F8A61E.482A@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40F8976C.3090502@sc.rr.com> Lee Hart wrote: >Carroll Waddell wrote: > > >>Does anyone in the group have Microsoft Basic-80 for CP/M on hard >>sector diskettes? >> >> > >Yes, I do. Microsoft MBASIC.COM rev. 5.21 was the latest version for >CP/M but there are lots of others. > > I hate to ask, but could I get a copy on a hard sector diskette? CEW From rsvoboda at Covington.k12.ky.us Mon Jul 19 17:20:31 2004 From: rsvoboda at Covington.k12.ky.us (Rsvoboda) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:20:31 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Re: Message-ID: An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: warning1.txt URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Jul 20 17:25:19 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:25:19 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] It's Alive! Message-ID: <40FD9BCF.802@sc.rr.com> FINALLY. I have my old H8 up and running with 64K, tape system capable, a 3 drive H17 disk system, H19 terminal (still working on the PC H19 emulation), printer emulation on a PC, and running both CP/M and HDOS. Now, if I could just find something useful to do with it. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Jul 21 12:50:25 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] It's Alive! In-Reply-To: <40FD9BCF.802@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040721175025.56937.qmail@web53710.mail.yahoo.com> Carroll, if you could do something _useful_ with the system, you'd be back at work instead of enjoying your hobby time! ;>) Jack --- Carroll Waddell wrote: > FINALLY. I have my old H8 up and running with 64K, > tape system capable, > a 3 drive H17 disk system, H19 terminal (still > working on the PC H19 > emulation), printer emulation on a PC, and running > both CP/M and HDOS. > > Now, if I could just find something useful to do > with it. > Carroll > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > sebhc-request at sebhc.org. > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Wed Jul 21 13:36:10 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:36:10 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] It's Alive! In-Reply-To: <20040721175025.56937.qmail@web53710.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040721175025.56937.qmail@web53710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40FEB79A.9050803@sc.rr.com> GOOD Point! CEW Jack Rubin wrote: >Carroll, if you could do something _useful_ with the >system, you'd be back at work instead of enjoying your >hobby time! ;>) > >Jack > >--- Carroll Waddell wrote: > > >>FINALLY. I have my old H8 up and running with 64K, >>tape system capable, >>a 3 drive H17 disk system, H19 terminal (still >>working on the PC H19 >>emulation), printer emulation on a PC, and running >>both CP/M and HDOS. >> >>Now, if I could just find something useful to do >>with it. >>Carroll >>-- >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >>sebhc-request at sebhc.org. >> >> >> > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > From RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com Thu Jul 22 09:13:34 2004 From: RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com (West, Ronald S.) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:13:34 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H-8-IDE board Message-ID: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9D98@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Finally got the hardware design for the H-8-IDE board completed. I am going to start bread boarding the design (hopefully this weekend). I will find out in short order any shortcomings in it soon as I get the breadboard done. Thought I might make the schematic available on the SEBHC website for anyone else who wanted to play around with this but cannot get my schematic capture program to save in any other but native format. I think I can print it out (B size paper) and then scan it in and create a gif file that way. Will work on that and post it soon as possible. The IDE board is hard wired on base address 200Q and uses all 8 address from 200Q to 207Q. The upper data byte register is at address 2100. These addresses are in reserved I/O space just above the primary H17 device addresses. I found a port assignments chart in appendix 1-C of the HDOS 3.0 system configuration book on the SEBHC website. Soon as I get it built will write a small program to write test data to the drive. After verifying the board works (reliably), will write a device driver for it. If all goes well the drive should be able to store 65535 x 512 = 33,553,920 or 33.5 mega-bytes. Due to the way HDOS 2.0 (don't know if 3.0 is different) allocates files it will only store 400 files per disk (including system and directory files). The neat thing is we may be able to create SY0 through SY9 (10) disks on one hard drive. That will make up for the limited number of files. The device driver will do the mapping between drives. Due to memory restrictions I think HDOS only allows 3 or 4 drives to be mounted at any one time so some creative drive management may be in order. Ron -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From waltm22 at comcast.net Thu Jul 22 10:27:14 2004 From: waltm22 at comcast.net (Walter Moore) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:27:14 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] H-8-IDE board In-Reply-To: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9D98@mcl-its-exs03.mai l.saic.com> References: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9D98@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040722074513.02228d70@mail.comcast.net> >Soon as I get it built will write a small program to write test data to the >drive. After verifying the board works (reliably), will write a device >driver for it. If all goes well the drive should be able to store 65535 x >512 = 33,553,920 or 33.5 mega-bytes. Due to the way HDOS 2.0 (don't know if >3.0 is different) allocates files it will only store 400 files per disk >(including system and directory files). The neat thing is we may be able to >create SY0 through SY9 (10) disks on one hard drive. That will make up for >the limited number of files. The device driver will do the mapping between >drives. Due to memory restrictions I think HDOS only allows 3 or 4 drives to >be mounted at any one time so some creative drive management may be in >order. Are you certain about the 400 files? I haven't given the source code a good look in a long time, but I thought that the limit was about 250 files. I seem to recall that the allocation tables were all 8-bit, and 0xFF and 0xFE were taken. You might only get 16M of file space. The H-47 driver had to do some work to make 128 bytes sectors work under HDOS - HDOS really wanted 256 byte sectors. The file system tracked group (8-bit number) and sector within group (8-bit). Everything was assumed to be 256 bytes. (Remember that Reagan was just starting his first term when I really last looked at this!) With the size of current drives and slowness of the H8 and small memory, I would consider throwing away half of every sector so that I didn't get into read/modify/write for short sectors and having to allocate extra memory for the RMW. This is just a thought. The performance trade-off might not be worth it. (Can you low-level format an IDE drive for 256 byte sectors?) I also believe that 8 units is the max (bit flags in a byte are used). I don't recall any restriction on number of mounted drives. The buffers and allocation tables were dynamically allocated, but then I never had a chance to use a device with 8 units so maybe there is a limit I missed. I wanted to write a driver where you could change the number of units, but ended up deciding that this could not be easily done. The number of units and capabilities mask were part of the device driver preamble which was not written back out to disk. Darn. I guess this is why they never fully implemented it for the H-47 driver. A good idea might be to use the set command to map unit number to "partition" and have a couple of the unit numbers be set for read-only. This mapping might only apply on boot, I don't know if they can be dynamically changed for a directory device. I had a friend who added a Corvus 10M hard drive to his H8 back around '82. It screamed. I believe he made each unit 2M. It was a lot faster under HDOS than CP/M because CP/M always wanted to check to see if the disk had been swapped while HDOS relied on the "Mount" command (he wasn't a CP/M expert and my have missed something that would have allowed it to be faster). Anyway, if I can get back up and running sometime soon, I'd be willing to help out with the device driver. ..walt -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Jul 22 11:16:59 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H-8-IDE board - HDOS 3.0 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040722074513.02228d70@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20040722161659.62963.qmail@web53709.mail.yahoo.com> Don't forget that we have full HDOS 2.0 and 3.0 source available. 3.0 is in the archives and I'll be glad to scan and post any part of 2.0 on an as-needed basis since the full listing is a foot-high printout. I also have HDOS 3.0.x on disk and hope to have images available shortly (??). In the meantime, I could provide copies on disk for development purposes. Walt - I just got a couple H47 and H67 subsystems; hopefully I'll have something running in the near future. At least the units power up without smoking and there isn't too much rodent residue involved. But, man, those things are heavy! Jack --- Walter Moore wrote: > > >Soon as I get it built will write a small program > to write test data to the > >drive. After verifying the board works (reliably), > will write a device > >driver for it. If all goes well the drive should be > able to store 65535 x > >512 = 33,553,920 or 33.5 mega-bytes. Due to the way > HDOS 2.0 (don't know if > >3.0 is different) allocates files it will only > store 400 files per disk > >(including system and directory files). The neat > thing is we may be able to > >create SY0 through SY9 (10) disks on one hard > drive. That will make up for > >the limited number of files. The device driver will > do the mapping between > >drives. Due to memory restrictions I think HDOS > only allows 3 or 4 drives to > >be mounted at any one time so some creative drive > management may be in > >order. > > Are you certain about the 400 files? I haven't > given the source code a > good look in a long time, but I thought that the > limit was about 250 > files. I seem to recall that the allocation tables > were all 8-bit, and > 0xFF and 0xFE were taken. > > You might only get 16M of file space. The H-47 > driver had to do some work > to make 128 bytes sectors work under HDOS - HDOS > really wanted 256 byte > sectors. The file system tracked group (8-bit > number) and sector within > group (8-bit). Everything was assumed to be 256 > bytes. (Remember that > Reagan was just starting his first term when I > really last looked at this!) > > With the size of current drives and slowness of the > H8 and small memory, I > would consider throwing away half of every sector so > that I didn't get into > read/modify/write for short sectors and having to > allocate extra memory for > the RMW. This is just a thought. The performance > trade-off might not be > worth it. (Can you low-level format an IDE drive > for 256 byte sectors?) > > I also believe that 8 units is the max (bit flags in > a byte are used). I > don't recall any restriction on number of mounted > drives. The buffers and > allocation tables were dynamically allocated, but > then I never had a chance > to use a device with 8 units so maybe there is a > limit I missed. > > I wanted to write a driver where you could change > the number of units, but > ended up deciding that this could not be easily > done. The number of units > and capabilities mask were part of the device driver > preamble which was not > written back out to disk. Darn. I guess this is > why they never fully > implemented it for the H-47 driver. A good idea > might be to use the set > command to map unit number to "partition" and have a > couple of the unit > numbers be set for read-only. > This mapping might only apply on boot, I don't know > if they can be > dynamically changed for a directory device. > > I had a friend who added a Corvus 10M hard drive to > his H8 back around > '82. It screamed. I believe he made each unit 2M. > It was a lot faster > under HDOS than CP/M because CP/M always wanted to > check to see if the disk > had been swapped while HDOS relied on the "Mount" > command (he wasn't a CP/M > expert and my have missed something that would have > allowed it to be faster). > > Anyway, if I can get back up and running sometime > soon, I'd be willing to > help out with the device driver. > > ..walt > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > sebhc-request at sebhc.org. > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 22 12:25:51 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:25:51 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] H-8-IDE board Message-ID: >>Due to the way HDOS 2.0 (don't know if >>3.0 is different) allocates files it will only store 400 files per disk >>(including system and directory files). > >Are you certain about the 400 files? I haven't given the source code a >good look in a long time, but I thought that the limit was about 250 files. You can't have more files than allocation groups, and the group table index for a floppy is one byte. H-17 floppies had 200 allocation groups, but I've made fantasy floppies for the simulator with 250. The total capacity has to be a common multiple of both the allocation size and the number of sectors per track. I don't recall the H-67 layout though, perhaps it got around that limitation. You'd probably want to set up your driver to make your IDE drive look like an H-67 to the system rather than a bunch of floppies anyway. Cheers, - Steven _________________________________________________________________ Overwhelmed by debt? Find out how to ?Dig Yourself Out of Debt? from MSN Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0407debt.armx -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From wm65805 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 22 13:41:45 2004 From: wm65805 at hotmail.com (Bill malcolm) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:41:45 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H-8-IDE board - HDOS 3.0 Message-ID: Sounds GREAT. RE: CP/M device parms can be set to NOT check the disk -- called I think, directory check, this is normaly used for hard disks & ram disks. bill. >From: Jack Rubin >Reply-To: sebhc at sebhc.org >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Subject: Re: [sebhc] H-8-IDE board - HDOS 3.0 >Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:16:59 -0700 (PDT) > >Don't forget that we have full HDOS 2.0 and 3.0 source >available. 3.0 is in the archives and I'll be glad to >scan and post any part of 2.0 on an as-needed basis >since the full listing is a foot-high printout. I also >have HDOS 3.0.x on disk and hope to have images >available shortly (??). In the meantime, I could >provide copies on disk for development purposes. > >Walt - I just got a couple H47 and H67 subsystems; >hopefully I'll have something running in the near >future. At least the units power up without smoking >and there isn't too much rodent residue involved. But, >man, those things are heavy! > >Jack > >--- Walter Moore wrote: > > > > >Soon as I get it built will write a small program > > to write test data to the > > >drive. After verifying the board works (reliably), > > will write a device > > >driver for it. If all goes well the drive should be > > able to store 65535 x > > >512 = 33,553,920 or 33.5 mega-bytes. Due to the way > > HDOS 2.0 (don't know if > > >3.0 is different) allocates files it will only > > store 400 files per disk > > >(including system and directory files). The neat > > thing is we may be able to > > >create SY0 through SY9 (10) disks on one hard > > drive. That will make up for > > >the limited number of files. The device driver will > > do the mapping between > > >drives. Due to memory restrictions I think HDOS > > only allows 3 or 4 drives to > > >be mounted at any one time so some creative drive > > management may be in > > >order. > > > > Are you certain about the 400 files? I haven't > > given the source code a > > good look in a long time, but I thought that the > > limit was about 250 > > files. I seem to recall that the allocation tables > > were all 8-bit, and > > 0xFF and 0xFE were taken. > > > > You might only get 16M of file space. The H-47 > > driver had to do some work > > to make 128 bytes sectors work under HDOS - HDOS > > really wanted 256 byte > > sectors. The file system tracked group (8-bit > > number) and sector within > > group (8-bit). Everything was assumed to be 256 > > bytes. (Remember that > > Reagan was just starting his first term when I > > really last looked at this!) > > > > With the size of current drives and slowness of the > > H8 and small memory, I > > would consider throwing away half of every sector so > > that I didn't get into > > read/modify/write for short sectors and having to > > allocate extra memory for > > the RMW. This is just a thought. The performance > > trade-off might not be > > worth it. (Can you low-level format an IDE drive > > for 256 byte sectors?) > > > > I also believe that 8 units is the max (bit flags in > > a byte are used). I > > don't recall any restriction on number of mounted > > drives. The buffers and > > allocation tables were dynamically allocated, but > > then I never had a chance > > to use a device with 8 units so maybe there is a > > limit I missed. > > > > I wanted to write a driver where you could change > > the number of units, but > > ended up deciding that this could not be easily > > done. The number of units > > and capabilities mask were part of the device driver > > preamble which was not > > written back out to disk. Darn. I guess this is > > why they never fully > > implemented it for the H-47 driver. A good idea > > might be to use the set > > command to map unit number to "partition" and have a > > couple of the unit > > numbers be set for read-only. > > This mapping might only apply on boot, I don't know > > if they can be > > dynamically changed for a directory device. > > > > I had a friend who added a Corvus 10M hard drive to > > his H8 back around > > '82. It screamed. I believe he made each unit 2M. > > It was a lot faster > > under HDOS than CP/M because CP/M always wanted to > > check to see if the disk > > had been swapped while HDOS relied on the "Mount" > > command (he wasn't a CP/M > > expert and my have missed something that would have > > allowed it to be faster). > > > > Anyway, if I can get back up and running sometime > > soon, I'd be willing to > > help out with the device driver. > > > > ..walt > > > > > > -- > > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > sebhc-request at sebhc.org. > > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List _________________________________________________________________ Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com Thu Jul 22 13:59:48 2004 From: RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com (West, Ronald S.) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:59:48 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H-8-IDE board Message-ID: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9D9B@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Thanks for all the good advice folks. If the group table is using bytes for group numbers then sounds like the limit will be the 250 value mentioned. Will see when I get into the device driver writing. Hmmm.... May have to take Walt up on his offer . Making it look like an H67 might be a good idea also. Don't know much about the 67, will have to look at the manual and device drivers. Btw - I have a set of hard sector floppies purported to contain most of the source code for HDOS 2.0. I forget who gave them to me... It was a long time ago. If I can get them to read will post them to the web site. Wonder if some of these issues were taken up in 3.0? Does anyone know if they addressed the affinity for 256 bytes and the fact that HDOS uses a 16 bit word to address sectors, which is where I got the 65535 limit. Walt (I think) said something about not using all 512 bytes in a sector. That might be a good idea too. All depends on what I find when I start issuing commands to this thing. Even with all the above limitations we should have a machine that really screams. Being a system administrator type I don't get to use my training in hardware design I spent so much time learning. Scary, but this is a lot of fun! Keep the good suggestions coming. Ron > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Steven Parker > Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 1:26 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] H-8-IDE board > > > >>Due to the way HDOS 2.0 (don't know if > >>3.0 is different) allocates files it will only store 400 files per > >>disk (including system and directory files). > > > >Are you certain about the 400 files? I haven't given the > source code a > >good look in a long time, but I thought that the limit was > about 250 files. > > You can't have more files than allocation groups, and the > group table index > for a floppy is one byte. H-17 floppies had 200 allocation > groups, but I've > made fantasy floppies for the simulator with 250. The total > capacity has to > be a common multiple of both the allocation size and the > number of sectors > per track. > > I don't recall the H-67 layout though, perhaps it got around that > limitation. You'd probably want to set up your driver to > make your IDE > drive look like an H-67 to the system rather than a bunch of floppies > anyway. > > Cheers, > > - Steven > > _________________________________________________________________ > Overwhelmed by debt? Find out how to 'Dig Yourself Out of > Debt' from MSN > Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0407debt.armx > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From waltm22 at comcast.net Thu Jul 22 17:13:28 2004 From: waltm22 at comcast.net (Walter Moore) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:13:28 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] H-8-IDE board - HDOS 3.0 In-Reply-To: <20040722161659.62963.qmail@web53709.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040722074513.02228d70@mail.comcast.net> <20040722161659.62963.qmail@web53709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040722151246.0222fa68@mail.comcast.net> At Thursday 09:16 AM 7/22/2004, you wrote: >Don't forget that we have full HDOS 2.0 and 3.0 source >available. 3.0 is in the archives and I'll be glad to >scan and post any part of 2.0 on an as-needed basis >since the full listing is a foot-high printout. I also >have HDOS 3.0.x on disk and hope to have images >available shortly (??). In the meantime, I could >provide copies on disk for development purposes. > >Walt - I just got a couple H47 and H67 subsystems; >hopefully I'll have something running in the near >future. At least the units power up without smoking >and there isn't too much rodent residue involved. But, >man, those things are heavy! > >Jack How do you come across those things? ..walt -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Jul 22 19:29:11 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:29:11 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H-8-IDE board - HDOS 3.0 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040722151246.0222fa68@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <000701c4704c$139e3fa0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> > >Walt - I just got a couple H47 and H67 subsystems; > >hopefully I'll have something running in the near > >future. At least the units power up without smoking > >and there isn't too much rodent residue involved. But, > >man, those things are heavy! > > > >Jack > > How do you come across those things? > > ..walt > Mostly persistence and dumb luck - found a PDP 11/73 on Tuesday when I stopped for lunch and got to talking with the sub shop owner who used to run a time-sharing business. The H47 and H67 systems were used by a local motorcycle shop dealer who had a Corvus-based network in the early '80s. Jack -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Sat Jul 24 11:58:09 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:58:09 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] BASIC-80 References: <40F7EA05.1080707@sc.rr.com> <40F8A61E.482A@earthlink.net> <40F8976C.3090502@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <41029521.605E@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > > Lee Hart wrote: > > >Carroll Waddell wrote: > > > > > >>Does anyone in the group have Microsoft Basic-80 for CP/M on hard > >>sector diskettes? > >> > >> > > > >Yes, I do. Microsoft MBASIC.COM rev. 5.21 was the latest version for > >CP/M but there are lots of others. > > > > > I hate to ask, but could I get a copy on a hard sector diskette? Soitenly! However, I'm on vacation at the moment (specifically, in a campground at Devil's Tower WY). But I will be home in a couple days. I'm on my laptop and don't have your address. In case it's not on my computer at home either, it could speed things up if you email it to me again privately, or send a stamped self-addressed envelope. Excuse me now while I go meet the flying saucer :-) -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 25 09:02:30 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Shkabara) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 07:02:30 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] BASIC-80 In-Reply-To: <41029521.605E@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200407251402.i6PE2Lbx083362@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp814.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Jul 2004 14:02:18 -0000 Lee, a non-technical comment. If you are vacationing at a campground, what are you doing being connected to the Internet! Folks, have we become too technical? Have a great time! Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -----Original Message----- > However, I'm on vacation at the moment (specifically, in a > campground at > Devil's Tower WY). But I will be home in a couple days. I'm > on my laptop > -- > Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun Jul 25 09:20:45 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:20:45 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] BASIC-80 In-Reply-To: <200407251402.i6PE2Lbx083362@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <000a01c47252$934c1c60$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> do you have to ask? ;>) > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Peter Shkabara > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 9:03 AM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: RE: [sebhc] BASIC-80 > > > Lee, a non-technical comment. If you are vacationing at a > campground, what are you doing being connected to the > Internet! Folks, have we become too technical? > > Have a great time! > > Peter > ----------------------------------------------------------- > peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > > > -----Original Message----- > > However, I'm on vacation at the moment (specifically, in a > > campground at > > Devil's Tower WY). But I will be home in a couple days. I'm > > on my laptop > > -- > > Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Jul 26 07:44:42 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:44:42 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 stuff Message-ID: <4104FCBA.3020106@sc.rr.com> A lot of rare H8 items hit ebay recently if you want to check them out. Only problem is they are in England CEW -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Mon Jul 26 17:13:11 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:13:11 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] BASIC-80 References: <200407251402.i6PE2Lbx083362@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <410581F7.6F97@earthlink.net> Peter Shkabara wrote: > Lee, a non-technical comment. If you are vacationing at a > campground, what are you doing being connected to the Internet! It seems we have become an on-line world. I have friends that never answer or write letters, and always let their answering machines answer the phone. The only way to reliably reach them is by email. If it's any consolation, my laptop is over 10 years old (a Compaq LTR/Lite 486 machine). I let over 1200 emails go unread during the week I was gone; just scanning and answering the few that I felt like. It was actually rather pleasant, sitting at a picnic table in the KOA campground, communicating with friends while Devil's Tower loomed in the foreground and the kids played nearby. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 26 15:53:32 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Improvements to the image transfer program Message-ID: <200407262053.NAA20467@clulw009.amd.com> Hi This weekend I worked on some enhancements to my image transfer program. The main one is that it will now let you know if you try to read a disk image and the volume number either doesn't match the image ( in the case of HDOS ) or that the volume number you stated as an override doesn't match. It also will tell you the actual volume number found in the sector header so that one can make a change to the override. It will also flag errors in reading tracks. Like the original, it will continue to transfer but will indicate which track it found read errors on. I some cases, these could be harmless unnused areas or even areas that the original formater had mapped out as unuseable. Since the program doesn't check why that track had errors, it is up to the user to determine the extent of the damage. When I went to test the program, I had all kinds of problems getting it to work. It seems that I'd forgotten one of the important steps in my own procedure. It often helps to read the instructions, even when you already know what you are doing! I still have a few minor changes to make so it'll be a day or so before I release the next version. For future work, I'm looking forward to supporting both double sided and 96 tpi. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Jul 26 16:57:07 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Improvements to the image transfer program In-Reply-To: <200407262053.NAA20467@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20040726215707.79952.qmail@web53705.mail.yahoo.com> I'm looking forward to giving the transfer program a workout, especially with the dd 96tpi enhancements - thanks! Jack --- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > Hi > This weekend I worked on some enhancements to my > image transfer program. The main one is that it will > now let you know if you try to read a disk image and > the volume number either doesn't match the image > ( in the case of HDOS ) or that the volume number > you stated as an override doesn't match. It also > will tell you the actual volume number found in the > sector header so that one can make a change to the > override. > It will also flag errors in reading tracks. Like > the > original, it will continue to transfer but will > indicate > which track it found read errors on. I some cases, > these could be harmless unnused areas or even areas > that the original formater had mapped out as > unuseable. > Since the program doesn't check why that track had > errors, it is up to the user to determine the extent > of the damage. > When I went to test the program, I had all kinds of > problems getting it to work. It seems that I'd > forgotten > one of the important steps in my own procedure. It > often helps to read the instructions, even when you > already know what you are doing! > I still have a few minor changes to make so it'll > be > a day or so before I release the next version. For > future work, I'm looking forward to supporting both > double sided and 96 tpi. > Dwight > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > sebhc-request at sebhc.org. > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 27 12:27:41 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Improvements to the image transfer program Message-ID: <200407271727.KAA21248@clulw009.amd.com> Hi All I've sent in the latest image transfer code. It is now H89LDR9.ZIP. The bootstrap code has changed so that if you are using an older version, you'll need to reenter the bootstrap code from the monitor and after loading the main loader, save it to your standalone floppy. The older version will not work with the new one because of an added command. I've also include a command at the PC to change the baud rate for those that only have the H8-5 to communicate through. The baud rate on the H8's H8-5 is jumper selected so you'll need to change the jumper to match the rate selected on the PC side. This is to account for the fact that may H8-5's do not work reliably at 9600 baud. The PC side can be set to 9600, 4800, 2400 or 1200. One of these will surely work. This command should not be used with the H89 or H8 with H8-4. There is no easy way for both sides to know what the baud rate is. The baud rate on the H89 and H8-4 is set by software instead of hardware. Both of these setups use rs232 level drivers that should have no issues at 9600 Baud, anyway. This code does have the added feature that it can determine the volume number that is actually in the sector headers of the disk. This is useful for non-HDOS disk. Some require one to set the override to match. For these disk, it is always a good idea to save information as to what the volume number of the disk is, if it is a non-HDOS. There are 256 possible volume numbers. It would be a pain to have to try them all when restoring the image to a disk. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 28 19:10:57 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Shkabara) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:10:57 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] H89 stuff Message-ID: <200407290010.i6T0AZsa074728@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp813.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Jul 2004 00:10:34 -0000 I made the decision. My personal H89 that I used to develop all of the ANAPRO stuff on is now on e-bay. We are moving and I have not used the Z80 machine in quite a while. 70 lbs of computer and documents is too much to move if you are not using it! In searching through the parts bins in my garage, I found other leftover ANAPRO items. I have a number of 4MHz conversion circuit boards, as well as a few 6MHz mods. Several Z80H (8MHz speed) are also among the parts. Here are some other items I found: 444-41 (1 pc) 444-42 (3 pcs) 444-43 (6 pcs) 444-66 (1 pc) CDR86 (1 pc) As I posted before, I also have 7 pcs of a high-speed version of the 444-66 that is needed for the 6MHz mod. Send me e-mail if you have any interest. Mainly I am trying to decide what to save, what to sell, and what to scrap before the move. Some of the activity will have to wait till after the move, but I don't want to toss in the trash things that may be of interest to others. Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Jul 28 20:21:00 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:21:00 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H89 stuff In-Reply-To: <200407290010.i6T0AZsa074728@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <000001c4750a$4fcf87a0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Peter, I'm definitely interested in a couple of the speed-up kits - I don't know what is required for a full kit, but I'd like 2 complete kits (ie boards plus ancillary chips plus docs) if they are available. Likewise, I'd like the opportunity to add any of your ANAPRO software and docs to the SEBHC archives. We don't seem to have come to any sort of standard for non-hard sectored disks, so I'd be happy to have any sort of image you can provide against the time where we can standardize on some interchange format in the future. Maybe the answer is EMULATE or CPC? I can't find my docs for these programs, but I know I have them around here somewhere. Anyhow, please let me know how I can help take advantage of your generosity (sounds strange, but I hope you know what I mean)! Thanks. Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Peter Shkabara > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 7:11 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: [sebhc] H89 stuff > > > I made the decision. My personal H89 that I used to develop > all of the ANAPRO stuff on is now on e-bay. We are moving and > I have not used the Z80 machine in quite a while. 70 lbs of > computer and documents is too much to move if you are not using it! > > In searching through the parts bins in my garage, I found > other leftover ANAPRO items. I have a number of 4MHz > conversion circuit boards, as well as a few 6MHz mods. > Several Z80H (8MHz speed) are also among the parts. Here are > some other items I found: 444-41 (1 pc) 444-42 (3 pcs) 444-43 > (6 pcs) 444-66 (1 pc) CDR86 (1 pc) > > As I posted before, I also have 7 pcs of a high-speed version > of the 444-66 that is needed for the 6MHz mod. > > Send me e-mail if you have any interest. Mainly I am trying > to decide what to save, what to sell, and what to scrap > before the move. Some of the activity will have to wait till > after the move, but I don't want to toss in the trash things > that may be of interest to others. > > Peter > ----------------------------------------------------------- > peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 28 23:42:07 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Shkabara) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:42:07 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] H89 stuff In-Reply-To: <000001c4750a$4fcf87a0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <200407290442.i6T4g8wm078549@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp804.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Jul 2004 04:42:07 -0000 Jack, We will need to talk about the hardware items. It might have to wait till I complete my move - things are getting a bit hectic as I try to "clean out the cobwebs" from years of accumulation! I will need some help as to the software. All of my source code from the CP/M and HDOS products is on my PC now. A few glitches have surfaced - some of the archives are in CP/M libraries, and I am not sure if I have the software to extract them! I used LU to make the libraries. Perhaps SEBHC members can help me out here. Is there emulation software that will allow me to work in an XP environment to handle LU libraries? Next item would be the creation of assembled disk images. I have source code and CP/M or HDOS object code. However, I can't read the CP/M or HDOS disks on my XP PC machine - or can I? Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -----Original Message----- > Peter, > > I'm definitely interested in a couple of the speed-up kits - I don't > know what is required for a full kit, but I'd like 2 complete kits (ie > boards plus ancillary chips plus docs) if they are available. > > Likewise, I'd like the opportunity to add any of your ANAPRO software > and docs to the SEBHC archives. We don't seem to have come to any sort > of standard for non-hard sectored disks, so I'd be happy to have any > sort of image you can provide against the time where we can > standardize > on some interchange format in the future. Maybe the answer is > EMULATE or > CPC? I can't find my docs for these programs, but I know I have them > around here somewhere. > > Anyhow, please let me know how I can help take advantage of your > generosity (sounds strange, but I hope you know what I mean)! > Thanks. > > Jack -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jul 29 11:27:35 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H89 stuff Message-ID: <200407291627.JAA23117@clulw009.amd.com> Hi You can use the emmulator that Eric has or you can use my WRCPM to copy the files onto a blank CPM disk image ( in my WRCPM.ZIP release ). There must be someone with a LU program that runs in DOS. There is still a DOS window. Once the files are in the image file, we can get them onto a real disk using my transfer program. Dwight >From: "Peter Shkabara" > >Jack, > >We will need to talk about the hardware items. It might have to wait till I >complete my move - things are getting a bit hectic as I try to "clean out >the cobwebs" from years of accumulation! I will need some help as to the >software. All of my source code from the CP/M and HDOS products is on my PC >now. A few glitches have surfaced - some of the archives are in CP/M >libraries, and I am not sure if I have the software to extract them! I used >LU to make the libraries. Perhaps SEBHC members can help me out here. Is >there emulation software that will allow me to work in an XP environment to >handle LU libraries? > >Next item would be the creation of assembled disk images. I have source code >and CP/M or HDOS object code. However, I can't read the CP/M or HDOS disks >on my XP PC machine - or can I? > >Peter >----------------------------------------------------------- >peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > > >> -----Original Message----- >> Peter, >> >> I'm definitely interested in a couple of the speed-up kits - I don't >> know what is required for a full kit, but I'd like 2 complete kits (ie >> boards plus ancillary chips plus docs) if they are available. >> >> Likewise, I'd like the opportunity to add any of your ANAPRO software >> and docs to the SEBHC archives. We don't seem to have come to any sort >> of standard for non-hard sectored disks, so I'd be happy to have any >> sort of image you can provide against the time where we can >> standardize >> on some interchange format in the future. Maybe the answer is >> EMULATE or >> CPC? I can't find my docs for these programs, but I know I have them >> around here somewhere. >> >> Anyhow, please let me know how I can help take advantage of your >> generosity (sounds strange, but I hope you know what I mean)! >> Thanks. >> >> Jack > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jul 29 12:13:35 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H89 stuff Message-ID: <200407291713.KAA23133@clulw009.amd.com> ---snip--- >>From: "Peter Shkabara" >> >>Next item would be the creation of assembled disk images. I have source code >>and CP/M or HDOS object code. However, I can't read the CP/M or HDOS disks >>on my XP PC machine - or can I? >> >>Peter ---snip-- Hi I forgot to mention. If the disk are softsectored and your PC can handle that format, you can read and write them. For hard sectored, you'd need some special hardware. Even for soft sectored, most PC can't read/write single density. You also can not write a 48tpi disk with a 96tpi drive and expect them to work on a 48tpi drive. You can read 48tpi disk on a 96tpi drive though. It is unlikely that your XP machine support much of anything other than double or quad density. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Jul 29 14:23:34 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H89 stuff - DOS LU In-Reply-To: <200407291713.KAA23133@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20040729192334.83448.qmail@web53708.mail.yahoo.com> Peter, Take a look at http://www.eunet.bg/simtel.net/msdos/arcutils.html - looks like lu.zip will do what you want (read LU files under DOS) but that assumes that you can physically get the files to your XP machine (null modem or ?) - I hope they aren't on 8" disks, now that you've sold your drive!! ;>) Jack --- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > ---snip--- > >>From: "Peter Shkabara" > > >> > >>Next item would be the creation of assembled disk > images. I have source code > >>and CP/M or HDOS object code. However, I can't > read the CP/M or HDOS disks > >>on my XP PC machine - or can I? > >> > >>Peter > ---snip-- > > Hi > I forgot to mention. If the disk are softsectored > and your > PC can handle that format, you can read and write > them. > For hard sectored, you'd need some special hardware. > Even for soft sectored, most PC can't read/write > single density. > You also can not write a 48tpi disk with a 96tpi > drive > and expect them to work on a 48tpi drive. You can > read 48tpi disk on a 96tpi drive though. > It is unlikely that your XP machine support much of > anything > other than double or quad density. > Dwight > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > sebhc-request at sebhc.org. > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 29 15:29:07 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Shkabara) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:29:07 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] H89 stuff - DOS LU In-Reply-To: <20040729192334.83448.qmail@web53708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200407292029.i6TKTBON095519@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp806.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Jul 2004 20:29:05 -0000 Jack, I guess I am getting senile! I already have LU for the PC on my computer and did use it some time ago. All of my CP/M stuff is already on the PC so no problem from that end. As for the 8-inch drive, I had no more files on 8-inch, and I had no device to operate it with in any case. My next task will be to see if I can write to Heath format CP/M disks with my XP machine. I will first connect the 5.25 inch 40 track drive that I still have. Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -----Original Message----- > Take a look at > http://www.eunet.bg/simtel.net/msdos/arcutils.html - > looks like lu.zip will do what you want (read LU files > under DOS) but that assumes that you can physically > get the files to your XP machine (null modem or ?) - I > hope they aren't on 8" disks, now that you've sold > your drive!! ;>) > > Jack -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Jul 29 15:39:31 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:39:31 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [sebhc] H89 stuff - DD drives on XP... Message-ID: <16902114.1091133572743.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> just a quick note on dd 5 1/4 drives on XP systems... I haven't had time to research completely, but I attempted just that before I had to fly out to the west coast. Bios had no problem with it, but the format menu for the drive in XP was blank. There were no options to handle the drive. Checking system told me that the drive was there and that it was working properly. I even tried at a dos prompt to do the normal format command with parameters for the 40 track drive and that did not work. When I get back next week, I will look into it further, but the first take was that XP didn't know what a DD disk was. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Peter Shkabara Sent: Jul 29, 2004 1:29 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: RE: [sebhc] H89 stuff - DOS LU Jack, I guess I am getting senile! I already have LU for the PC on my computer and did use it some time ago. All of my CP/M stuff is already on the PC so no problem from that end. As for the 8-inch drive, I had no more files on 8-inch, and I had no device to operate it with in any case. My next task will be to see if I can write to Heath format CP/M disks with my XP machine. I will first connect the 5.25 inch 40 track drive that I still have. Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -----Original Message----- > Take a look at > http://www.eunet.bg/simtel.net/msdos/arcutils.html - > looks like lu.zip will do what you want (read LU files > under DOS) but that assumes that you can physically > get the files to your XP machine (null modem or ?) - I > hope they aren't on 8" disks, now that you've sold > your drive!! ;>) > > Jack -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jul 29 19:43:39 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H89 stuff - DOS LU Message-ID: <200407300043.RAA23442@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Get it into an image first. We already have the technology to get these to a H89 machine with a hard sectored CP/M disk. Using Eric's emulator or my code you can get it into an image file. It is unlikely that you'll be about to get anything but windows format files with XP. Dwight >From: "Peter Shkabara" > >Jack, I guess I am getting senile! I already have LU for the PC on my >computer and did use it some time ago. All of my CP/M stuff is already on >the PC so no problem from that end. As for the 8-inch drive, I had no more >files on 8-inch, and I had no device to operate it with in any case. > >My next task will be to see if I can write to Heath format CP/M disks with >my XP machine. I will first connect the 5.25 inch 40 track drive that I >still have. > >Peter >----------------------------------------------------------- >peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > > >> -----Original Message----- >> Take a look at >> http://www.eunet.bg/simtel.net/msdos/arcutils.html - >> looks like lu.zip will do what you want (read LU files >> under DOS) but that assumes that you can physically >> get the files to your XP machine (null modem or ?) - I >> hope they aren't on 8" disks, now that you've sold >> your drive!! ;>) >> >> Jack > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 30 13:12:43 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Shkabara) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:12:43 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] manuals Message-ID: <200407301812.i6UICciB017713@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp804.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2004 18:12:37 -0000 My garage cleaning continues. I found two copies of a Seagate ST225 manual, and one for the Magnolia CP/M software and MMS 77320 SASI-bus interface to the H89. Anyone want or need these? Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Jul 30 14:16:48 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] manuals In-Reply-To: <200407301812.i6UICciB017713@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <20040730191648.41366.qmail@web53707.mail.yahoo.com> yes, please - and anything else Magnolia if it surfaces! If anyone else would like this stuff, I'll put in the archive right away. Jack --- Peter Shkabara wrote: > My garage cleaning continues. I found two copies of > a Seagate ST225 manual, > and one for the Magnolia CP/M software and MMS 77320 > SASI-bus interface to > the H89. Anyone want or need these? > > Peter > ----------------------------------------------------------- > peter59 at sbcglobal.net - > http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 31 20:14:26 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Shkabara) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 18:14:26 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] manuals Message-ID: <200408010114.i711ERAi048616@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp805.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2004 01:14:16 -0000 Since a number of you responded to the manuals offer, I am sending the booklets to Jack Rubin who will copy them and make them available to anyone that wants them. Stay tuned and post a question in a few weeks if you have not heard any announcements. What I am sending to Jack are the following booklets: Seagate ST225 manual Magnolia CP/M software installation for the MMS 77320 SASI-bus Disk Interface Tandon TM 100 Disk Drive Operation and Service Manual Microsoft BASIC Reference (as published by Zenith) Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/