From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jun 1 04:48:15 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 02:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update Message-ID: <200406010948.i519mFvs054683@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by mail.toadware.ca with SMTP; 1 Jun 2004 10:01:00 -0000 At 23:03 31/05/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Dave, >I was just looking at an article in the July 1981 edition of >microcomputing titled, "Dissecting the HDOS Diskette." I don't have any >idea if it will help you or not, but if you want it, and give me your >address, I'll make a copy of it for you. Also, are you looking for the >H17 controller card, or the diskette drive and enclosure? >Carroll Hi Carroll, This sounds like it would be VERY useful - please do send a copy: Dave Dunfield 115 Manion Heights Cres. RR#2 Carp, Ontario Canada K0A 1L0 I will scan it and make it available to everyone. Yes - I would like very much to find an H17 card. The drive and enclosure would be nice as well, although I do have a stack of drives that should work (the H17 drive is a standard 5.25" non-HD drive right? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jun 1 04:48:19 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 02:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Quick note on my favorite topic - Floppy Formats Message-ID: <200406010948.i519mFdR054685@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by mail.toadware.ca with SMTP; 1 Jun 2004 10:01:03 -0000 At 23:35 31/05/2004, you wrote: >Question for Dave or someone who has used his emulator more >than I: > > - how important is the "volume number" for a diskette? > >As we get the floppy format issue settled, we'll probably >need to store the volume number in the image header. >However, I've never really cared much about the volume >number...but someone might. > >The way an H17 HS disk is formated, the volume number is >in the sector header. For track 0, this number is always >0. For the remaining tracks, it is the volume number of >the floppy. This is perhaps a weakness in the emulator's drive emulation. I made the decision NOT to include the sector headers in the drive data file - the file contains only the 256 byte data portion of each sector - this is consistant with the drive images which are posted on the SEBHC site. The emulator really does not care about the drive volume number. It needs to know it so that it can generate appropriate sector headers above track zero - to do this, it reads sector 9 when the diskette is mounted. [I'll bet this is one reason why INIT doesn't work - I don't currently accept data for sector headers, and would therefore not return the right volume id after an init - I'll have to check into this] Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jun 1 04:48:16 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 02:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update Message-ID: <200406010948.i519mGlS054684@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by mail.toadware.ca with SMTP; 1 Jun 2004 10:01:02 -0000 Hi Eric, >I have the source going up tomorrow for the "fstool" program >which includes support for the HDOS file system. You can get >a good idea of how HDOS does things from it, or feel free to >use what you like. Thanks - I will check it out. >BTW, I told Steven that I'd put it up as a tar-ball for Linux-types. >Do I need to do a ZIP also? Yes please! Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Jun 1 06:49:01 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 06:49:01 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update In-Reply-To: <200406010948.i519mFvs054683@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <000001c447ce$6ec780e0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Dave said: > > Yes - I would like very much to find an H17 card. The drive > and enclosure would be nice as well, although I do have a > stack of drives that should work (the H17 drive is a standard > 5.25" non-HD drive right? For the H17, you need a drive with the ability to read the sector-index. It's also nice if DS can be changed with jumpers, though you could handle drive select in the cable if you had to. I expect anything old enough to handle hard sector will have drive select jumpers. I'm using full-height Tandon 100's, but I can't remember the exact model designation. I'll put together a list of candidates if it would be helpful. Jack -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jun 1 07:43:17 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 05:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update Message-ID: <200406011243.i51ChHrU057447@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by mail.toadware.ca with SMTP; 1 Jun 2004 12:58:35 -0000 Hi Jack, >For the H17, you need a drive with the ability to read the sector-index. >It's also nice if DS can be changed with jumpers, though you could >handle drive select in the cable if you had to. I expect anything old >enough to handle hard sector will have drive select jumpers. I'm using >full-height Tandon 100's, but I can't remember the exact model >designation. I'll put together a list of candidates if it would be >helpful. "Normal" drives can do both of these things - I have some TM-100's, so I'm all set - well - except for the H17 itself :-( Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Jun 1 08:44:25 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 09:44:25 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update In-Reply-To: <000601c44786$cf6e7950$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> References: <000601c44786$cf6e7950$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <40BC8839.4040200@sc.rr.com> I'll try to scan and upload today or tommorrow. I just posted an article by Pat Swain on a Z80 upgrade. CEW Jack Rubin wrote: >Carroll, > >That sounds like something a lot of people would be interested in. Would >you please scan it or send me a copy and I'll post it to the archive. > >Thanks! > >Jack > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of >>Carroll Waddell >>Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 10:04 PM >>To: sebhc at sebhc.org >>Subject: Re: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update >> >> >>Dave, >>I was just looking at an article in the July 1981 edition of >>microcomputing titled, "Dissecting the HDOS Diskette." I >>don't have any >>idea if it will help you or not, but if you want it, and give me your >>address, I'll make a copy of it for you. Also, are you >>looking for the >>H17 controller card, or the diskette drive and enclosure? Carroll >> >>Dave Dunfield wrote: >> >> >> >>>>My only other top wishlist item would be double-sided and >>>> >>>> >>40/80-track >> >> >>>>(or >>>>N-track) disk emulation. >>>>:-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>I need to understand how HDOS knows what size the drive is. >>>If you could give me bootable images for 40-track DS, >>> >>> >>80-Track SS and >> >> >>>80-track DS, what would help a lot. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>But its really fabulous already! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Thanks - It's probably the only way I'll ever be able to run HDOS... >>>[If anyone EVER see's an available H17 - please let me know!] >>> >>>Although slow, it's amazingly cool to run the emulator under >>> >>> >>Pocket-DOS >> >> >>>on my palmtop - with the sideways screen option you can fit >>> >>> >>the entire >> >> >>>H8 front panel onto the screen at once! >>> >>>Regards, >>>Dave >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Jun 1 08:45:33 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 09:45:33 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update In-Reply-To: <200406010948.i519mFvs054683@gatekeeper.evocative.com> References: <200406010948.i519mFvs054683@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <40BC887D.1020402@sc.rr.com> I hope it is. I modified an IBM drive to try when I locate a boot diskette. CEW Dave Dunfield wrote: >At 23:03 31/05/2004 -0400, you wrote: > > >>Dave, >>I was just looking at an article in the July 1981 edition of >>microcomputing titled, "Dissecting the HDOS Diskette." I don't have any >>idea if it will help you or not, but if you want it, and give me your >>address, I'll make a copy of it for you. Also, are you looking for the >>H17 controller card, or the diskette drive and enclosure? >>Carroll >> >> > >Hi Carroll, > >This sounds like it would be VERY useful - please do send a copy: > > Dave Dunfield > 115 Manion Heights Cres. > RR#2 Carp, Ontario Canada > K0A 1L0 > >I will scan it and make it available to everyone. > >Yes - I would like very much to find an H17 card. The drive and >enclosure would be nice as well, although I do have a stack of >drives that should work (the H17 drive is a standard 5.25" non-HD >drive right? > >Regards, >Dave > > From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Jun 1 08:50:03 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 09:50:03 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update In-Reply-To: <200406011243.i51ChHrU057447@gatekeeper.evocative.com> References: <200406011243.i51ChHrU057447@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <40BC898B.5060207@sc.rr.com> Sounds like we need to try a build a new diskette controller board. CEW Dave Dunfield wrote: >Hi Jack, > > > >>For the H17, you need a drive with the ability to read the sector-index. >>It's also nice if DS can be changed with jumpers, though you could >>handle drive select in the cable if you had to. I expect anything old >>enough to handle hard sector will have drive select jumpers. I'm using >>full-height Tandon 100's, but I can't remember the exact model >>designation. I'll put together a list of candidates if it would be >>helpful. >> >> > >"Normal" drives can do both of these things - I have some TM-100's, >so I'm all set - well - except for the H17 itself :-( > >Regards, >Dave > > From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Jun 1 08:47:38 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 09:47:38 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update In-Reply-To: <200406010948.i519mFvs054683@gatekeeper.evocative.com> References: <200406010948.i519mFvs054683@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <40BC88FA.6090003@sc.rr.com> Dave, I'm going to scan the HDOS infor and upload it. Jack thought several people would like to have it. Actually, as hot as it is here, I'd like to deliver it to you personally. Hope it's cooler where you live. CEW Dave Dunfield wrote: >At 23:03 31/05/2004 -0400, you wrote: > > >>Dave, >>I was just looking at an article in the July 1981 edition of >>microcomputing titled, "Dissecting the HDOS Diskette." I don't have any >>idea if it will help you or not, but if you want it, and give me your >>address, I'll make a copy of it for you. Also, are you looking for the >>H17 controller card, or the diskette drive and enclosure? >>Carroll >> >> > >Hi Carroll, > >This sounds like it would be VERY useful - please do send a copy: > > Dave Dunfield > 115 Manion Heights Cres. > RR#2 Carp, Ontario Canada > K0A 1L0 > >I will scan it and make it available to everyone. > >Yes - I would like very much to find an H17 card. The drive and >enclosure would be nice as well, although I do have a stack of >drives that should work (the H17 drive is a standard 5.25" non-HD >drive right? > >Regards, >Dave > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 1 12:36:58 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 10:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update Message-ID: <200406011736.KAA26694@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Carroll I've just sent Steven a copy of my H89LDR6.ZIP. Over the weekend, I've confirmed that it works with the XCON8 and H8-4 serial card. You need to follow the instructions in the README.TXT of the H8 exactly! You should use the image of the HDOS20 that is on the web page. It uses channel 1 of the card. This is normally the line printer port. You need to connect a RS232 cable between the PC and this port. Make sure you get the signals correct. Use one of those led light indicators to check the the signals are correct. Only one end of the cable should light pin 2 and pin 3 from the other. For those that don't know what the H89LDR is, it is a way to bring up a H89 and now H8 system without have any disk with code. All one needs is the image files to load. One enters a small bootstrap from the front panel monitor and then code is downloaded to the H89/H8 to copy images to the disk. The version 6 only handles machines with the H8-4 serial card. So far, it has only been confirmed to work with the Z80 processor card and the XCON8 monitor. I am currently writing code to use with the PAM8 and the H8-5 Cassette/Serial card. It requires a little bit of different code since it uses the 8251 instead of the 8250 for serial. I expect to have this newer version working with a week or so. I you have a working drive and a blank disk, you should be able to use my code to resort things to the disk. My code can also be used to move disk images to and from the H89/H8 systems for backup and such. Please let me know if you have any problems with my code. On the H8, the only minor issue I've seen is that when it runs, it leaves the drives motor running. So far, this hasn't caused any issues. Also, if the code works for you, please let me know. Since this is free code, thanks is the only pay I get. I also recommend that if you are copying disk that you have to the PC that you put write protect tags on your disk. The disk drive will protect your disk from accidental execution of the wrong instruction or from possible errors in my code. Better safe than sorry. Dwight >From: "Carroll Waddell" > >Dave, >I'm going to scan the HDOS infor and upload it. Jack thought several >people would like to have it. >Actually, as hot as it is here, I'd like to deliver it to you >personally. Hope it's cooler where you live. >CEW > >Dave Dunfield wrote: > >>At 23:03 31/05/2004 -0400, you wrote: >> >> >>>Dave, >>>I was just looking at an article in the July 1981 edition of >>>microcomputing titled, "Dissecting the HDOS Diskette." I don't have any >>>idea if it will help you or not, but if you want it, and give me your >>>address, I'll make a copy of it for you. Also, are you looking for the >>>H17 controller card, or the diskette drive and enclosure? >>>Carroll >>> >>> >> >>Hi Carroll, >> >>This sounds like it would be VERY useful - please do send a copy: >> >> Dave Dunfield >> 115 Manion Heights Cres. >> RR#2 Carp, Ontario Canada >> K0A 1L0 >> >>I will scan it and make it available to everyone. >> >>Yes - I would like very much to find an H17 card. The drive and >>enclosure would be nice as well, although I do have a stack of >>drives that should work (the H17 drive is a standard 5.25" non-HD >>drive right? >> >>Regards, >>Dave >> >> -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 1 12:48:23 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 10:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] My H8 Systems Message-ID: <200406011748.KAA26700@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Steven I thought I'd disassembled the H17 code a while back but realized that it was the code for my Poly 8813 that I'd done this on. I disassembled the H17 and looked at the code sequence and sure enough, it was the wait for index hole part of the code. The problem had me going for a while. I tried both controller cards that I had and both did the same thing. I put a scope on the signals going to the disk drive. A number of them were not working correctly. I could imagine that both drives and both controllers had the same problems. I should have been suspicious of what was the real problem. When I got the disk drives, ( baught separately from the systems ) I noticed that there was a terminator installed on both drive ( not a good idea to over load the outputs ). It took me a while to realize that some idiot had installed the wrong kind of terminators. The Siemens drives use the kind that has the common lead to pin 14 and not the straight through type. I installed a correct termiantor and now thing are working fine. I was able to check out my code and find the best sequence to get it working correctly. Dwight >From: "Steven Parker" > >Dwight says: >>The code seems to hange at 035.311 >>This seems to be waiting for some RAM to be updated >>by an interrupt. > >That's the generic delay routine, watching the TICCNT value. The step motor >routine uses it to pace head motions. If it's trying to move the head to >home and not making it, it would make sense that it spends a lot of time in >this routine. > >If you've got more than one drive and none step, perhaps the controller >board isn't asserting the step line properly in response to the I/O port >commands. > >On my own status: > >Thanks to Walt, all the power swtiches work now. :-) I also replaced the >blown cap on the 3rd H8's CPU board and now it comes up .. sortof. >Sometimes it comes up and looks normal, other times it seems to come up >running in user mode (the pc is displayed, and changing). Even when it >comes up and looks normal something else is odd. If I try the memory test >it crashes with lights out and continuous tone. I'll have to do some more >testing on that one. > >Still haven't done anything yet with the drive that steps one way only. > >Cheers, > >- Steven > >_________________________________________________________________ >Learn to simplify your finances and your life in Streamline Your Life from >MSN Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0405streamline.armx > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 1 13:36:06 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 11:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] My H8 Systems Message-ID: <200406011836.LAA26721@clulw009.amd.com> Hi All Well, I got my H8 with the Z80 running. All worked fine. I checked out my bootstrap and image transfer program ( H89LDR ) and it works fine. I sent a copy to Steven so hopefully he gets it post to the web soon. I started on bring up my other H8 with the 8080 processor. This one had seen a lot of time stored someplace where the humidity was a little high. Many of the chips had the silver plated pin. This is a bad idea for chips in the long term. Any little crack in the plating and electrolysis erodes the pins from the inside out. Anyway, I spent many hours tracking down failures in the RAMs and other chips caused by pins that looked intact but were really broken inside. I plugged in one of the disk controller cards and used that to run its RAM test ( Not a really great test but it found most all of the problems, more about that later in my story ). Some of the failures were really tricky. I found that it is best to move possible failing parts to the lower order bits to save testing time. It didn't seem like I was ever going to get things working and I was beginning to run low on spare 4K RAMs. I spent more than 8 hours getting these to work. For those that are doing this, you need to have working RAM for both the beginning and the end of memory. It is hard to make sure all is OK when you are trying to test. I found that it is best to have just one working memory card at the 040.000 location and then leave a gap between that card and the one your testing. I would then modify the HL and DE registers from the ones set by starting at 030.003. It takes a little longer but some times one has to do what one can. This kept the monitor happy and allowed testing of really flaky boards that wuld otherwise have hung the monitor. In order to get the controller card working in the PAM8 environment, I had to undo the modifications done to make it work with the XCON8. This included removing a jumper and installing a 68 ohm resistor along with a 47 pf capacitor. Luckily, this board had both the ROM and the two RAMs still installed. The other board I have, that I use with my Z80 machine, doesn't have these chips. The RAM test that they have could be improved. Instead of just incrementing the value, they could have use a rotate or a lfsr to create the values. It would significantly reduce the amount of time to test the RAM. A full 64K system take over 10 minutes to test. I recommend that if you are running this test that you watch the BC register from the panel. It needs to make a complete cycle from 000 to 377 before it had made a complete pass through your memory. The MSB's take for ever to get to. This is why I recommend moving suspect RAMs to the LSB's. This only takes a few moments. Another thing that the test doesn't do it that it uses the write/read type of test. It should be expanded to to a read/write/read. It wouldn't take much to modify since the C register isn't being used and that can hold the previous value. Well, on to getting the system up and running. I plugged my disk drive onto the system and things were looking much better. The only problem was that the serial input wasn't working correctly ( this is through the H8-5 board ). I would get the message fine from the booting disk but no matter what I typed, it would not continue. It took me a while to realize that it had to be something between the serial chip and the RS323 connector. A little time with the scope and I realized that the optical isolator was a little too slow. I swapped this with the one used for transmit ( I isn't pushed quite as much for the transmit side and can tolerate a little less ) and finally got things working. It was late so I didn't get a chance to play with my H89LDR code and the H8-5 board. In any case, I now have two H8's up and running. Yaaaayy!! Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 1 13:55:58 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 11:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] My H8 Systems Message-ID: <200406011855.LAA26731@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > ---snip--- >a good idea to over load the outputs ). It took me a while >to realize that some idiot had installed the wrong kind of >terminators. The Siemens drives use the kind that has the >common lead to pin 14 and not the straight through type. >I installed a correct termiantor and now thing are working >fine. I was able to check out my code and find the best sequence >to get it working correctly. >Dwight > Hi I should have noted here that one should always place write protects tags on your disk when working in an unknown system. The incorrect terminators, in my case, caused the \WGATE signal to be low. This erased the data on two of my disks. Luckily, in my case, both disks had been backed up with my H89LDR so restoring them wasn't an issue. One needs to be especially careful with software that one doesn't know what the disk may contain. We need to save as many of these jewels as possible. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 1 14:48:41 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 19:48:41 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update Message-ID: >I need to understand how HDOS knows what size the drive is. >If you could give me bootable images for 40-track DS, 80-Track SS >and 80-track DS, what would help a lot. All the size info comes from the label sector. But bootable? Wouldn't just mountable do? I made up some blanks in various formats (by hand, I don't actually have a ds, 96-tpi drive) and put them in a new empty-init section under disk-images. I haven't yet made my fantasy 512-track megafloppy. :-) But be aware these images aren't tested themselves. Maybe Eric's sftool can help confirm their integrity when it's uploaded. >[I'll bet this is one reason why INIT doesn't work - I don't > currently accept data for sector headers, and would therefore > not return the right volume id after an init - I'll have to > check into this] No, it never gets that far .. the message "Wrong type of media ...". indicates that initial media tests (involving index hole timing) didn't pass. Before it begins actually writing the disk, it will ask you want volume number you want to use. If you can get past the media test, I'd bet you can ignore header writes and just update the volume number whenever the label sector is written. Cheers, - Steven _________________________________________________________________ Get 200+ ad-free, high-fidelity stations and LIVE Major League Baseball Gameday Audio! http://radio.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200491ave/direct/01/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Jun 1 15:01:31 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 16:01:31 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] My H8 Systems In-Reply-To: <200406011836.LAA26721@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200406011836.LAA26721@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <40BCE09B.3090604@sc.rr.com> WAY TO GO CEW Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >Hi All > Well, I got my H8 with the Z80 running. All worked fine. >I checked out my bootstrap and image transfer program >( H89LDR ) and it works fine. I sent a copy to Steven so >hopefully he gets it post to the web soon. > I started on bring up my other H8 with the 8080 processor. >This one had seen a lot of time stored someplace where >the humidity was a little high. Many of the chips had >the silver plated pin. This is a bad idea for chips in >the long term. Any little crack in the plating and >electrolysis erodes the pins from the inside out. > Anyway, I spent many hours tracking down failures >in the RAMs and other chips caused by pins that looked >intact but were really broken inside. I plugged in one >of the disk controller cards and used that to run its >RAM test ( Not a really great test but it found most >all of the problems, more about that later in my story ). >Some of the failures were really tricky. I found that >it is best to move possible failing parts to the lower >order bits to save testing time. It didn't seem like >I was ever going to get things working and I was beginning >to run low on spare 4K RAMs. I spent more than 8 hours >getting these to work. > For those that are doing this, you need to have working >RAM for both the beginning and the end of memory. >It is hard to make sure all is OK when you are trying >to test. I found that it is best to have just one >working memory card at the 040.000 location and then >leave a gap between that card and the one your testing. >I would then modify the HL and DE registers from >the ones set by starting at 030.003. It takes a little >longer but some times one has to do what one can. >This kept the monitor happy and allowed testing of >really flaky boards that wuld otherwise have hung >the monitor. > In order to get the controller card working in the >PAM8 environment, I had to undo the modifications done >to make it work with the XCON8. This included removing >a jumper and installing a 68 ohm resistor along with >a 47 pf capacitor. Luckily, this board had both the >ROM and the two RAMs still installed. The other board I >have, that I use with my Z80 machine, doesn't have these >chips. > The RAM test that they have could be improved. Instead >of just incrementing the value, they could have use >a rotate or a lfsr to create the values. It would >significantly reduce the amount of time to test the >RAM. A full 64K system take over 10 minutes to test. >I recommend that if you are running this test that >you watch the BC register from the panel. It needs to >make a complete cycle from 000 to 377 before it had >made a complete pass through your memory. The MSB's >take for ever to get to. This is why I recommend moving >suspect RAMs to the LSB's. This only takes a few moments. > Another thing that the test doesn't do it that it uses >the write/read type of test. It should be expanded to >to a read/write/read. It wouldn't take much to modify >since the C register isn't being used and that can >hold the previous value. > Well, on to getting the system up and running. I plugged >my disk drive onto the system and things were looking much >better. The only problem was that the serial input wasn't >working correctly ( this is through the H8-5 board ). >I would get the message fine from the booting >disk but no matter what I typed, it would not continue. >It took me a while to realize that it had to be something >between the serial chip and the RS323 connector. A little >time with the scope and I realized that the optical >isolator was a little too slow. I swapped this with >the one used for transmit ( I isn't pushed quite as much >for the transmit side and can tolerate a little less ) >and finally got things working. > It was late so I didn't get a chance to play with my >H89LDR code and the H8-5 board. In any case, I now have >two H8's up and running. Yaaaayy!! >Dwight > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 1 15:07:12 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 20:07:12 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] Dwight's transfer tool Message-ID: >>I checked out my bootstrap and image transfer program >>( H89LDR ) and it works fine. I sent a copy to Steven so >>hopefully he gets it post to the web soon. It's in the "utilities" section (the top-level one). _________________________________________________________________ Learn to simplify your finances and your life in Streamline Your Life from MSN Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0405streamline.armx -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Tue Jun 1 17:37:27 2004 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 18:37:27 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Blanks check... In-Reply-To: <1086117902@rothfus.com> (eric@rothfus.com) References: <1086117902@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <1086129228@rothfus.com> It looks like the 80-track single sided image is slightly busted. Although the label on track 9 is well-formed, and even the ascii description says "1 side", the (int) that matters says 2. This, coupled with the 80 tracks and group size of 4 violates the 200 group rule and breaks. Yup, the fstool needs a check for this... Considering that Steven hand crafted the image, just this one bug is pretty impressive... :-) -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Tue Jun 1 17:17:27 2004 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 18:17:27 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update In-Reply-To: (sp11@hotmail.com) References: Message-ID: <1086117902@rothfus.com> I took the liberty of trying Steven's blanks with fstool, and discovered a few things: - the first blank looks good - 1 side 40 track 10 sector I had to fudge the volume label...but no big deal. The RGT and GRT look fine too. - the single sided 80 track is reporting as 2 sides in "fstool". Don't know where the problem is... either in fstool or in the label sector on the disk. I'll try to figure it out and let you know. I haven't used fstool on anything but 40-track images up to now. Note that not only is is reporting as 2, it is crashing the program. Bad, bad programmer! :-) - Also, I didn't know how the binary represents multiple sides. Using (side,track,sector) is it: (0,0,0) (0,0,1) (0,0,2) ... (0,0,9) (0,1,0) (0,1,1) ... (0,39,9) (1,0,0) (sectors, then tracks, then sides) or the cylinder approach (0,0,0) (0,0,1) (0,0,2) ... (0,0,9) (1,0,0) (1,0,1) (sectors, then sides, then tracks) or as some whacky formats are done (kinda' a head one, head two thing): (0,0,0) (1,0,0) (0,0,1) (1,0,1) (0,0,2) (sector side 1, sector side 2, then tracks) ... More later. Eric -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 1 19:16:33 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 17:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Dwight's transfer tool Message-ID: <200406020016.RAA26927@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Steven Parker" > >>>I checked out my bootstrap and image transfer program >>>( H89LDR ) and it works fine. I sent a copy to Steven so >>>hopefully he gets it post to the web soon. > >It's in the "utilities" section (the top-level one). > Hi I should note that the current version has only been checked out on a H8 with ZCON8( Z80 ) and H8-4 Serial board ( as well as H89/90 ). I'm currently working to include the H8 with PAM8( 8080 ) with the H8-5 Cassette/Serial board( I just got the machine running last night ). It should work with a PAM8 and H8-4 but I've not checked this out yet. It is also, only intended for 40 track, single sided, 10 hard sectored disk. The system must have an unaltered H17 ROM or XCON8 ROM. It also needs a couple of K of good RAM starting at 040.000. The PC must be run in DOS without any interrupts running on the selected serial port. I'll add features as needed or assist others in adding such features. Any and all feedback is good. Make sure and actually read the README.TXT file. The sequence for the H8 must be followed or it won't work as expected. It only works with image files. The ones from the web that are of the form *.H8D and are 100K in size seem to work fine. For HDOS disk, leave the volume number to be selected from the image. CP/M and other types may need other special handling. I don't have any of these to play with so I don't know what to expect. You must select a DOS file name before doing a read or write to/from the H8. Use care here, a read from the H8 to a file will overwrite any previous file by that name. If you intend to do a read and you don't get a message stating that it created a new file, you will be overwriting an existing PC DOS file. Of course, this same message when you intended to write to a HDOS disk will not be good either. The tool formats the disk as it writes the disk image so all that is needed is blank disks or disks that you don't care about the data. When reading existing disks, make sure and put a write protect tag on the disk. It is real easy to type a W or get confused about who is reading and who is writing. If the system errors, it may hang. You may need to reboot the PC or the H8 in such a case. You can save a standalone boot image of the bootstrap/loader code so it doesn't have to be re-entered. This disk is not an HDOS disk and unless overwriting a previously completely formatted disk, you can not save its image with this tool. The tool only formats/writes a small piece of track 0 when used to save the bootstrap/loader code. I'm sure you'll find something I haven't mentioned, just let me know. There is some debug/progess information printed at as the program runs. This can help find problems. As I recall, it will read an entire disk, even if it is corrupted ( of course the corrupted data will be garbage ). This may be useful to recover files if the corruption is in the data and not the directory or tables that HDOS uses. I've not checked this feature lately so if someone wants to try this, let me know. Lets see some more images recovered from disks! Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Jun 1 19:32:08 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 19:32:08 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update In-Reply-To: <40BC88FA.6090003@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <000001c44839$0a522d70$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> I've moved both the articles Carroll uploaded - the HDOS diskette info - very helpful for the issues at hand - is in a new directory called "supplemental" in the software area. The article detailing Pat Swayne's H8/Z80 conversion is in another directory, also called "supplemental" in the hardware area. Both of these new directories are intended, as the name implies, for non-Heath produced material relevant to the topic areas. This includes data sheets, reprints, reference charts, etc. Thanks to everyone for keeping sebhc hopping! Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Carroll Waddell > Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 8:48 AM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update > > > Dave, > I'm going to scan the HDOS infor and upload it. Jack thought several > people would like to have it. > Actually, as hot as it is here, I'd like to deliver it to you > personally. Hope it's cooler where you live. > CEW > > Dave Dunfield wrote: > > >At 23:03 31/05/2004 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > >>Dave, > >>I was just looking at an article in the July 1981 edition of > >>microcomputing titled, "Dissecting the HDOS Diskette." I > don't have any > >>idea if it will help you or not, but if you want it, and > give me your > >>address, I'll make a copy of it for you. Also, are you > looking for the > >>H17 controller card, or the diskette drive and enclosure? > >>Carroll > >> > >> > > > >Hi Carroll, > > > >This sounds like it would be VERY useful - please do send a copy: > > > > Dave Dunfield > > 115 Manion Heights Cres. > > RR#2 Carp, Ontario Canada > > K0A 1L0 > > > >I will scan it and make it available to everyone. > > > >Yes - I would like very much to find an H17 card. The drive and > >enclosure would be nice as well, although I do have a stack > of drives > >that should work (the H17 drive is a standard 5.25" non-HD > drive right? > > > >Regards, > >Dave > > > > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Jun 1 19:37:59 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 19:37:59 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] My H8 Systems In-Reply-To: <200406011836.LAA26721@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <000101c44839$db6e6f40$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> It > was late so I didn't get a chance to play with my H89LDR code > and the H8-5 board. In any case, I now have two H8's up and > running. Yaaaayy!! Dwight > Amen! -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 1 19:41:52 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 00:41:52 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] Blanks check... Message-ID: Eric says: >It looks like the 80-track single sided image is slightly busted. >Although the label on track 9 is well-formed, and even >the ascii description says "1 side", the (int) that matters >says 2. By the "(int) that matters" do you mean the label byte known as LAB.VFL? If so, that's a bit field, and bit 0 indicates two-sided, bit 1 indicates 96 TPI (or 80 cylinder). So the value "2" would mean "one-sided 80-cylinder". Please take a look again, and if you're still sure it's wrong, please tell me the exact byte(s) in error (by symbolic name or by offset into the sector). >This, coupled with the 80 tracks and group size >of 4 violates the 200 group rule and breaks. Yup, the >fstool needs a check for this... How did you compute this? If you divide LAB.SIZ (800) by LAB.SPG (4) you get 200 - the number of groups. Anyway, please check both things once more and let me know... Cheers, - Steven _________________________________________________________________ Getting married? Find great tips, tools and the latest trends at MSN Life Events. http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 1 19:55:54 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 00:55:54 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] fstool Message-ID: >I took the liberty of trying Steven's blanks with fstool, Any chance of posting it? _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page ? FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 1 19:54:42 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 00:54:42 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update Message-ID: > - Also, I didn't know how the binary represents multiple > sides. Using (side,track,sector) is it: Having another side doubles the number of tracks. The side isn't included in the sector address. So the physical arrangement is unimportant in the file (but the emulator needs to keep is straight to handle the side select control bit). In fact, the only significant difference between the 1s80t blank and the 2s40t is LAB.VFL. (But I also gave then different labels and volume numbers) - Steven _________________________________________________________________ Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter to win a trip to NY http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 1 21:01:31 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 19:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H17 disassembly or listing Message-ID: <200406020201.TAA26977@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Has anyone done a complete disassembly with comments on the H17? I've started one but it needs a lot of work yet. I don't want to just repeat what someone else has done. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From rgroh at swbell.net Tue Jun 1 21:05:24 2004 From: rgroh at swbell.net (Bob And Bettina Groh) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 21:05:24 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Miscellaneous comments plus word about Z-47 on Ebay Message-ID: <40BD35E4.2080808@swbell.net> I've been enjoying the stream of emails as people re-discover their H-8's. And such a parade of names that I recognize from the good old days when I worked at Heathkit and wasted many a long hour playing with my H-89 et al. If I had the time, I sure would dig out my remaining H-89 and all the software and stuff I have for it. Not to mention the couple of H/Z-100s still hidding in the attic store room. Maybe later after I retire. Right now way to busy. Sigh. Oh, I was plugging around on eBay tonight and ran across a Zenith Z-47 for sale: if anyone is interested. It had 2 days to go, had one bid at $8 or so, might be good for parts. Not mine or anyone that I know, I might add. I did have a H-47 way back when but traded it in one some other items for my Z-120 way back when. Bob Groh, Blue Springs, MO. -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From gfroberts at adelphia.net Tue Jun 1 21:14:01 2004 From: gfroberts at adelphia.net (Deb and Glenn Roberts) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 22:14:01 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H17 disassembly or listing In-Reply-To: <200406020201.TAA26977@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20040602021358.HRZS21898.mta11.adelphia.net@VAIO> I believe I have a fairly complete and rather well commented one from 20 years ago. But it's on a disk on the H8 itself. I'll dredge it up and post it. Also some articles I wrote for REMark and other mag's back then. One was on the H17 disk structure and ways to save space (REMark v5, issue 2, p. 58+). Give me a few days to track the stuff down... - glenn > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Dwight K. > Elvey > Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 10:02 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: [sebhc] H17 disassembly or listing > > Hi > Has anyone done a complete disassembly with comments on the H17? > I've started one but it needs a lot of work yet. I don't want > to just repeat what someone else has done. > Dwight > > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Jun 1 21:27:31 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 21:27:31 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H17 disassembly or listing In-Reply-To: <200406020201.TAA26977@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <000001c44849$289c7050$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Dwight, It's already in the archive - check out /pub/documents/software/HDOS-2/HOS-1-SL_595-2466-01/ This listing is actually part of the HDOS 2.0 Source Code that Heath published. The source and supporting docs were released to the public domain in 1988; I'm working on getting a copy of the release letter. The listings are a 4-volume set including HDOS, drivers, apps and the ROM. All in all, about 8" thick. I don't intend to scan/post everything, but if you are looking for something specific, let me know. I also have similar source listings for HDOS 1.6 and cassette BASIC. Thanks again Lenny! Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Dwight K. Elvey > Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 9:02 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: [sebhc] H17 disassembly or listing > > > Hi > Has anyone done a complete disassembly with comments on the > H17? I've started one but it needs a lot of work yet. I don't > want to just repeat what someone else has done. Dwight > > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Tue Jun 1 22:20:25 2004 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 23:20:25 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] fstools and other things In-Reply-To: (sp11@hotmail.com) References: Message-ID: <1086054036@rothfus.com> OK - the source for the SVD tools are up at: www.theSVD.com/SVD/app17.tar.gz www.theSVD.com/SVD/app17.zip This is the latest source tree...so it has a couple of "works in progress" but it all pretty-much works. You can find the tosvd.html man-page in there...but not the fstool.html man page...I simply haven't had time to do it yet. The source, though, is fairly explanatory. Take a look at the hastily prepared README.TXT for more info. When I was testing Steven's blanks, I used the following command to get an old .H17 file that is compatible. $ tosvd -s JV1 -o H17 filename > outputfile.h17 This command forced the tool to think of the format as JV1, which is a binary format and spit out H17 format. However, because there is no volume number in the images you'd need to edit the H17 image first line header (you'll see the bad value) and change it to the octal volume number. Then to check/print the directory of the image I used: $ fstool -r -F hdos -f filename I would LOVE to settle on a decent H17 format that people could agree on. It would be a short-order job to create a new format. Regarding the single-sided 80-track image that Steven put up, (removing foot from mouth) he was right. The code in HDOS/label.c was broken and used && where a & should have been when decoding the flags (which is LBA.VFL). How could I have doubted you Steven! ;-) In response to Steven's comment: > Having another side doubles the number of tracks. > The side isn't included in the sector address. HDOS expects the tracks to be organized such that odd tracks are on one side and even on the other. So when you go after the directory track, or the GRT, it will be nice to know that the track you're looking for is in the place you think it is. Or maybe you were just saying that the organization in the image files IS the HDOS organization. That is, track by track independent of where they would have physically resided on the floppy. For those of you reading along, what I mean by the above is that the image was "dumped" (or hand-crafted as may be) track by track instead of side by side. This type of dump would work well in concert with HDOS. Some formats do side by side and some track by track. In other words, in the HDOS format the tracks are laid out: Side 1 Side 2 -------- ---------- Track 0 Track 1 Track 2 Track 3 Track 4 Track 5 ... On other formats (not HDOS) who "somewhat" think of the separate side as another image: Side 1 Side 2 -------- ---------- Track 0 Track 40 Track 1 Track 41 Track 2 Track 42 ... So two OS's looking at the same string of tracks/sectors from a file may interpret them differently if not otherwise instructed. Note that the "physical" layout on the disk is not only (normally) important to the OS interpreting the layout. On most formats, the track number is included in the header of the sector and the OS may barf if it doesn't match what track the OS thinks it is looking at. IMHO it is important to separate the OS on an image/floppy from the physical format. The physical format may not change but the higher-level OS may impose a different interpretation. So there must be a well-known definition of the image-file format... even if that definition is "just like HDOS!" Because another OS (like CP/M) may just think of the format differently). Enough for tonight! Eric -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Tue Jun 1 22:58:56 2004 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 23:58:56 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] fstools and other things In-Reply-To: <1086054036@rothfus.com> (eric@rothfus.com) References: <1086054036@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <1086146534@rothfus.com> Quick note on compilation... Linux - it should just compile "make fstool" for example Windows - a unix-like environment called "cygwin" is expected. Check out www.cygwin.com if you like developing in Linux but travel with a Windows box. It gives you all of the nice things about Linux for your Windows. Binaries - can be had at the www.theSVD.com website. Just download the "control program". The tools are in there. So is the pretty SVD GUI. :-) -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 2 07:29:10 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 05:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] YAEU: Yet Another Emulator Update Message-ID: <200406021229.i52CT9Nq084441@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by mail.toadware.ca with SMTP; 2 Jun 2004 12:54:24 -0000 I have just posted yet another update to the emulator: http://www.dunfield.com/pub/H8.ZIP Changes: 1 - When the /I switch is used, the virtual 8080 CPU will now interpret invalid opcodes exactly the same way as a real 8080 would (ie: NOP, CALL, JMP or RET depending on opcode). 2 - I have removed the hard-coded 40-track limit on the stepper. When you mount a disk image, the emulator will now scan the file to determine the number of tracks and set the stepper limit accordingly for this "drive". *1 The file MUST be an even multiple of tracks (2560 bytes). *2 I have changed the F5/'D' display, which now shows for each drive: tracksRWvol: For example, a 40 track disk image named 'HDOS16' with volume ID 255, mounted Read-only shows as: 40R255:HDOS16 An 80 track disk image named "MYDATA" with volume ID 123, mounted Read-Write shows as: 80W123:MYDATA [I got rid of the '1', '2', '3' indicators, as it's pretty obvious which drive is which] In all cases the volume ID is retrieved from the last sector of the first track (sector 9). STEVEN: Let me know if you get an 80-track image working with this version of the emulator. 3 - I have added a section on SEBHC to the help file - JACK - please confirm that you are happy with it. 4 - I have added acknowlegements for the people who either sent me stuff or provided information over and above what could normally be expected (I wonder who this could be referring to :-) Sorry, I didn't have room for everyone, and my memory isn't all that great - if anyone thinks they should be on the list, please let me know and I'll add another page. Also, if anyone who is listed DOESN'T want to be listed, or doesn't agree with the text, please let me know ASAP - this will be going public on my muesum site sometime this weekend. As always - comments welcome. Regards, Dave Dunfield -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 2 07:54:04 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 05:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update Message-ID: <200406021254.i52Cs4b7084762@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by mail.toadware.ca with SMTP; 2 Jun 2004 13:16:49 -0000 At 09:47 01/06/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Dave, >I'm going to scan the HDOS infor and upload it. Jack thought several >people would like to have it. >Actually, as hot as it is here, I'd like to deliver it to you >personally. Hope it's cooler where you live. >CEW Hi Carroll, Thanks - I'll await it's posting. It's been fairly cool here lately - ranging from as low as 10c (50f) at night to 20c (70f+) in the day - normally we are warmer than this - not really much different than the northern states. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 2 07:54:08 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 05:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update Message-ID: <200406021254.i52Cs4KW084763@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by mail.toadware.ca with SMTP; 2 Jun 2004 13:16:51 -0000 >>I need to understand how HDOS knows what size the drive is. >>If you could give me bootable images for 40-track DS, 80-Track SS >>and 80-track DS, what would help a lot. > >All the size info comes from the label sector. But bootable? Wouldn't >just mountable do? I made up some blanks in various formats (by hand, I >don't actually have a ds, 96-tpi drive) and put them in a new empty-init >section under disk-images. I haven't yet made my fantasy 512-track >megafloppy. :-) > >But be aware these images aren't tested themselves. Maybe Eric's sftool can >help confirm their integrity when it's uploaded. Mounable should be OK - I requested bootable, because if I could boot it I would be more confident that it's working correctly - I don't really have much in applications to read/write in HDOS (I suppose I could write a BASIC program). >>[I'll bet this is one reason why INIT doesn't work - I don't >> currently accept data for sector headers, and would therefore >> not return the right volume id after an init - I'll have to >> check into this] > >No, it never gets that far .. the message "Wrong type of media ...". >indicates that initial media tests (involving index hole timing) didn't >pass. Could you give me all the gory details of exactly what it is looking for an exactly how it is performing the timing ... ? This is likely to be very tricky to emulate in the simulator. Currently, the simulator is using a "trick" to allow the disk timing to work for any virtual CPU speed (not counting the software delay loop in HDOS 2.0) - that is it uses the I/O events to the disk port to adjust the timing of the virtual disk rotation - it keeps in step with the software driver's accesses in order to present the right thing at the right time no matter how fast the VCPU is running - this is likely to break in the init code if it is doing a separate timing of sector hole index pulses. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Jun 2 07:58:51 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 07:58:51 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update In-Reply-To: <200406021254.i52Cs4b7084762@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <000001c448a1$5aac6ac0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> It's in documents\software\supplemental - and only 800K! > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Dave Dunfield > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 7:54 AM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update > > > At 09:47 01/06/2004 -0400, you wrote: > >Dave, > >I'm going to scan the HDOS infor and upload it. Jack thought several > >people would like to have it. > >Actually, as hot as it is here, I'd like to deliver it to you > >personally. Hope it's cooler where you live. > >CEW > > Hi Carroll, > > Thanks - I'll await it's posting. > It's been fairly cool here lately - ranging from as low as > 10c (50f) at night to 20c (70f+) in the day - normally we are > warmer than this - not really much different than the northern states. > > Regards, > Dave > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From me at patswayne.com Wed Jun 2 09:18:25 2004 From: me at patswayne.com (Pat Swayne) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 10:18:25 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update In-Reply-To: <40BC8839.4040200@sc.rr.com> References: <000601c44786$cf6e7950$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> <40BC8839.4040200@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20040602101116.02da7548@mail.patswayne.com> CEW wrote: >I just posted an article by Pat Swain on a Z80 upgrade. "Swayne", actually. I had found that article and was going to scan it myself, but you beat me to the punch. I have a correction, though. In the caption under the schematic, change the word "isn't" to "is". I remember making that correction when the magazine sent me the proofs, but they missed it. BTW, I later etched a printed circuit for the mod, which served me for the rest of the time I used my H8. I never did buy Heath's Z80 board. -- Pat -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 2 12:24:52 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 17:24:52 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] fstools and other things Message-ID: > $ tosvd -s JV1 -o H17 filename > outputfile.h17 >However, because there is no volume number in the images >you'd need to edit the H17 image first line header Actually, all images do contain the volume number. The following patch will cause it to be recognised and dumped properly: --- old/jv.c Tue Jun 1 21:23:47 2004 +++ jv.c Wed Jun 2 12:04:58 2004 @@ -564,0 +565,3 @@ + /* get HDOS volume number -sp */ + floppy->volume = floppy->side[0][0].sector[9].data[0]; + > $ fstool -r -F hdos -f filename It would be cool if "JV1" could be used as the format here, and then you could skip the conversion step. >(removing foot from mouth) he was right. How could I have doubted you >Steven! ;-) Just don't do it again! :-) > > Having another side doubles the number of tracks. > > The side isn't included in the sector address. >IMHO it is important to separate the OS on an >image/floppy from the physical format. The physical >format may not change but the higher-level OS may >impose a different interpretation. Yea, but that's a matter of concern for emulators, but not for the file format. It doesn't matter if track 40 is the first track on side 2, or in the middle of side 1; in either case, it will follow "track 39" in the image file. That's why the only significant difference between 1s80t.h8d and 2s40t.h8d is the LAB.VFL byte. > Linux - it should just compile "make fstool" for example Hmm. Well, it does ... AFTER you remove all the cr's from the line endings. :-) Also, just plain "make" ALMOST works .. but an intermediate product gets deleted before it's needed. Members of this list may also enjoy the following patch: --- old/fstool.c Tue Jun 1 21:23:47 2004 +++ fstool.c Wed Jun 2 11:19:29 2004 @@ -66 +66 @@ - char *fs_type = fs_types[0]; + char *fs_type = fs_types[4]; /* Make hdos default! -sp */ Cheers, - Steven _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee? Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Wed Jun 2 13:06:35 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 14:06:35 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20040602101116.02da7548@mail.patswayne.com> References: <000601c44786$cf6e7950$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> <40BC8839.4040200@sc.rr.com> <6.1.0.6.2.20040602101116.02da7548@mail.patswayne.com> Message-ID: <40BE172B.1040701@sc.rr.com> Sorry about that Pat. I suppose that's what I get trying to use my own "memory". It has more glitches than an old computer, actually; I am an old computer. CEW Pat Swayne wrote: > CEW wrote: > >> I just posted an article by Pat Swain on a Z80 upgrade. > > > "Swayne", actually. I had found that article and was going to scan it > myself, but you beat me to the punch. I have a correction, though. In > the caption under the schematic, change the word "isn't" to "is". I > remember making that correction when the magazine sent me the proofs, > but they missed it. > BTW, I later etched a printed circuit for the mod, which served me for > the rest of the time I used my H8. I never did buy Heath's Z80 board. > -- Pat > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Wed Jun 2 13:03:53 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 14:03:53 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update In-Reply-To: <200406021254.i52Cs4b7084762@gatekeeper.evocative.com> References: <200406021254.i52Cs4b7084762@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <40BE1689.8070708@sc.rr.com> Dave, Jack has put the article in the archieve. CEW Dave Dunfield wrote: >At 09:47 01/06/2004 -0400, you wrote: > > >>Dave, >>I'm going to scan the HDOS infor and upload it. Jack thought several >>people would like to have it. >>Actually, as hot as it is here, I'd like to deliver it to you >>personally. Hope it's cooler where you live. >>CEW >> >> > >Hi Carroll, > >Thanks - I'll await it's posting. >It's been fairly cool here lately - ranging from as low as 10c (50f) at >night to 20c (70f+) in the day - normally we are warmer than this - not >really much different than the northern states. > >Regards, >Dave > > From eric at rothfus.com Wed Jun 2 13:53:18 2004 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 14:53:18 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] fstools and other things In-Reply-To: (sp11@hotmail.com) References: Message-ID: <1086189936@rothfus.com> Man, Steven, you're quick. Thanks for the code snippets, though philosophically (and I hate it when OTHER people say that :-) getting the HDOS volume number out of the file-system within the reading of physical image is a no-no...particularly when dealing with CP/M images. We still need to put it in the image format somewhere. > It would be cool if "JV1" could be used as the format here, and then > you could skip the conversion step. JV1 was the first format supported in the TRS-80 world and the first one supported in the SVD ('cause it was easy :-). It was quickly deprecated in favor of JV3 and DMK because it had too little information in it. It couldn't distinguish double density, it couldn't deal with other WD179x markings, it couldn't deal with interleave changes (particularly problematic in CP/M), it couldn't deal with copy protection, it couldn't distinguish CoCo files, etc. In essence, it's a pretty bad "format" and is the fall-back for the SVD. One thing I would like to do, however, is to create a "generic" image mechanism that would allow configurable loading of generic images. For example: $ fstool -g 40,10,H17 ...etc... Where the "-g" indicates a binary image with 40 tracks, 10 sectors, and H17-style data encoding. There are many ways to do this...I just haven't run into the need with the other formats. Normally, a distinguishable format will give you enough data to set these parameters automagically...and that's still what we should do. > Just don't do it again! :-) I've learned my lesson! > Yea, but that's a matter of concern for emulators, but not for the > file format. It doesn't matter if track 40 is the first track on > side 2, or in the middle of side 1; in either case, it will follow > "track 39" in the image file. Again, it's simply a "definition" issue. A format should be well defined. Personally I think it should also "closely resemble" the physical media. In the TRS-80 world there's a rather nifty PC-card called the Cat-weasel (nice name I know) that will dump a floppy image verbatim into a file. This image preserves enough data to be able to allow even copy-protected floppy images to operate. It makes no attempt to "organize" the data beyond the floppy organization. That is, the file "looks" like a floppy. The TRS-80 emulators simply know the format of this file ("DMK" by-the-way) and use it as if it were a real floppy. I'm not saying, though, that the H8 emulators should change to support DMK-like flexibility...I don't think it is necessary. Just so the format is well known. > That's why the only significant difference between 1s80t.h8d and 2s40t.h8d > is the LAB.VFL byte. Yup, the file simply contains a track by track image of the floppy. Which just so happens to go from side to side for HDOS. And if the emulator knows that, then we're quite cool. Floppy image dumpers need to know it too. > Members of this list may also enjoy the following patch: > ... > + char *fs_type = fs_types[4]; /* Make hdos default! -sp */ OK, no religious changes allowed! :-) (Man, you are quick!) Normally, I change this by re-ordering the files in the Makefile, however. Keep the changes coming! :-) Eric -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 2 16:13:48 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 21:13:48 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] fstools and other things Message-ID: >...getting the HDOS volume number out of the >file-system within the reading of physical image is a >no-no...particularly when dealing with CP/M images. So how do you get the volume number from a cpm image now? >We still need to put it in the image format somewhere. But not for the volume number. To really do it right, that , along with the sector address, would need to be carried separately for every sector. And you'd still have to define these as part of a sector prefix, which exists separate from the data, with a "tunnel" area in between. >...the Cat-weasel (nice name I know) that will dump a floppy image >verbatim into a file. This image preserves enough data to be able to >allow even copy-protected floppy images to operate. It'd be interesting to see if a cat-weasel would properly identify and recreate sector headers and tunnels on an hdos disk. :-) >(Man, you are quick!) Normally, I change this by re-ordering the >files in the Makefile, however. Oops .. I was TOO quick. The makefile trick is nicer. I didn't think to look in there! I un-did that patch in favor of the other method. Cheers, - Steven (with a "v") :-) _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee? Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 2 16:31:15 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 14:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H17 disassembly or listing Message-ID: <200406022131.OAA27714@clulw009.amd.com> Hi jack Thanks, that is what I was looking for. You have to realize that I originally wrote the read/write/format functions of my image transfer code without any listings. I'd like to go back and add the Heath names to many of the variables and routines that I call. Dwight >From: "Jack Rubin" > >Dwight, > >It's already in the archive - check out >/pub/documents/software/HDOS-2/HOS-1-SL_595-2466-01/ >This listing is actually part of the HDOS 2.0 Source Code that Heath >published. The source and supporting docs were released to the public >domain in 1988; I'm working on getting a copy of the release letter. > >The listings are a 4-volume set including HDOS, drivers, apps and the >ROM. All in all, about 8" thick. I don't intend to scan/post everything, >but if you are looking for something specific, let me know. I also have >similar source listings for HDOS 1.6 and cassette BASIC. > >Thanks again Lenny! > >Jack > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Wed Jun 2 17:15:57 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 18:15:57 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] DISKETTES and stuff Message-ID: <40BE519D.3070606@sc.rr.com> Do I remember that someone had bought, or was buying, some new 5 1/4 hard sector diskettes? Also, does anyone know if there was ever a DOS version for the 8080, or was CP/M the closest thing? Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Wed Jun 2 17:18:43 2004 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 18:18:43 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] fstools and other things In-Reply-To: (sp11@hotmail.com) References: Message-ID: <1086212161@rothfus.com> > So how do you get the volume number from a cpm image now? The H17 image format had a volume number in the header. All CP/M disks do have a volume number on them as you point out. However, the "diskdump" utility is pretty stupid about finding the RIGHT volume number for a CP/M disk, trying to look into the label sector for it...yup, the program crashes. > But not for the volume number. To really do it right, that , along > with the sector address, would need to be carried separately for > every sector. And you'd still have to define these as part of a > sector prefix, which exists separate from the data, with a "tunnel" > area in between. Never heard it called a "tunnel" before :-). But, yup, that would be the most "expressive" thing to do. Granted, it is a judgement call, but I didn't think that expressivity was necessary for a Heathkit hard-sector controller image. I asked before, and no one indicated any special disks that would require it. But I feel (again, judgement here) that the volume number is a bit different story. As far as I know, there's only one volume number for an HDOS floppy as well as a CP/M floppy. God knows why the volume number is in the header of every sector. But to accurately represent a disk you have to have SOME volume number, and the number can't be discerned or guessed easily (except for HDOS disks). The track and sector numbers can be fairly easily "guessed" or at least "defined" as "the order in which they appear in the file." > It'd be interesting to see if a cat-weasel would properly identify and > recreate sector headers and tunnels on an hdos disk. :-) I hear that it CAN'T handle hard-sectored disks. However, the soft-sectored HDOS disks could probably be imaged right for both the gaps and data. Note that I should probably post the SVD PIC firmware sooner than later, Steven would probably be able to parse it and offer some help quickly! Currently I'm working on the "write" capability. Not too hard, but takes time. Eric -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 2 17:29:31 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 15:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] DISKETTES and stuff Message-ID: <200406022229.i52MTRJ1095214@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by mail.toadware.ca with SMTP; 2 Jun 2004 23:01:14 -0000 >Also, does anyone know if there was ever a DOS version for the 8080, or >was CP/M the closest thing? >Carroll There were several OS's for the 8080, however MS-DOS or PC-DOS was not one of them - CP/M is probably the closest, as DOS grew from roots in CP/M. My own DMF operating system for the 8080 is available on my web site, source and all - I've toyed with the idea of porting it to the H8, however it does require memory at 0 (system calls are via RST), and my H8 doesn't have a "memory at zero" option. You can however boot it up on my Altair emulator if you want to check it out. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 2 17:29:29 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 15:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] fstools and other things Message-ID: <200406022229.i52MTTju095213@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by mail.toadware.ca with SMTP; 2 Jun 2004 23:01:12 -0000 >But I feel (again, judgement here) that the volume number is a bit >different story. As far as I know, there's only one volume number for >an HDOS floppy as well as a CP/M floppy. God knows why the >volume number is in the header of every sector. It's on every sector, so that the driver can always detect if the disk has been changed without having to seek back to track0 & read the disk header before every operation. (Even on a write, I believe the driver reads the "tunnel" as Steven called it before beginning to write in the data portion (at least that would make sense, as wrong diskette could be detected even on a write) - the only time the sector header should have to be written is during initialization. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Wed Jun 2 18:04:48 2004 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:04:48 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] fstools and other things In-Reply-To: <200406022229.i52MTTju095213@gatekeeper.evocative.com> (message from Dave Dunfield on Wed, 2 Jun 2004 15:29:29 -0700 (PDT)) References: <200406022229.i52MTTju095213@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <1086214684@rothfus.com> > ...It's on every sector, so that the driver can always detect if the disk > has been changed without having to seek back to track0 & read the disk... OOOoooh, that's makes sense. Thanks. So the volume number is somewhat overloaded to indicate "disk change." It seems to confirm, too, that there is only one volume number for a floppy. Does that also explain why track 0 has volume number of zero? Do you know if CP/M drivers for the Heathkit hard-sectored controller do the same thing? Eric -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Wed Jun 2 18:40:29 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:40:29 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] DISKETTES and stuff In-Reply-To: <40BE519D.3070606@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <008a01c448fa$fd23eb30$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Carroll, Diskettes are on order and are expected shortly. I'm not aware of a DOS (that is, an implementation of MS-DOS) for the 8080. I have, however, implemented various DOS-compatible file systems that can read and write DOS floppies. I've gotten them into just a couple K of RAM, but of course, they couldn't run DOS executables. Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Carroll Waddell > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 3:16 PM > To: sebhc at staunch89er.com > Subject: [sebhc] DISKETTES and stuff > > > Do I remember that someone had bought, or was buying, some new 5 1/4 > hard sector diskettes? > Also, does anyone know if there was ever a DOS version for > the 8080, or > was CP/M the closest thing? > Carroll > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 2 19:25:58 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] fstools and other things Message-ID: <200406030025.RAA27820@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Eric J. Rothfus" > >> So how do you get the volume number from a cpm image now? > >The H17 image format had a volume number in the header. All >CP/M disks do have a volume number on them as you point out. >However, the "diskdump" utility is pretty stupid about finding >the RIGHT volume number for a CP/M disk, trying to look into the >label sector for it...yup, the program crashes. Hi Eric This is partly why I added the ability to specify the volume number in my image transfer program. It defaults to looking at sector 9 but one can override this with any volume number. ---snip--- >an HDOS floppy as well as a CP/M floppy. God knows why the >volume number is in the header of every sector. The reasonning was sound. This way they could detect when a disk was swapped before being dismounted. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 2 19:32:27 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] fstools and other things Message-ID: <200406030032.RAA27830@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Eric J. Rothfus" > >> ...It's on every sector, so that the driver can always detect if the disk >> has been changed without having to seek back to track0 & read the disk... > >OOOoooh, that's makes sense. Thanks. > >So the volume number is somewhat overloaded to indicate "disk change." >It seems to confirm, too, that there is only one volume number >for a floppy. Does that also explain why track 0 has volume >number of zero? Hi Eric This way there was a common place to boot from. It is also why most of the boot track is wasted. Dwight > >Do you know if CP/M drivers for the Heathkit hard-sectored controller >do the same thing? I'd suspect that they all use volume 0 but I don't know. The problem is that sector 9 would contain random data. My Fig-Forth disk is like this. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 2 19:58:53 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] My H8 Systems Message-ID: <200406030058.RAA27861@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I've been working on my transfer code for the H8-5 serial boards. I spent most of my time with silly typos and making sure that the pieces all worked with each other. The bootstrap and the main loader code have to know about each other. This is because of the closeness of how these work together. I have to make two passes through the assembler ( when I do it right ) to determine addresses and sizes. I was thinking that the serial port of the H8-5 was most likely compatible with the serial port used to communicate between the H88 board and the H19 of a H89. This would mean that if this worked, one could also use my image transfer with a H88/89/90 that didn't have the serial board. I'll have to look into this. I bought some more RAM's today to repopulate the ones I stripped to get my older H8 working. The parts are the 4Kx1 parts. I wasn't able to find any of the TI parts ( TMS4044 ) but did find some AMD ( AM9044 ) parts. These are kind of rare and are not particularly cheap. I got them for $2.95US. I suspect that they were originally quite a bit more expensive in the H8 days. No wonder most people didn't have full 64K systems. Later Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From Fred11da at aol.com Wed Jun 2 20:28:58 2004 From: Fred11da at aol.com (Fred11da at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 21:28:58 EDT Subject: [sebhc] DISKETTES and stuff Message-ID: <1cd.227ee1d9.2defd8da@aol.com> In a message dated 6/2/04 3:17:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com writes: Also, does anyone know if there was ever a DOS version for the 8080, or was CP/M the closest thing? Carroll -- >> Hello to all and Carroll. I have two cents to add from my very old memory. In the early 1980s I had a Dec (Digital Equipment Corp.) Rainbow floppy disk computer. As I remember I booted with a CPM disk. If I wanted to run something from DOS (Version 1.* ???) I spawned from CPM to a DOS disk. I would have to check but I think the Rainbow used an 8085 chip. Is that close enough to your 8080 request? The Rainbow and software are in boxes somewhere around my house. I will look for them If you think it would be helpful to you. David F. -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Wed Jun 2 20:39:36 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 21:39:36 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] DISKETTES and stuff In-Reply-To: <1cd.227ee1d9.2defd8da@aol.com> References: <1cd.227ee1d9.2defd8da@aol.com> Message-ID: <40BE8158.5080003@sc.rr.com> I'm not sure, but I seem to remember that the main difference between the 8080 and the 8085 was that the 8085 only needed +5 volts. Carroll Fred11da at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 6/2/04 3:17:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com writes: > > Also, does anyone know if there was ever a DOS version for the 8080, or > was CP/M the closest thing? > Carroll > > -- >> >Hello to all and Carroll. > >I have two cents to add from my very old memory. In the early 1980s I had a >Dec (Digital Equipment Corp.) Rainbow floppy disk computer. As I remember >I booted with a CPM disk. If I wanted to run something from DOS (Version 1.* > ???) I >spawned from CPM to a DOS disk. I would have to check but I think the >Rainbow used >an 8085 chip. Is that close enough to your 8080 request? > >The Rainbow and software are in boxes somewhere around my house. I will look >for >them If you think it would be helpful to you. > >David F. >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Thu Jun 3 01:44:49 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 23:44:49 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] DISKETTES and stuff References: <1cd.227ee1d9.2defd8da@aol.com> <40BE8158.5080003@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <40BEC8E1.313C@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > I'm not sure, but I seem to remember that the main difference between > the 8080 and the 8085 was that the 8085 only needed +5 volts. Actually, there are a considerable number of differences between the 8080 and 8085. They aren't even close to being pin-for-pin compatible. About the only thing that is the same is they both have the same instruction set (though even there, the 8085 has several additional instructions). -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Jun 3 05:34:51 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 03:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] DISKETTES and stuff Message-ID: <200406031034.i53AYpwD008788@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by mail.toadware.ca with SMTP; 3 Jun 2004 10:50:11 -0000 >> I'm not sure, but I seem to remember that the main difference between >> the 8080 and the 8085 was that the 8085 only needed +5 volts. > >Actually, there are a considerable number of differences between the >8080 and 8085. They aren't even close to being pin-for-pin compatible. >About the only thing that is the same is they both have the same >instruction set (though even there, the 8085 has several additional >instructions). FWIW/IIRC: The 8080 required three power supplies (+5, -5, +12), and the 8085 needs only +5. The 8080 required a complex clock driving several lines (most people used Intel't 8224 "clock generator"), the 8085 needs only a single block, and can accept a directly connected crystal. The 8080's bus is also complex, requiring the 8228 "system controller" to obtain usable signals. The 8085 uses a simpler multiplexed bus and ALE, requiring only a few latches. The 8085 added four additional hardware interrupt inputs with on-chip decoding and masking - these are the .5 vectors. The 8085 added a pair of single-bit general prurpose on-chip I/O signals (SID and SOD). The 8085 got rid of the SYNC and INTE signals which made it less fun to use with hardware front panels. >From a software point of view, there were almost identical. There were only two new instructions which used previously undefined opcode values. These were SIM and RIM - to set and read the interrupt masks, as well the single I/O bit. It's interesting to note that the undefined opcode executed by HASL8 is RIM (0x20) - this means that it will trash the accumulator on an 8085, and therefore may NOT work the same as on the 8080. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Jun 3 05:34:48 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 03:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] fstools and other things Message-ID: <200406031034.i53AYmV6008787@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by mail.toadware.ca with SMTP; 3 Jun 2004 10:50:10 -0000 >So the volume number is somewhat overloaded to indicate "disk change." >It seems to confirm, too, that there is only one volume number >for a floppy. Does that also explain why track 0 has volume >number of zero? Track 0 has volume ID 0 so that it can always be read - the driver will not complain about a volid mismatch if the ID on the disk is zero. Otherwise, you would need to either have a special driver for reading the header, or "try every id from 0-255" when you do encounter a new disk. >Do you know if CP/M drivers for the Heathkit hard-sectored controller >do the same thing? I have no idea - I hope so, as otherwise the emulator would not work at all (it's "builds in" the sector headers). Steven? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From me at patswayne.com Thu Jun 3 08:31:56 2004 From: me at patswayne.com (Pat Swayne) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:31:56 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] DISKETTES and stuff In-Reply-To: <200406022229.i52MTRJ1095214@gatekeeper.evocative.com> References: <200406022229.i52MTRJ1095214@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20040603092605.030f5cf0@mail.patswayne.com> Carroll and Dave wrote: > >Also, does anyone know if there was ever a DOS version for the 8080, or > >was CP/M the closest thing? > >Carroll > >There were several OS's for the 8080, however MS-DOS or PC-DOS was not >one of them - CP/M is probably the closest, as DOS grew from roots in >CP/M. Actually, HDOS is the "father" of "DOS" (MS-DOS or PC-DOS), Gordon Letwin and Greg Chandler worked for Heath Company and developed HDOS. Then they went to Microsoft and developed MS-DOS. The file system used in MS-DOS (FAT -- File Allocation Table) is based on the HDOS file allocation system, not on the CP/M system. CP/M has the allocation units stored in the directory enties, not in separate parts of the disk, like HDOS and MS-DOS do. -- Pat -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Thu Jun 3 09:20:30 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:20:30 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] DISKETTES and stuff In-Reply-To: <40BEC8E1.313C@earthlink.net> References: <1cd.227ee1d9.2defd8da@aol.com> <40BE8158.5080003@sc.rr.com> <40BEC8E1.313C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40BF33AE.1080402@sc.rr.com> That's true. What I had in mind was that the 8085 could execute 8080 code. CEW Lee Hart wrote: >Carroll Waddell wrote: > > >>I'm not sure, but I seem to remember that the main difference between >>the 8080 and the 8085 was that the 8085 only needed +5 volts. >> >> > >Actually, there are a considerable number of differences between the >8080 and 8085. They aren't even close to being pin-for-pin compatible. >About the only thing that is the same is they both have the same >instruction set (though even there, the 8085 has several additional >instructions). > > From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Jun 3 09:18:34 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 07:18:34 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] DISKETTES and stuff Message-ID: <030604155.26292@webbox.com> these guys may have gone to work for Microsoft, but MS-DOS was based on work done by Tim Paterson from Seattle Computer Products. http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa033099.htm best regards, Steve Thatcher >--- Original Message --- >From: Pat Swayne >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Date: 6/3/04 8:31:56 AM > Carroll and Dave wrote: > >> >Also, does anyone know if there was ever a DOS version for the 8080, or >> >was CP/M the closest thing? >> >Carroll >> >>There were several OS's for the 8080, however MS-DOS or PC-DOS was not >>one of them - CP/M is probably the closest, as DOS grew from roots in >>CP/M. > >Actually, HDOS is the "father" of "DOS" (MS-DOS or PC-DOS), Gordon Letwin >and Greg Chandler worked for Heath Company and developed HDOS. Then they >went to Microsoft and developed MS-DOS. The file system used in MS-DOS (FAT >-- File Allocation Table) is based on the HDOS file allocation system, not >on the CP/M system. CP/M has the allocation units stored in the directory >enties, not in separate parts of the disk, like HDOS and MS-DOS do. >-- Pat > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Jun 3 09:25:38 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 07:25:38 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] DISKETTES and stuff Message-ID: <030604155.26734@webbox.com> yes, it certainly can. best regards, Steve Thatcher >--- Original Message --- >From: Carroll Waddell >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Date: 6/3/04 9:20:30 AM > That's true. What I had in mind was that the 8085 could execute 8080 code. >CEW > >Lee Hart wrote: > >>Carroll Waddell wrote: >> >> >>>I'm not sure, but I seem to remember that the main difference between >>>the 8080 and the 8085 was that the 8085 only needed +5 volts. >>> >>> >> >>Actually, there are a considerable number of differences between the >>8080 and 8085. They aren't even close to being pin-for-pin compatible. >>About the only thing that is the same is they both have the same >>instruction set (though even there, the 8085 has several additional >>instructions). >> >> > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From me at patswayne.com Thu Jun 3 09:25:29 2004 From: me at patswayne.com (Pat Swayne) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:25:29 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] DISKETTES and stuff In-Reply-To: <030604155.26292@webbox.com> References: <030604155.26292@webbox.com> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20040603102400.030e56a0@mail.patswayne.com> Steve wrote: >these guys may have gone to work for Microsoft, but MS-DOS was >based on work done by Tim Paterson from Seattle Computer Products. Yes, but the didn't use the CP/M (or QDOS) file system. They used Letwin's. -- Pat -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Jun 3 09:56:50 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 07:56:50 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] DISKETTES and stuff Message-ID: <030604155.28610@webbox.com> the QDOS file system was FAT because Tim got that from Microsoft which is probably the connection to Gordon Letwin. But, MS-DOS was based on Tim's work... You can always ask Tim... http://www.patersontech.com/Dos/ >--- Original Message --- >From: Pat Swayne >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Date: 6/3/04 9:25:29 AM > Steve wrote: > >>these guys may have gone to work for Microsoft, but MS-DOS was >>based on work done by Tim Paterson from Seattle Computer Products. > >Yes, but the didn't use the CP/M (or QDOS) file system. They used Letwin's. >-- Pat > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From norberto.collado at hp.com Thu Jun 3 10:53:04 2004 From: norberto.collado at hp.com (Collado, Norberto) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 11:53:04 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] DISKETTES and stuff Message-ID: <14013A008AB26E42B1FC18DECDCE212404187841@tayexc14.americas.cpqcorp.net> Hello! The Rainbow from Digital Equipment Corp is based on the Z80 CPU architecture. Norberto -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Fred11da at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 9:29 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] DISKETTES and stuff In a message dated 6/2/04 3:17:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com writes: Also, does anyone know if there was ever a DOS version for the 8080, or was CP/M the closest thing? Carroll -- >> Hello to all and Carroll. I have two cents to add from my very old memory. In the early 1980s I had a Dec (Digital Equipment Corp.) Rainbow floppy disk computer. As I remember I booted with a CPM disk. If I wanted to run something from DOS (Version 1.* ???) I spawned from CPM to a DOS disk. I would have to check but I think the Rainbow used an 8085 chip. Is that close enough to your 8080 request? The Rainbow and software are in boxes somewhere around my house. I will look for them If you think it would be helpful to you. David F. -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From norberto.collado at hp.com Thu Jun 3 11:00:11 2004 From: norberto.collado at hp.com (Collado, Norberto) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 12:00:11 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Hello to all H-8 Users! Message-ID: <14013A008AB26E42B1FC18DECDCE212404187842@tayexc14.americas.cpqcorp.net> Hello! I want to thank Jack Rubin for finding and allowing me to join the H-8 mailing list. I was happy to see that the H-8 spirit is still alive between all of you. The H-8 was my first computer back them. I created the H-8 User's Group for Puerto Rico and we all had a great time sharing information to improved the system performance. We did 3 important projects for the H-8 computer. We designed a 256KBytes Static Board with no wait states, and bank switching technology to improved the system performance. Then we replaced the 8080 CPU with a Z80 board from another company and I was responsible to push it to 10 MHZ. Then last project we did was the Super Buffer I/O board which used a Z80 with 512K bytes of Dynamic RAM to buffer all printing needs. It had a serial input and a serial or parallel output to the printer, a real time clock to keep the system time under H-DOS or CP/M up to date, and the bank switching port to drive the 256KB memory board. I'm sending a picture of it to be posted on the gallery. I still have my H-8 and last time it was power-up was in 1986 after moving from Puerto Rico to Framingham, MA and it has all the improvements that I mentioned; plus a 10 Meg had drive which I will love to upgrade to an IDE drive if someone has done it. Once I unboxed my H-8 I will let you know what goodies I still have. thanks, Norberto Collado AlphaServer Platform Group Hewlett Packard Company 200 Forest Street MRO1-2/K15 Marlboro, MA 01752-3085 Phone: (508) 467-9643 Fax: (508) 467-4503 norberto.collado at hp.com From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 3 12:23:56 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 10:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Image Transfer program almost there Message-ID: <200406031723.KAA28474@clulw009.amd.com> Hi All I tried my transfer program last night and I got it to work, mostly. It has a bug but I have a work around. First, is there anyone that is waiting, desperately for the image transfer for the H8-5 setup? If so, I can release what I have tomorrow with instructions. That way it would be available over the weekend. If not, I'd like to fix the bug so it will work without the extra problems. This bug was noticed on the H8-4 setup but it didn't cause any troubles if the sequence I put in the README.TXT file was followed. It is a funny one. With the XCON8, if I reset the system before the initial disk access attempt times out, it exhibits the same problem. With the PAM8, there is no timeout. I need to have the H17 attempt a read at the start to get variables setup and in the case of the XCON8 to load the H17 code from ROM to RAM. This means that one starts an access to the disk with no disk in the drive. For the XCON8 and H89, it times out and then a reset allows one to run my bootstrap code. For the PAM8, one has to reset while the drive is still accessing, because there is no time out. Here is what it does. I reset and start my bootstrap code. When the PC side starts the transfer of the main code ( I'm not sure how far it gets ), the H8 hangs with the interrupts turned off. This means no display and only a reset will recover the front panel. I can see that the bootstrap received the data from the PC and transferred control to the main program because the last instruction in the bootstrap ( a PCHL ) is overwritten by a NOP ( normal operation ). I put the PCHL back and restart both the bootstrap and the PC. This time it works fine. I'm able to transfer images without issues. There is something in the disk system that I need to be initializing or modifying that gets reset the first time so that the second time will work. This same thing is normally reset by the timeout in both of the H89 and the XCON8. It seems to get reset or modified by my main code as well before it hangs because the next time it works fine. In any case, I'll be looking into this problem this weekend. It works now but is messy. If someone needs it this weekend, I can send what I have now, because it is useable. I'd need to update the README.TXT. If it isn't needed right away, I'll work on it and get a good one available, hopefully by Monday. The one currently on the web page works with the XCON8/H8-4 and the H89 and H/Z90 as is. I suspect that the new code would work with the XCON8/H8-5 but I've not checked this out yet. I don't think it has anything to do with the difference between the 8251 and the 8250 because, under that same conditions it exhibits the same behavior. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Jun 3 17:42:35 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:42:35 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Hello to all H-8 Users! In-Reply-To: <14013A008AB26E42B1FC18DECDCE212404187842@tayexc14.americas.cpqcorp.net> Message-ID: <000001c449bc$10d99230$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> I've posted a photo of Norberto's Super-Buffer in a new directory under documents called "pictures" - take a look and salivate! Jack BTW, if anybody else has photos of neat stuff (Bob Hinnard ;>)), please upload them and let me know. > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Collado, Norberto > Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 11:00 AM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: [sebhc] Hello to all H-8 Users! > > > Hello! > > I want to thank Jack Rubin for finding and allowing me to > join the H-8 mailing list. I was happy to see that the H-8 > spirit is still alive between all of you. The H-8 was my > first computer back them. I created the H-8 User's Group for > Puerto Rico and we all had a great time sharing information > to improved the system performance. We did 3 important > projects for the H-8 computer. We designed a 256KBytes Static > Board with no wait states, and bank switching technology to > improved the system performance. Then we replaced the 8080 > CPU with a Z80 board from another company and I was > responsible to push it to 10 MHZ. Then last project we did > was the Super Buffer I/O board which used a Z80 with 512K > bytes of Dynamic RAM to buffer all printing needs. It had a > serial input and a serial or parallel output to the printer, > a real time clock to keep the system time under H-DOS or CP/M > up to date, and the bank switching port to drive the 256KB > memory board. I'm sending a picture of it to be posted on the > gallery. > > I still have my H-8 and last time it was power-up was in > 1986 after moving from Puerto Rico to Framingham, MA and it > has all the improvements that I mentioned; plus a 10 Meg had > drive which I will love to upgrade to an IDE drive if someone > has done it. Once I unboxed my H-8 I will let you know what > goodies I still have. > > thanks, > > Norberto Collado > AlphaServer Platform Group > Hewlett Packard Company > 200 Forest Street MRO1-2/K15 > Marlboro, MA 01752-3085 > Phone: (508) 467-9643 > Fax: (508) 467-4503 > norberto.collado at hp.com > > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 3 17:46:42 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 15:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Looking for Red display cover Message-ID: <200406032246.PAA28752@clulw009.amd.com> Hi If anyone has a H8 chassis that they are scrapping, I'm looking for the red plastic cover for the display. I could also use one of the 7 segement LED's. Thanks Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 3 18:28:37 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 23:28:37 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] DISKETTES and stuff Message-ID: > >Do you know if CP/M drivers for the Heathkit hard-sectored controller > >do the same thing? >I'd suspect that they all use volume 0 but I don't know. That seems to be what I recall. Admittedly, I worked much more extensively with HDOS. So you'd need to know a disk is CPM to emulate it (maybe call it h8c?). But before you'd need to worry about that, the emulator would need to handlle the xcon memory swap i/o port control. Also, I think CPM was much more commonly used on H37's and 47's. >From: Pat Swayne >Actually, HDOS is the "father" of "DOS" (MS-DOS or PC-DOS), Gordon Letwin >and Greg Chandler ... went to Microsoft and developed MS-DOS. Then, Steve Thatcher said: >these guys may have gone to work for Microsoft, but MS-DOS was >based on work done by Tim Paterson from Seattle Computer Products. Yea, that's what I recall also. Letwin may have hacked on DOS, but Microsoft bought it from Paterson (for a steal, if I remember). Chandler was still at Heath well after MS-DOS was out and had gone through several revisions. (I didn't even know he ever went to Microsoft). - Steven P.S. I added a little gizmo named "hlab.exe" to the utilities .. it just prints out the label sector info from a disk image (h8d). _________________________________________________________________ Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter to win a trip to NY http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com Fri Jun 4 09:11:48 2004 From: RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com (West, Ronald S.) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 10:11:48 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Hello to all H-8 Users! Message-ID: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9C89@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Collado, Norberto said: > I still have my H-8 and last time it was power-up was in > 1986 after moving from Puerto Rico to Framingham, MA and it > has all the improvements that I mentioned; plus a 10 Meg had > drive which I will love to upgrade to an IDE drive if someone > has done it. Once I unboxed my H-8 I will let you know what > goodies I still have. Norberto, I looked at the super buffer board and that is way cool. You mention above that you had a 10 Meg drive attached also. What O/S was used to access that drive? Was HDOS able to see and use the whole thing? I am currently working on an IDE interface for the H-8. Development has been slow for a while due to other things going on. Trying to use original design techniques and the same logic used on the original boards to keep it close to what might have come out of Benton Harbor (not sure if that has a lot of value but it sounds good ). Thought of using a PAL to decrease the number of IC's on board but I know most folks don't have the means to program one of those, so am sticking to discreet IC's and will see what the chip count is when I am done. Ron -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Fri Jun 4 09:25:05 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 10:25:05 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Hello to all H-8 Users! In-Reply-To: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9C89@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> References: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9C89@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Message-ID: <40C08641.1040508@sc.rr.com> Ronald, Now that's something I would like to see. H8-IDE Carroll West, Ronald S. wrote: >Collado, Norberto said: > > >> I still have my H-8 and last time it was power-up was in >>1986 after moving from Puerto Rico to Framingham, MA and it >>has all the improvements that I mentioned; plus a 10 Meg had >>drive which I will love to upgrade to an IDE drive if someone >>has done it. Once I unboxed my H-8 I will let you know what >>goodies I still have. >> >> > >Norberto, > >I looked at the super buffer board and that is way cool. You mention above >that you had a 10 Meg drive attached also. What O/S was used to access that >drive? Was HDOS able to see and use the whole thing? > >I am currently working on an IDE interface for the H-8. Development has been >slow for a while due to other things going on. Trying to use original design >techniques and the same logic used on the original boards to keep it close >to what might have come out of Benton Harbor (not sure if that has a lot of >value but it sounds good ). Thought of using a PAL to decrease the >number of IC's on board but I know most folks don't have the means to >program one of those, so am sticking to discreet IC's and will see what the >chip count is when I am done. > >Ron >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Jun 4 09:54:36 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 07:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8-IDE In-Reply-To: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9C89@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Message-ID: <20040604145436.67296.qmail@web50207.mail.yahoo.com> > Norberto, > > I looked at the super buffer board and that is way > cool. You mention above > that you had a 10 Meg drive attached also. What O/S > was used to access that > drive? Was HDOS able to see and use the whole thing? > > I am currently working on an IDE interface for the > H-8. Development has been > slow for a while due to other things going on. > Trying to use original design > techniques and the same logic used on the original > boards to keep it close > to what might have come out of Benton Harbor (not > sure if that has a lot of > value but it sounds good ). Thought of using a > PAL to decrease the > number of IC's on board but I know most folks don't > have the means to > program one of those, so am sticking to discreet > IC's and will see what the > chip count is when I am done. > > Ron Ron, Just (as usual) my $.02 but I think a new design should take advantage of new technologies, as for example Carroll's 2-chip 64K board (and yes, I _will_ get one of my org-0 boxes running Real Soon Now and do some testing on that board). Reducing chip count, decreasing power drain and increasing reliability seem like important design goals. If I introduce a "modern" board into my system, I'd hope that it will be rock solid and not the source of new problems. The only reason my 56K system is working is because it has a 32K x 8 RAM board - now that it's up and running I can at least attempt to troubleshoot my stack of 8, 12, and 16K boards. Besides, PALs are certainly part of the '80s design vocabularly. Just try to find a part that's easily sourced and affordable! (I'm trying to find 82S100s for a GIMIX system - so far, only one quote of $18 each and not even sure that they are really available). SEBHC can easily function as a code repository and distribution outlet for programmed PALs. Jack -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From norberto.collado at hp.com Fri Jun 4 10:29:58 2004 From: norberto.collado at hp.com (Collado, Norberto) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 11:29:58 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Hello to all H-8 Users! Message-ID: <14013A008AB26E42B1FC18DECDCE212404187849@tayexc14.americas.cpqcorp.net> Hello Ron, If I recall properly my H-8 was booting CP/M and H-DOS from the 10 meg hard drive. It was using the SASI interface card from Heathkit to a controller than converted from SASI protocol to MFM format. SASI was replaced by SCSI. An alternate option will be to find a converter from IDE to SCSI (http://www.provantage.com/buy-7ADDO13U-ide-scsi-converter-win32-dos-lin ux-mac-addonics-adaec7726h-shopping.htm) and update H-DOS or CP/M to handle it. I think it will be easier to use your design. If you can use a single PAL for your design that will be great! I will loved to upgrade to an IDE to keep the system going, because eventually my MFM disk drive will stop working and then will be back to floppies again. I will need to put together my H-8 to give you more information and changes we did back them to the OS to support the MFM 10 Meg hard drives. Norberto -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of West, Ronald S. Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 10:12 AM To: 'sebhc at sebhc.org' Subject: RE: [sebhc] Hello to all H-8 Users! Collado, Norberto said: > I still have my H-8 and last time it was power-up was in > 1986 after moving from Puerto Rico to Framingham, MA and it > has all the improvements that I mentioned; plus a 10 Meg had > drive which I will love to upgrade to an IDE drive if someone > has done it. Once I unboxed my H-8 I will let you know what > goodies I still have. Norberto, I looked at the super buffer board and that is way cool. You mention above that you had a 10 Meg drive attached also. What O/S was used to access that drive? Was HDOS able to see and use the whole thing? I am currently working on an IDE interface for the H-8. Development has been slow for a while due to other things going on. Trying to use original design techniques and the same logic used on the original boards to keep it close to what might have come out of Benton Harbor (not sure if that has a lot of value but it sounds good ). Thought of using a PAL to decrease the number of IC's on board but I know most folks don't have the means to program one of those, so am sticking to discreet IC's and will see what the chip count is when I am done. Ron -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com Fri Jun 4 11:07:53 2004 From: RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com (West, Ronald S.) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 12:07:53 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8-IDE Message-ID: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9C8A@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Jack, Thanks for the $.02, now I have $.04 . I agree with the idea of making it reliable. Not going to go *that* far back in time. If pushed I will use HC logic vs LS to lower the power requirements. As far as PAL's. From a hobyist standpoint I never liked the darn things as you can't tell whats inside and you need a programmer ($) to mess with them. Have used them in professional designs as they have numerous advantages, previously mentioned. Will keep everyone posted on the IDE project. Ron > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Jack Rubin > Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 10:55 AM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: [sebhc] H8-IDE > > > > Norberto, > > > > I looked at the super buffer board and that is way > > cool. You mention above > > that you had a 10 Meg drive attached also. What O/S > > was used to access that > > drive? Was HDOS able to see and use the whole thing? > > > > I am currently working on an IDE interface for the > > H-8. Development has been > > slow for a while due to other things going on. > > Trying to use original design > > techniques and the same logic used on the original > > boards to keep it close > > to what might have come out of Benton Harbor (not > > sure if that has a lot of > > value but it sounds good ). Thought of using a > > PAL to decrease the > > number of IC's on board but I know most folks don't > > have the means to > > program one of those, so am sticking to discreet > > IC's and will see what the > > chip count is when I am done. > > > > Ron > > Ron, > > Just (as usual) my $.02 but I think a new design > should take advantage of new technologies, as for > example Carroll's 2-chip 64K board (and yes, I _will_ > get one of my org-0 boxes running Real Soon Now and do > some testing on that board). Reducing chip count, > decreasing power drain and increasing reliability seem > like important design goals. If I introduce a "modern" > board into my system, I'd hope that it will be rock > solid and not the source of new problems. The only > reason my 56K system is working is because it has a > 32K x 8 RAM board - now that it's up and running I can > at least attempt to troubleshoot my stack of 8, 12, > and 16K boards. > > Besides, PALs are certainly part of the '80s design > vocabularly. Just try to find a part that's easily sourced > and affordable! (I'm trying to find 82S100s for a GIMIX > system - so far, only one quote of $18 each and not even sure > that they are really available). SEBHC can easily function as > a code repository and distribution outlet for programmed PALs. > > Jack > > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com Fri Jun 4 11:12:10 2004 From: RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com (West, Ronald S.) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 12:12:10 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Hello to all H-8 Users! Message-ID: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9C8B@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Norberto, Would be interested in hearing what modifications were made to the OS to accommodate the 10 Meg drive. Might be interesting to see the driver for that device also. Thanks, Ron > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Collado, Norberto > Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 11:30 AM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: RE: [sebhc] Hello to all H-8 Users! > > > Hello Ron, > > If I recall properly my H-8 was booting CP/M and H-DOS > from the 10 meg hard drive. It was using the SASI interface > card from Heathkit to a controller than converted from SASI > protocol to MFM format. SASI was replaced by SCSI. An > alternate option will be to find a converter from IDE to SCSI > (http://www.provantage.com/buy-7ADDO13U-ide-scsi-converter-win > 32-dos-lin > ux-mac-addonics-adaec7726h-shopping.htm) and update H-DOS or > CP/M to handle it. > > I think it will be easier to use your design. If you > can use a single PAL for your design that will be great! I > will loved to upgrade to an IDE to keep the system going, > because eventually my MFM disk drive will stop working and > then will be back to floppies again. I will need to put > together my H-8 to give you more information and changes we > did back them to the OS to support the MFM 10 Meg hard drives. > > Norberto -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 4 11:47:01 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 09:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] RAM testing, was: H8-IDE Message-ID: <200406041647.JAA29470@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jack Rubin" ---snip--- > The only >reason my 56K system is working is because it has a >32K x 8 RAM board - now that it's up and running I can >at least attempt to troubleshoot my stack of 8, 12, >and 16K boards. > Hi Jack When you place these in the machine, leave a memory gap between the end of the 32K board and the board under test ( assuming you'll use the H17 memory test at 030.003 ). Just reset the HL and DE registers before continuing with the test to match the board addressing. ( HL= start and DE = end ) Switch back to the BC register before hitting the GO key. The test needs to run the BC from 0 to 377 to make a complete bit pass. If the board is socketed, move suspect RAMs to the LSB position to save time. The LSB's are tested most often and will fail early in the test if bad. If you place the addressing as continuous memory, the monitor may fail because it likes to put the stack at the end of contiguous memory. Placing the memory gap allows the monitor to run in clean memory as well as saving you about 5+ mins to test 32K plus your board under test. I found that Anchor Electronics has AM6044 chips as well as 2147 and 61C47 chips ( I think these will also work ). These are all 4Kx1 chips, similar to the TMS4044 chips used by Heathkit. They all cost about $3.00 ea from Anchor. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 4 11:55:01 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 09:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Hello to all H-8 Users! Message-ID: <200406041655.JAA29477@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Collado, Norberto" > >Hello Ron, > > If I recall properly my H-8 was booting CP/M and H-DOS from the >10 meg hard drive. It was using the SASI interface card from Heathkit to >a controller than converted from SASI protocol to MFM format. SASI was >replaced by SCSI. An alternate option will be to find a converter from >IDE to SCSI >(http://www.provantage.com/buy-7ADDO13U-ide-scsi-converter-win32-dos-lin >ux-mac-addonics-adaec7726h-shopping.htm) and update H-DOS or CP/M to >handle it. > > I think it will be easier to use your design. If you can use a >single PAL for your design that will be great! I will loved to upgrade >to an IDE to keep the system going, because eventually my MFM disk drive >will stop working and then will be back to floppies again. I will need >to put together my H-8 to give you more information and changes we did >back them to the OS to support the MFM 10 Meg hard drives. Hi One might consider taking a MFM controller card from old XT machines and making a simple adapter to the H-8 buss. I did something similar for my NC-4000 processor board ( A Forth chip ). These controllers need no interrupts or 8 to 16 bit registers like the IDE needs. The control code is almost identical to the IDE that was for the most part an extension of the MFM controllers. Most have EPROM sockets if one wanted to have boot code and such. Dwight > >Norberto > >-----Original Message----- >From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of West, Ronald >S. >Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 10:12 AM >To: 'sebhc at sebhc.org' >Subject: RE: [sebhc] Hello to all H-8 Users! > > >Collado, Norberto said: >> I still have my H-8 and last time it was power-up was in >> 1986 after moving from Puerto Rico to Framingham, MA and it >> has all the improvements that I mentioned; plus a 10 Meg had >> drive which I will love to upgrade to an IDE drive if someone >> has done it. Once I unboxed my H-8 I will let you know what >> goodies I still have. > >Norberto, > >I looked at the super buffer board and that is way cool. You mention >above that you had a 10 Meg drive attached also. What O/S was used to >access that drive? Was HDOS able to see and use the whole thing? > >I am currently working on an IDE interface for the H-8. Development has >been slow for a while due to other things going on. Trying to use >original design techniques and the same logic used on the original >boards to keep it close to what might have come out of Benton Harbor >(not sure if that has a lot of value but it sounds good ). Thought >of using a PAL to decrease the number of IC's on board but I know most >folks don't have the means to program one of those, so am sticking to >discreet IC's and will see what the chip count is when I am done. > >Ron >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From norberto.collado at hp.com Fri Jun 4 11:59:43 2004 From: norberto.collado at hp.com (Collado, Norberto) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 12:59:43 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Hello to all H-8 Users! Message-ID: <14013A008AB26E42B1FC18DECDCE21240418784A@tayexc14.americas.cpqcorp.net> Ron, As soon I get to the system, I will let you know. I was just browsing the web and there is a simple Z80 to IDE schematic using a PAL (Poll I/O) with the source code. http://home.swipnet.se/~w-68269/ide/ide.htm Norberto -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of West, Ronald S. Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 12:12 PM To: 'sebhc at sebhc.org' Subject: RE: [sebhc] Hello to all H-8 Users! Norberto, Would be interested in hearing what modifications were made to the OS to accommodate the 10 Meg drive. Might be interesting to see the driver for that device also. Thanks, Ron > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Collado, Norberto > Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 11:30 AM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: RE: [sebhc] Hello to all H-8 Users! > > > Hello Ron, > > If I recall properly my H-8 was booting CP/M and H-DOS > from the 10 meg hard drive. It was using the SASI interface > card from Heathkit to a controller than converted from SASI > protocol to MFM format. SASI was replaced by SCSI. An > alternate option will be to find a converter from IDE to SCSI > (http://www.provantage.com/buy-7ADDO13U-ide-scsi-converter-win > 32-dos-lin > ux-mac-addonics-adaec7726h-shopping.htm) and update H-DOS or > CP/M to handle it. > > I think it will be easier to use your design. If you > can use a single PAL for your design that will be great! I > will loved to upgrade to an IDE to keep the system going, > because eventually my MFM disk drive will stop working and > then will be back to floppies again. I will need to put > together my H-8 to give you more information and changes we > did back them to the OS to support the MFM 10 Meg hard drives. > > Norberto -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 4 12:33:31 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 10:33:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Image Transfer program almost there Message-ID: <200406041733.KAA29539@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > >Hi All > I tried my transfer program last night and I got >it to work, mostly. It has a bug but I have a work >around. First, is there anyone that is waiting, >desperately for the image transfer for the H8-5 setup? >If so, I can release what I have tomorrow with >instructions. That way it would be available over >the weekend. If not, I'd like to fix the bug so it >will work without the extra problems. Hi I looked at the code last night and I now know what the problem is. I just have to fix it now. It is related to the head load timeout function and clock interrupts. I expect it won't be too much trouble to get this all working. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 4 16:55:06 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 21:55:06 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] Emulator/disks Message-ID: I just posted another "blank" disk image .. 1s102t.h8d. It's a 102-track "fantasy floppy". Seems to be working on Dave's emulator. (why 102? It's the most you can have with 4-sector groups). I still haven't gotten 2-sided or disks with larger groups to work yet. It's possible my HDOS doesn't support either. I'm using the 50.06.00 that I posted to the archives. Does anyone have a 50.07.00 (or higher?) distribution? And does anyone know what the final issue number for HDOS was? Cheers, - Steven _________________________________________________________________ Getting married? Find great tips, tools and the latest trends at MSN Life Events. http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 4 17:07:17 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 22:07:17 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] tools / request Message-ID: Oh, I forgot to mention I also posted another little gizmo in utilities: hdir.exe - It lists out the directory of an hdos disk image (h8d) in the format of a "dir/s" in hdos. Does anyone have a PAM8AT rom? Or listing for it? Or know what it's part number was? Cheers, - Steven _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page ? FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 4 17:33:48 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 15:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Emulator/disks Message-ID: <200406042233.PAA29867@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Steven Parker" > >I just posted another "blank" disk image .. 1s102t.h8d. It's a 102-track >"fantasy floppy". Seems to be working on Dave's emulator. (why 102? It's >the most you can have with 4-sector groups). > >I still haven't gotten 2-sided or disks with larger groups to work yet. >It's possible my HDOS doesn't support either. I'm using the 50.06.00 that I >posted to the archives. Does anyone have a 50.07.00 (or higher?) >distribution? And does anyone know what the final issue number for HDOS >was? Hi Seems like it was only HDOS3 that had anything else. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Fri Jun 4 19:03:29 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 20:03:29 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] tools / request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40C10DD1.6090407@sc.rr.com> What is a PAM8AT ROM? You didn't mean just PAM8 did you? If you did, it's 444-13 for PAM8. PAM8GO is 444-60. I do have an extra PAM8 ROM. Carroll Steven Parker wrote: > Oh, I forgot to mention I also posted another little gizmo in > utilities: hdir.exe - It lists out the directory of an hdos disk image > (h8d) in the format of a "dir/s" in hdos. > > Does anyone have a PAM8AT rom? Or listing for it? Or know what it's > part number was? > > Cheers, > > - Steven > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page ? > FREE download! > http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Fri Jun 4 19:05:54 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 20:05:54 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] diskette drive Message-ID: <40C10E62.3070503@sc.rr.com> Does anyone know how the Commodore 64 disk drives work? They were connected by a 6 pin serial interface. There are a number of them on ebay. Do you think it would be possible to use them on an H8. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Jun 4 19:56:09 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 17:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] diskette drive Message-ID: <200406050056.i550u9Wh051282@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by mail.toadware.ca with SMTP; 5 Jun 2004 01:23:23 -0000 At 20:05 04/06/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Does anyone know how the Commodore 64 disk drives work? They were >connected by a 6 pin serial interface. There are a number of them on ebay. >Do you think it would be possible to use them on an H8. >Carroll I've got a pile of them - it's basically a serial protocol with commands to read/write blocks on the disk - I believe there is some information available on the net somewhere. IIRC, the main problem with the commodore drives is that they used a non- standard baudrate - at least non-standard for must common serial systems. You might want to consider the Atari 1050 drive, as it runs at 19200, and I know the commands are documented - I'm planning to make an adapter so that I can read Atari disk into the PC - There's schematics and code posted to do that - main problem is the Atari connector is odd - I need to find a spare cable that I can sacrifice. If you want to build your own controller, the Nec 765 controller chip used on old XT controllers is quite easy to work with - it would not be tough to build an H8 controller for "normal" DD floppy drives with one of those - In fact, I like the idea someone posted earlier today, just adapt the XT card to fit the H8 - that gives me an idea - what about an H8 "card" which is just an XT card adapter - Basically a blank card with an XT bus socket at right anges, so that you could put an XT card on the front of it - the whole thing would still fit in the H8, and you could use any XT card you liked. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 4 20:14:38 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 18:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] diskette drive Message-ID: <200406050114.SAA29933@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dave Dunfield" ---snip--- > >If you want to build your own controller, the Nec 765 controller chip >used on old XT controllers is quite easy to work with - it would not >be tough to build an H8 controller for "normal" DD floppy drives with >one of those - In fact, I like the idea someone posted earlier today, >just adapt the XT card to fit the H8 - that gives me an idea - what >about an H8 "card" which is just an XT card adapter - Basically a blank >card with an XT bus socket at right anges, so that you could put an XT >card on the front of it - the whole thing would still fit in the H8, >and you could use any XT card you liked. Hi Dave That was me. You'd need to deal with address conversion and interrupt selection. Still, it is well within what can be done. The only issue with the 765 is that the processor needs to be fast enough ( unlike the MFM hard drive interface that actually buffers at least one sector ). The 8080 at 2MHz isn't going to keep up with much. As I recall, it takes really tricky code to even do single density. In these cases, a DMA controller makes sense. I'm not sure what the bus signals are for the H8. I wonder if it has the ability to have DMA. It doesn't need to be too fancy, just something that can move data on an interrupt. I've worked with the Intel DMA chip ( forget the number ) but there may be other choices out there. The other thing is that it might be done with a simple multi-ported arrangement with a RAM on board this interface card. One would use the processor with dummy writes and holds to actually transfer data. This would be well within the 8080's ability to handle double density. Such instructions as PUSH can be used to automatically increment the address. It needs a little thought but it is possible. Even something as simple as 256 NOP's in a row could be used for a sector size of 256. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 4 20:20:03 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 01:20:03 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] HDOS versions / ROMs Message-ID: > >Does anyone have a 50.07.00 (or higher?) distribution? Seems like it was >only HDOS3 that had anything else. I've seen 50.07.00 mentioned in the documentation, so I'm pretty certain there was at least one release beyond what we have in the archive now. It's possible it was only distributed on 8" disks (for use with the H67). >What is a PAM8AT ROM? You didn't mean just PAM8 did you? If you did, it's >444-13 for PAM8. PAM8GO is 444-60. Yea, I know those .. we have both of them in the archives already. :-) PAM8AT is yet another flavor of rom that boots automatically ("zero-button boot"). I'm not entirely sure if it was an actual Heath part, or a HUG item. I thought it would be particularly handy to use with the emulator. - Steven _________________________________________________________________ Looking to buy a house? Get informed with the Home Buying Guide from MSN House & Home. http://coldwellbanker.msn.com/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Fri Jun 4 21:04:18 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 22:04:18 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] HDOS versions / ROMs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40C12A22.6010700@sc.rr.com> I have a ROM in my H8 that I do not know exactly what it is. The XCON8 ROM was 444-70. The one in my H8 is 444-74. I'm pretty sure it came with the XCON 8 option card. It can do an autoboot if one switch is set on the option card. Carroll Steven Parker wrote: >> >Does anyone have a 50.07.00 (or higher?) distribution? Seems like >> it was only HDOS3 that had anything else. > > > I've seen 50.07.00 mentioned in the documentation, so I'm pretty > certain there was at least one release beyond what we have in the > archive now. It's possible it was only distributed on 8" disks (for > use with the H67). > >> What is a PAM8AT ROM? You didn't mean just PAM8 did you? If you did, >> it's 444-13 for PAM8. PAM8GO is 444-60. > > > Yea, I know those .. we have both of them in the archives already. :-) > > PAM8AT is yet another flavor of rom that boots automatically > ("zero-button boot"). I'm not entirely sure if it was an actual Heath > part, or a HUG item. I thought it would be particularly handy to use > with the emulator. > > - Steven > > _________________________________________________________________ > Looking to buy a house? Get informed with the Home Buying Guide from > MSN House & Home. http://coldwellbanker.msn.com/ > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 4 21:51:08 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 02:51:08 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] HDOS versions / ROMs Message-ID: >I have a ROM in my H8 that I do not know exactly what it is. The XCON8 ROM >was 444-70. The one in my H8 is 444-74. I'm pretty sure it came with the >XCON 8 option card. It can do an autoboot if one switch is set on the >option card. Yea, that's a feature of the xcon system and also the HA-8-6 Z80 cpu card. PAM8AT is for stock (non-xcon) systems. It's the same size as PAM8 and PAM8GO. However, could you make a dump of your 444-74 and send it to me? We don't currently have one of those in the archives! There's also a 444-124 rom .. anyone got one of those? - Steven _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page ? FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Sun Jun 6 02:05:36 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 00:05:36 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] diskette drive References: <200406050114.SAA29933@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <40C2C240.1759@earthlink.net> Dave Dunfield wrote: >> If you want to build your own controller, the Nec 765 controller >> chip used on old XT controllers is quite easy to work with -- it >> would not be tough to build an H8 controller for "normal" DD >> floppy drives with one of those The NEC 765 is easy to use hardware-wise; it doesn't take many chips to interface it. But, since it was never used in the H8, H89, or Z100 series, this means you're going to have to write all your own CP/M and HDOS software to support it. Also, the 765 (as well as all the other floppy disk controller chips) are out of production. Finding any of them is a challenge. You may be reduced to buying them surplus, or scrounging them off old PC boards. One has to ask; what is the point of designing a new board for such an old chip? Certainly, you can do it "just for the fun of it". You might happen to have a 765 in a tube somewhere, don't mind wire-wrapping up a board, and like writing your own BIOS software. But it probably doesn't do much for anyone else. My own thought is that it would be less work to clone one of the existing H8 disk controller boards, either the Heath H17, H37, H47 or H67, or CDR FDC-880 (were there any others?). The Western Digital WD1797 that they used is no harder to find surplus, and at least the PC board layout, circuit diagrams, and software are all available. >> what about an H8 "card" which is just an XT card adapter -- >> Basically a blank card with an XT bus socket at right anges, >> so that you could put an XT card on the front of it - the whole >> thing would still fit in the H8, and you could use any XT card >> you liked. That is also a very interesting idea. The appeal is of course the huge number of old (free) IBM-PC and -XT type boards floating around. But there are some significant challenges, too. Most of these boards don't have schematics or documentation. The PC bus's timing and operation wasn't really defined (just an ad hoc standard), so it becomes an engineering project to figure out how to tie an 8080 or Z80 to the PC bus and get it to work. I did some work on building a PC bus to H89 adapter 'way back when I was designing the H-1000 replacement H89 CPU board. Getting the basic memory and I/O addressing to work wasn't too hard for the H-1000's 8086; but it was a challenge for the Z80 because of totally different bus timing. If you don't copy the PC's timing exactly, you get some PC boards that work and some that don't. But what made me give up on the project were the problems of interrupts and DMA. Many PC cards depend on these functions (disk controllers in particular), and the H8 and H89 don't have anything even remotely as powerful. Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > The only issue with the 765 is that the processor needs to be > fast enough ( unlike the MFM hard drive interface that actually > buffers at least one sector). The 8080 at 2MHz isn't going to > keep up with much. As I recall, it takes really tricky code to > even do single density. No; it's not that bad. Speed-wise, the 765 is no better or worse than any other floppy disk controller chip. A 2 MHz 8080 can do even double-density 8" (16 us/byte). But, the hardware and code to do it is really tricky! It's usually done by having the CPU executing straight-line code (256 reads in a row, not a loop that iterates 256 times); or by using wait-states or Halt to synchronize the CPU to the reads. > In these cases, a DMA controller makes sense. Except that the H8 has no bus structure to allow DMA. All you have is BUSRQ/BUSAK, and that's slower than just using software to do it directly. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Sun Jun 6 12:55:09 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 10:55:09 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] OT: Jack, am I getting through? Message-ID: <001101c44bef$771924e0$650fa8c0@Sol> Jack, I've sent you a couple of private messages over the last two weeks, but no replies. Am I getting through? --Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun Jun 6 13:07:58 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 13:07:58 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] OT: Jack, am I getting through? In-Reply-To: <001101c44bef$771924e0$650fa8c0@Sol> Message-ID: <000101c44bf1$3351fff0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> please check for a message from earlier today. > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Patrick > Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 12:55 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: [sebhc] OT: Jack, am I getting through? > > > Jack, I've sent you a couple of private messages over the > last two weeks, but no replies. Am I getting through? --Patrick > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Sun Jun 6 13:23:20 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 11:23:20 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] diskette drive References: <200406050114.SAA29933@clulw009.amd.com> <40C2C240.1759@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <004601c44bf3$58fa47b0$650fa8c0@Sol> > The NEC 765 is easy to use hardware-wise; it doesn't take many chips to > interface it. But, since it was never used in the H8, H89, or Z100 > series, this means you're going to have to write all your own CP/M and > HDOS software to support it. That's not so bad--I've written many a "BIOS"/driver for the 765 and it's ilk. > Also, the 765 (as well as all the other floppy disk controller chips) > are out of production. Finding any of them is a challenge. You may be > reduced to buying them surplus, or scrounging them off old PC boards. The spirit and function of this chip persists in many modern "Super-I/O" implementations like the SMC FDC37669 and the National PC87322. These are readily available and implement essentially the same interface, with the added benefit of a couple of serial ports, a parallel port, and an IDE interface. It takes some glue, no question, but not that much. Howard Harte has done such a board for S-100 systems, and it's a real beauty. He also added user-accessible Flash and a couple of other tricks, so it's a really nice addition. On the issue of DMA and/or use of polled I/O and processor speed, I assert that a clever designer would simply have an on-board RAM buffer that the I/O chip can read/write directly during DMA, and that can be separately read/written by the 8080 or Z80 through either memory mapping or I/O ports. Let the DMA happen as fast as it can, and let the CPU read the buffer at its own pace after the board signals that the DMA has finished. Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Jun 6 14:48:14 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 12:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Cutest little H8 you've ever seen Message-ID: <200406061948.i56JmEtJ016740@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by softdnserror with SMTP; 6 Jun 2004 13:15:01 -0000 Hi Guys, This is so cute, I just had to take a picture and share with you: http://www.dunfield.com/pub/pocketh8.jpg This is the H8 simulator loaded up and running (with HDOS booted) on my pocket PC. A functioning H8 will full front panel in the palm of your hand. It's also kinda cool in that it is an example of an emulator running under an emulator: XSCALE-ARM -> 8086 -> 8080 Btw, I have also posted a minor update to the simulator: - Some Corrections to the README file suggested by Jack - I have fixed a problem where B=0 (start with breakpoint at 0) would cause the speed calibration to fail - B=0 is very handy if you want to enter the debugger before running ANY 8080 code. - I have changed the default value filled into unloaded memory locations to a repeating pattern 0x00, 0x76 (NOP, HLT) instead of just 0x00 (NOP) - this prevents the simulation from running "wild" and eventually executing an invalid misaligned stack pop across the FFFF-0000 boundary which traps recent PC processors. http://www.dunfield.com/pub/h8.zip Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Sun Jun 6 17:01:14 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 15:01:14 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] diskette drive References: <200406050114.SAA29933@clulw009.amd.com> <40C2C240.1759@earthlink.net> <004601c44bf3$58fa47b0$650fa8c0@Sol> Message-ID: <40C3942A.2C85@earthlink.net> Patrick wrote: > The spirit and function of [the 765] chip persists in many modern > "Super-I/O" implementations like the SMC FDC37669 and the National > PC87322. These are readily available and implement essentially the > same interface, with the added benefit of a couple of serial ports, > a parallel port, and an IDE interface. Yes, but they left out all the features of the 765 that weren't used in the PC. For instance, they left out single-density mode, which is the standard format for all Heath distribution disks. > Howard Harte has done such a board for S-100 systems, and it's a > real beauty. Yes, it really is a beautiful board. But it is also very expensive, and beyond what the average hobbyist could build. If this is what you want, and you have the determination to stick to it to the end, by all means, go right ahead! > On the issue of DMA and/or use of polled I/O and processor speed, > I assert that a clever designer would simply have an on-board RAM > buffer that the I/O chip can read/write directly during DMA, and > that can be separately read/written by the 8080 or Z80 through > either memory mapping or I/O ports. Quite true. ANYTHING can be done if you're clever enough. But to me, I like Dr. Dobbs old motto "running light without overbyte". I really enjoy the old Heath computers because they are simple, straightforward, and work well. Their apparent simplicity hides the fact that the designers were extremely clever, and made excellent choices on how to do things. For instance, they got disk controllers to work *without* DMA, on a very slow CPU. I know, this makes me an old fogey. The modern design philosophy is "who cares how much hardware it takes -- chips are cheap. Just throw enough of them at the problem. Who cares how much software it takes -- memory is cheap. Throw in a few more megabytes. If it's too slow, raise the clock speed -- who cares how much power it takes." There is satisfaction in finding a simple, elegant way to solve a problem. Rarely are such solutions found by using whatever is expedient (already in my junk box), or whatever is cheapest, or copying whatever everyone else uses. I enjoy the challenge of finding elegant solutions; in fact, the journey in finding them is probably more enjoyable than actually using the product they produce. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Sun Jun 6 17:03:05 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 15:03:05 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] diskette drive Message-ID: <060604158.54161@webbox.com> a point of clarification, the National PC87322 supports 250kbs which is single density. The original 765A if I recall correctly did not have a data separator built in. The super I/O chips did and they handle 250kbs (SD), 500kbs (DD) and then 1meg and 2meg for high density formats. The density can be set both by external jumpers as well as in software. On the issue of being clever, an elegant solution is one that meets cost, time to market, or a combination of both. As for the Heath engineers being clever, sure. I didn't think the Heath H8/H89 had DMA. That feature is a pretty hardware intensive function and Heath was a very cost concious company. I suspect that the engineers were told to make something work without DMA - as I have always said "necessity is a mother." For the record, I am an old fogey to and I certainly do not throw chips at a design just to make it work. I will, however, use state of the art chips to accomplish what I need to do. A few months ago I used a $3 CPLD from xilinx to replace six cmos chips that were taking up too much board space, costing just as much, and giving me less functionality - now that is clever. best regards, Steve Thatcher >the PC. For instance, they left out single-density mode, which is the >standard format for all Heath distribution disks. > >Their apparent simplicity hides the fact that the >designers were extremely clever, and made excellent choices on how to do >things. For instance, they got disk controllers to work *without* DMA, >on a very slow CPU. > >I know, this makes me an old fogey. The modern design philosophy is "who >cares how much hardware it takes -- chips are cheap. Just throw enough >of them at the problem. Who cares how much software it takes -- memory >is cheap. Throw in a few more megabytes. If it's too slow, raise the >clock speed -- who cares how much power it takes." > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Mon Jun 7 01:32:22 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 23:32:22 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] diskette drive References: <060604158.54161@webbox.com> Message-ID: <40C40BF6.2D27@earthlink.net> melamy at earthlink.net wrote: > a point of clarification, the National PC87322 supports 250kbs > which is single density. Ok; thanks for the correction. My comment was not about that chip in particular; I was speaking of the fact that most modern PCs have floppy controller chips that don't support single density. I just took a quick look at the PC87322 data sheet and see that it says it is fully compatible with the 765A and single density. I was frustrated to discover that of the 6 PCs I have, only one of them supports single density (using programs like 22disk) -- and that is an ancient Zenith Z-159 with a real 765A chip. The other, newer machines do not (Compaq 386 laptop, Compaq 486 laptop, HP Vectra 486DX2 desktop, Gateway 2000 Pentium, and Dell Pentium III). > On the issue of being clever, an elegant solution is one that > meets cost, time to market, or a combination of both. Well, I would say that there are *many* solutions to every problem. But, some are better than others. There is a tendency nowday for people to be in a flaming hurry to do it fast and cheap, and so grab the first solution that falls to hand. This is not what I would call an "elegant" solution. An elegant solution is one that is clearly better than other solutions. It often goes far beyond just barely meeting the criteria, but exceeds them by a considerable margin. > For the record, I am an old fogey to and I certainly do not throw > chips at a design just to make it work. I will, however, use > state of the art chips to accomplish what I need to do. I was not trying to be at all critical, Steve. I'll use the newest and best tools for the job as well, if that's what produces the best solution. But, the H8 is a relic from a bygone age. Using a 100-pin single-sourced surface-mount chip in a new design doesn't bother me; but it seems out of place in a 25-year-old H8. Many of the reasons I love the H8 are *because* it is simple and straightforward, uses generic, easy to get parts, and can be worked on with very simple tools. So for me, I would rather have the PC87322 in my desktop PC (so it could read Heath single density disks). And, have an original Heath disk controller board for my H8. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Jun 7 07:18:29 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 07:18:29 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Cutest little H8 you've ever seen In-Reply-To: <200406061948.i56JmEtJ016740@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <000001c44c89$8b4d0e50$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Now that's what I would call a deeply embedded system! Jack > Hi Guys, > > This is so cute, I just had to take a picture and share with you: > http://www.dunfield.com/pub/pocketh8.jpg -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 7 11:31:25 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 09:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] 80 track disk Message-ID: <200406071631.JAA01198@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I've misplaced the message about who was asking about HDOS2.0 and 80 tracks. Anyway, in the library of images there are three disk that have the code and such to do just that, patch 80track driver into HDOS 2.0. One needs to get the images for 885-1095, 885-1121A and 885-1121B. On one of them it describes how to create your 80 track setup. It works with either a 96 tpi ( 1.2M ) drive, using one side or a 48 tpi ( 360K ) using two sides. It does talk about hardware mods for the two sided. One of the utility disk has replacement tools for things like DUP as well. Anyway, it is all in the library. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Mon Jun 7 13:46:02 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:46:02 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Cutest little H8 you've ever seen References: <000001c44c89$8b4d0e50$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <40C4B7EA.2C3E@earthlink.net> David Dunfield wrote: >> This is so cute, I just had to take a picture and share with you: >> http://www.dunfield.com/pub/pocketh8.jpg Jack Rubin wrote: > Now that's what I would call a deeply embedded system! Heh; run Tom Pittman's Tiny BASIC on it. It was a BASIC interpreter written for a pseudomachine, which was running on an interpreter, so it was doubly interpreted (slow, but easy to make versions for many different CPUs). On your palm, the 8080 code would be doubly interpreted again, making it quadruply interpreted :-) -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Mon Jun 7 13:04:36 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 11:04:36 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] diskette drive In-Reply-To: <40C3942A.2C85@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000301c44cb9$e506def0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> > For instance, they got disk controllers to work > *without* DMA, on a very slow CPU. > > I know, this makes me an old fogey. Not at all! I agree. The solution was brute-force, but it's still nonetheless elegant in its execution. The proof of that is in the one measure that I consider to be valuable above all others: reliability. Whether you were using the hard sector or soft sectored controllers, for the standard of the day, the disk systems were as reliable as a thrown brick. But, I think getting the controllers to work without DMA on a slow CPU was partly handed to them by the relatively low densities that were being used at the time. Still, not everyone pulled off what Heath's designers did in the same environment--I also owned several Commodore PETs in my childhood, and I slaved at chores and saved for a year to buy the $1295 two-floppy disk subsystem. It cost more than the computer it was connected to, it's cost inflated by the use of not one but TWO 6500-series CPUs to accomplish its work. In retrospect, I think that was an embarrassing design compared to the equally (and sometimes more) capable products produced by Heath, North Star, and Apple all around the same time. > The modern design > philosophy is "who cares how much hardware it takes -- chips > are cheap. Just throw enough of them at the problem. Who > cares how much software it takes -- memory is cheap. Throw in > a few more megabytes. If it's too slow, raise the clock speed > -- who cares how much power it takes." Lee, I share your opinion on this. Although I'm probably a bit younger than most of the folks on the list (I'm just 40), I'm old enough that my first computer had less than 1K of available memory and six seven-segment displays (a KIM-1). I remember writing a lot of fun programs, and even a few useful ones, and taking great satisfaction in finding two instructions that I could combine to save the one byte I desperately needed elsewhere. Today I run a software company, and every day I wrestle with well-meaning but inexperienced Java-jockeys whose answer to every performance problem is, in a nutshell, use faster CPUs in the server, and more of them per server, and cluster those servers, and...???? They can't add two integers in assembly language for any processor, and whatever time they spent learning electronics in school was promptly forgotten after grades were handed out. (I could go on about the free Cokes, ping-pong tables, custom office furniture, stock options, and so on). > There is satisfaction in finding a simple, elegant way to > solve a problem. Rarely are such solutions found by using > whatever is expedient (already in my junk box), or whatever > is cheapest, or copying whatever everyone else uses. I enjoy > the challenge of finding elegant solutions; in fact, the > journey in finding them is probably more enjoyable than > actually using the product they produce. I think we're on the same page. I share Steve's view of elegance. I happen to have a couple of 179x and 279x chips in my parts box, as well as several 765s. Of course it would be easy and consistent with the original design of the machine to build and support a board with any of these devices. But I think it is again about goals. Mine is less to stick with the original parts and more to provide longevity of the machine as a whole while still being able to use it. I could keep that machine forever in mothballs, but I want to use it. My goal would not be to build a board that looks like the old boards and could easily have been on of them--that seems fruitless to me, because the parts will only get harder to find and more expensive, and it will never be an original Heath board anyway. I'd rather save my old parts for repairing the original boards and keeping them alive as long as possible. > Yes, but they left out all the features of the 765 that > weren't used in the PC. For instance, they left out > single-density mode, which is the standard format for all > Heath distribution disks. Within a short time, through our collective efforts, we're likely to have a huge collection at our fingertips of distribution media in downloadable form. The original distribution media is going bad, and nothing will stop that. Whether you use single-density-compatible super I/O chip or an original 179X/279X/765, the media will just be something to pass around the room and look at in ten years--it's data will have gone into quiet repose. So, for myself, I don't consider that compatibility to be a design goal. The more we use our vintage floppies and drives, the more we shorten their life, and degradation isn't linear. Using a modern chip and a little glue gives me options and alternatives, and that, in my mind, becomes part of the preservation of the system as a whole. > Yes, it really is a beautiful board. But it is also very > expensive, and beyond what the average hobbyist could build. > If this is what you want, and you have the determination to > stick to it to the end, by all means, go right ahead! I probably will, I just don't know when! I have more projects than time. :-) I don't mean any disrespect to Howard by saying this, but he's running a business and the board is, by that necessity, priced accordingly. I'm sure the cost of manufacture is lower, but that board is part of a project that puts food on his table, and he's clearly put considerable time into it, and the price reflects that time as much if not more than the actual cost of manufacture. He also has the additional burden of implementing an interstitial bus (IEEE-696/S-100) to very close tolerance to its standard, while at the same time supporting the exceptions that were common at the time. Actually, had such a board been available in 1982, it would have probably cost the same or more, so in today's dollars, I think it's an excellent value. I can tell you first hand that running a North Star Horizon on an IDE hard drive is worth every penny of what Howard charges (and I'm probably going to buy another). As a hobbyist, my time is free, and I know I'll learn a lot doing a similar project. And besides, is any of us an "average hobbyist?" :-) That reminds me of a question I keep forgetting to ask: are the busses in the H-8 and H-89 at all compatible? Could a card be designed to work for both? I know that each had its own version of the H-17 controller, yet they share the 444-19 ROM. Aside from the difference in form factor, how different are they? (I don't have an H-8; yes, I'm a loser, I know. I'm working on it.) A final word on your "old fogey" comment: every time you "old fogeys" speak, I learn something. It is my earnest goal to be an "old fogey" some day myself (in the eyes of the 20-year old software engineer sitting across the room from me, I already am). Whether or not we agree on every point, I acknowledge and respect your considerable experience. Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 7 13:31:30 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 18:31:30 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] busses and roms Message-ID: >That reminds me of a question I keep forgetting to ask: are the busses in >the H-8 and H-89 at all compatible? Could a card be designed to work for >both? I know that each had its own version of the H-17 controller, yet >they >share the 444-19 ROM. Aside from the difference in form factor, how >different are they? (I don't have an H-8; yes, I'm a loser, I know. I'm >working on it.) No, the H8 cards are much larger than 89 cards, and the H8 has a much longer 50-pin bus connector (it's actually 2 separate 25-pin connectors in line). And no, the H89 had a different rom series, starting with MTR-88 (the original H8 rom is PAM-8). We don't yet have rom images in the archives, but we do have listings for MTR-89 and MTR-90. _________________________________________________________________ Stop worrying about overloading your inbox - get MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Mon Jun 7 13:40:09 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 11:40:09 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] busses and roms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005f01c44cbe$dc0f6470$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> > And no, the H89 had a different rom series, starting with MTR-88 (the > original H8 rom is PAM-8). We don't yet have rom images in > the archives, > but we do have listings for MTR-89 and MTR-90. Steven, this is know, but they do have 444-19 in common, right? As for the MTR roms, I think I have at least one of each (MTR-88, MTR-89, and both the older and newer MTR-90), so I can read them and post them, unless Lee beats me to it. Another project... :-) --Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 7 13:50:30 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 18:50:30 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] busses and roms Message-ID: > > And no, the H89 had a different rom series, starting with MTR-88 (the > >Steven, this is know, but they do have 444-19 in common, right? No, 444-19 is PAM-8, for the H-8. The MTR series roms are different, but they do have compatible entry points so they work with H-8 software. Historical note: You may sometimes see references to "fox" roms. This was an internal name for the 88-89-90 series. At one time it was considered for a marketing name for that computer series. _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://youroffers.msn.com -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Mon Jun 7 13:56:08 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 11:56:08 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] busses and roms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006301c44cc1$17b259e0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> > No, 444-19 is PAM-8, for the H-8. The MTR series roms are > different, but > they do have compatible entry points so they work with H-8 software. Steven, in my H-89 assembly manual, 444-19 is the "H-17 ROM". Did Heath have different ROMs with the same part number? Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 7 14:14:42 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 19:14:42 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] busses and roms Message-ID: >Steven, in my H-89 assembly manual, 444-19 is the "H-17 ROM". Did Heath >have different ROMs with the same part number? My bad. :-) We were talking about the MTR vs. PAM and I got the numbers confused. You're right, 444-19 is the H-17 ROM. The PAM-8 part number is 444-13. _________________________________________________________________ Getting married? Find great tips, tools and the latest trends at MSN Life Events. http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Mon Jun 7 14:21:33 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 12:21:33 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] busses and roms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006c01c44cc4$a48977b0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> > My bad. :-) We were talking about the MTR vs. PAM and I got > the numbers > confused. You're right, 444-19 is the H-17 ROM. The PAM-8 > part number is > 444-13. Oh, thank ! OK, that's good. Lots of common entry points, and apparently common port numbers. That's a good start. Too bad the busses are so different physically. But, I suppose in the end they both expose the system's address lines, data lines, and a few control signals anyway. So... How about a controller on a simple daughter card, with a mother for the H-8 and another for the H-89? Looks like I need to grab a few PDFs... :-) Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Mon Jun 7 16:15:16 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 14:15:16 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] busses and roms References: Message-ID: <40C4DAE4.105B@earthlink.net> Steven Parker wrote: >> are the busses in the H-8 and H-89 at all compatible? No, they are quite different. The H8 has a true buss, with 50 pins and all the signals needed for power, memory and I/O. The H89 has two different buses; one for memory and one for I/O. Each has 35 pins. This isn't enough to have *all* the signals needed; it doesn't have all the address lines in the memory buss, or all the pins for the I/O addresses in the I/O buss. > Could a card be designed to work for both? No; but the H89 buses are a subset of the H8 bus. It should be possible to build an adapter card that allows H89 cards to plug into an H8. > I know that each had its own version of the H-17 controller, yet > they share the 444-19 ROM. Aside from the difference in form factor, > how different are they? Software-wise, the H89 is an H8 without the front panel. The memory map and I/O maps are basically the same. It was easy to make software that ran on both without changes. > We don't yet have rom images in the archives, but we do have > listings for MTR-89 and MTR-90. I have over a dozen H89 ROM images in .hex format. I'd be happy to provide them. Most of them have no copyright notices either on the part itself, nor in the code, so I don't see a problem making them available online. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Mon Jun 7 16:22:27 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 14:22:27 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] diskette drive References: <000301c44cb9$e506def0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Message-ID: <40C4DC93.409D@earthlink.net> Patrick Rigney wrote: > The solution was brute-force, but it's still nonetheless elegant > in its execution. The proof of that is in the one measure that > I consider to be valuable above all others: reliability. Whether > you were using the hard sector or soft sectored controllers, for > the standard of the day, the disk systems were as reliable as a > thrown brick. Yes! There were dozens of companies that interfaced floppy disks to various microcomputers. Frankly, most of them were unreliable and buggy! The Heath systems were outstanding in this regard; proof that they did an excellent job. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Mon Jun 7 14:52:19 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 12:52:19 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] H8-4 on eBay Message-ID: <007001c44cc8$f1577f70$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> FYI: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5100626197 --Patrick -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Jun 7 15:11:51 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 16:11:51 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H19 emulation Message-ID: <40C4CC07.7020502@sc.rr.com> I'm getting close to finishing the H19 emulation program. At the moment, I have data going to both my emulation program and a real H19, to be sure they both react the same way. I've included H19 graphics in this emulation. I will post both the program and the source code when I finish. I don't plan to emulate ANSI at the moment, maybe later. The program will operate by connecting your H8 to a PC Comm port 1. With some modifications, PC Comm port 2 can emulate 2 cassette machines for a tape system. PC Comm port 3 can be connected to an H8 printer port to allow you to print to a PC parallel printer. I hope there is a little interest in this. I've spent a lot of time in development. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 7 15:14:22 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 13:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] diskette drive Message-ID: <200406072014.NAA01452@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Patrick Rigney" ---snip--- > >That reminds me of a question I keep forgetting to ask: are the busses in >the H-8 and H-89 at all compatible? Could a card be designed to work for >both? I know that each had its own version of the H-17 controller, yet they >share the 444-19 ROM. Aside from the difference in form factor, how >different are they? (I don't have an H-8; yes, I'm a loser, I know. I'm >working on it.) > Hi Software wise, it should work but the H89 uses simpler bus addresses that are reduced to a few selects. Of course the form factor of the boards are completely different. My image loader that ran on the H89 ran on the H8 with the H8-4 board. Other than the monitor ROMs they did try to keep things similar. I do remember writing a 4 byte loop that should be able to stay up with the floppy. It was for a 8 inch so it should work for a 5-1/4 double density. Now, if I could just remember how that code worked. I've long since lost where I put it. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 7 15:20:00 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 13:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] busses and roms Message-ID: <200406072020.NAA01460@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Patrick Rigney" > >> No, 444-19 is PAM-8, for the H-8. The MTR series roms are >> different, but >> they do have compatible entry points so they work with H-8 software. > >Steven, in my H-89 assembly manual, 444-19 is the "H-17 ROM". Did Heath >have different ROMs with the same part number? > >Patrick > The H-17 ROM in my H89 matches that that is on the floppy controller board of my H8. Although, I've not read that portion of the XCON8, I suspect it is also identical because I do a few direct calls into the code ( not though the jump tables ) to the H-17 and these all seem to work as well on the XCON8. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 7 15:39:30 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 13:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Update of image transfer file Message-ID: <200406072039.NAA01493@clulw009.amd.com> Hi All I've made an update of my image transfer file. It has been posted to the ftp page. Here are a list of the things it does: 1. Take an image file ( *.H8D in the ftp library ) and create a disk on the H89/Z90/H8 platforms. 2. Bootstraps a Hxx machine with no floppies with code on them. 3. Transfers image files to and from PC to Hxx disk. I have checked the following platforms. Other combination may work. H89 with serial card. H8 with PAM8 and H8-5 ( one may be able to use this with the H19 port of the H88 board on a H89 if you don't have a serial card ). H8 with XCON8 and H8-4 This code is only for 40 track hard sectored systems( so far ). It will run in a H8 with only 8K starting at 040.000. I'm looking for feedback. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 7 15:46:53 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 13:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Update of image transfer file Message-ID: <200406072046.NAA01518@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Forgot to mention ftp address: http://www.sebhc.org/archive/utilities/H89LDR7.ZIP Later Dwight >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > >Hi All > I've made an update of my image transfer file. >It has been posted to the ftp page. >Here are a list of the things it does: > >1. Take an image file ( *.H8D in the ftp library ) and > create a disk on the H89/Z90/H8 platforms. >2. Bootstraps a Hxx machine with no floppies with code on them. >3. Transfers image files to and from PC to Hxx disk. > >I have checked the following platforms. Other >combination may work. > >H89 with serial card. >H8 with PAM8 and H8-5 ( one may be able to use this with > the H19 port of the H88 board on a H89 > if you don't have a serial card ). >H8 with XCON8 and H8-4 > > This code is only for 40 track hard sectored systems( so far ). >It will run in a H8 with only 8K starting at 040.000. > I'm looking for feedback. >Dwight > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 7 15:40:44 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 13:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 Bus pins Message-ID: <200406072040.NAA01497@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Could someone post the H8 bus pins? Thanks Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Jun 7 15:46:34 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 16:46:34 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Update of image transfer file In-Reply-To: <200406072039.NAA01493@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200406072039.NAA01493@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <40C4D42A.1080302@sc.rr.com> Dwight, I'll give this a try asap. It sounds like what I'm looking for. I have blank diskettes, but no way to boot to a disk system. Carroll Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >Hi All > I've made an update of my image transfer file. >It has been posted to the ftp page. >Here are a list of the things it does: > >1. Take an image file ( *.H8D in the ftp library ) and > create a disk on the H89/Z90/H8 platforms. >2. Bootstraps a Hxx machine with no floppies with code on them. >3. Transfers image files to and from PC to Hxx disk. > >I have checked the following platforms. Other >combination may work. > >H89 with serial card. >H8 with PAM8 and H8-5 ( one may be able to use this with > the H19 port of the H88 board on a H89 > if you don't have a serial card ). >H8 with XCON8 and H8-4 > > This code is only for 40 track hard sectored systems( so far ). >It will run in a H8 with only 8K starting at 040.000. > I'm looking for feedback. >Dwight > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 7 16:33:36 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 14:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Update of image transfer file Message-ID: <200406072133.OAA01543@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Carroll Make sure you have working 8K of working RAM at 040.000.I suspect that HDOS2.0 will need more but that is all I need. If you use the RAM test in the H-17, make sure to watch the BC register. It needs to make a full pass from 0 to 377 to actually test all the bits. If you are not familiar with it, set the PC to 030.003 and GO. It'll stop to let you check the HL ( start of RAM ) and DE ( end of RAM ). Make sure to set to BC before the second GO. Dwight >From: "Carroll Waddell" > >Dwight, >I'll give this a try asap. It sounds like what I'm looking for. I have >blank diskettes, but no way to boot to a disk system. >Carroll > >Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >>Hi All >> I've made an update of my image transfer file. >>It has been posted to the ftp page. >>Here are a list of the things it does: >> >>1. Take an image file ( *.H8D in the ftp library ) and >> create a disk on the H89/Z90/H8 platforms. >>2. Bootstraps a Hxx machine with no floppies with code on them. >>3. Transfers image files to and from PC to Hxx disk. >> >>I have checked the following platforms. Other >>combination may work. >> >>H89 with serial card. >>H8 with PAM8 and H8-5 ( one may be able to use this with >> the H19 port of the H88 board on a H89 >> if you don't have a serial card ). >>H8 with XCON8 and H8-4 >> >> This code is only for 40 track hard sectored systems( so far ). >>It will run in a H8 with only 8K starting at 040.000. >> I'm looking for feedback. >>Dwight >> >> >>-- >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> >> >> > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Mon Jun 7 23:19:40 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 21:19:40 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] busses and roms References: <006301c44cc1$17b259e0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Message-ID: <40C53E5C.473F@earthlink.net> Patrick Rigney wrote: > > > No, 444-19 is PAM-8, for the H-8. The MTR series roms are > > different, but > > they do have compatible entry points so they work with H-8 software. > > Steven, in my H-89 assembly manual, 444-19 is the "H-17 ROM". Did Heath > have different ROMs with the same part number? The 444-19 is the "H17 ROM" for both the H8 and H89. Same ROM. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From waltm22 at comcast.net Mon Jun 7 22:00:57 2004 From: waltm22 at comcast.net (Walter Moore) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 20:00:57 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] H8 system on eBay In-Reply-To: <40C53E5C.473F@earthlink.net> References: <006301c44cc1$17b259e0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> <40C53E5C.473F@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040607195730.01ff4220@mail.comcast.net> 40K H8 without extended configuration, etc. He is selling the H17 with controller separately. Also an 8K static RAM card, which makes two for sale now. ..walt -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Jun 7 22:16:38 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 23:16:38 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] CPM Message-ID: <40C52F96.4090904@sc.rr.com> Does anyone in the group have the Digital Research / Zenith CPM books that I could copy? When my H8 was up and doing real work, I ran CPM. I have a number of programs for CPM. My current goal for my H8 is to get a CPM system back up and running. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Jun 7 22:31:37 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 22:31:37 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] CPM In-Reply-To: <40C52F96.4090904@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <000001c44d09$1b7e6850$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Carroll, Both volumes of documentation for CP/M 2.2.04 are in the archives under documents/software/cpm . Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Carroll Waddell > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:17 PM > To: sebhc at staunch89er.com > Subject: [sebhc] CPM > > > Does anyone in the group have the Digital Research / Zenith CPM books > that I could copy? When my H8 was up and doing real work, I > ran CPM. I > have a number of programs for CPM. My current goal for my H8 > is to get a > CPM system back up and running. > Carroll > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Jun 7 22:37:06 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 22:37:06 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H8 Bus pins In-Reply-To: <200406072040.NAA01497@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <000101c44d09$df635550$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Dwight, Carroll reminded me earlier this evening that the H8 bus is illustrated on page 57 of the H8 Operations manual. You can reference and print this single page easily if you use the web version of the archive to access documents/hardware/h8/H8-Ops-595-2014-01.pdf . By following the html path rather than using straight ftp, you can open the manual online and go directly to the illustration without having to download the entire 6 meg file. Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Dwight K. Elvey > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 3:41 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: [sebhc] H8 Bus pins > > > Hi > Could someone post the H8 bus pins? > Thanks > Dwight > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From Fred11da at aol.com Tue Jun 8 00:25:55 2004 From: Fred11da at aol.com (Fred11da at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 01:25:55 EDT Subject: [sebhc] H8 Bus pins Message-ID: <60.3fdad1c2.2df6a7e3@aol.com> HEATHKIT H-8 BUS: Pins on the backplane were numbered from zero to 49,pin zero was at the bottom of the connector. Pin Signal ------------------ 0 Ground 1 Ground 2 -18V 3 /INT30 4 /INT40 5 /INT50 6 /INT60 7 /INT70 8 /INT10* 9 /INT20* 10 /D0 11 /D1 12 /D2 13 /D3 14 /D4 15 /D5 16 /D6 17 /D7 18 Ground* 19 M1 20 RDYIN* 21 IOW 22 Clock 23 MEMW 24 Ground* 25 HLDA* 26 IOR 27 HOLD* 28 MEMR 29 /RESET 30 /A0 31 /A1 32 /A2 33 /A3 34 /A4 35 /A5 36 /A6 37 /A7 38 /A8 39 /A9 40 /A10 41 /A11 42 /A12 43 /A13 44 /A14 45 /A15 46 /ROMDISABLE 47 +18V 48 +8V 49 +8V -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 8 02:04:41 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 07:04:41 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] H8 Bus pins Message-ID: > Could someone post the H8 bus pins? Page 57, H8 Ops manual (in the archives). _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://youroffers.msn.com -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Tue Jun 8 11:39:08 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 09:39:08 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] CPM References: <40C52F96.4090904@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <40C5EBAC.7D36@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > Does anyone in the group have the Digital Research / Zenith CPM books > that I could copy? Yes, I have them and would be happy to loan them to you. Contact me directly with your address. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Jun 8 10:26:42 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 11:26:42 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] CPM In-Reply-To: <40C5EBAC.7D36@earthlink.net> References: <40C52F96.4090904@sc.rr.com> <40C5EBAC.7D36@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40C5DAB2.8060805@sc.rr.com> Thanks a bunch Lee. Address is: Carroll E. Waddell 2795 Raccoon Road Dalzell, SC 29040 Is the address shown on your email your mailing address? Let me know and I'll send you a check to pay for the postage or whatever. Lee Hart wrote: >Carroll Waddell wrote: > > >>Does anyone in the group have the Digital Research / Zenith CPM books >>that I could copy? >> >> > >Yes, I have them and would be happy to loan them to you. Contact me >directly with your address. > > From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Jun 8 11:11:30 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 12:11:30 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] CPM In-Reply-To: <40C5EBAC.7D36@earthlink.net> References: <40C52F96.4090904@sc.rr.com> <40C5EBAC.7D36@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40C5E532.2090803@sc.rr.com> By the way, do you have a diskette (hard sector) that will boot to CPM? If you do, could you make a copy of that. I still don't have a boot diskette. I'm going to try Dwight's program to create one, but I'm sure my drive will even work. I'd like to have a diskette that I know will work. Carroll Lee Hart wrote: >Carroll Waddell wrote: > > >>Does anyone in the group have the Digital Research / Zenith CPM books >>that I could copy? >> >> > >Yes, I have them and would be happy to loan them to you. Contact me >directly with your address. > > From leeahart at earthlink.net Tue Jun 8 13:35:31 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 11:35:31 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] CPM References: <40C52F96.4090904@sc.rr.com> <40C5EBAC.7D36@earthlink.net> <40C5DAB2.8060805@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <40C606F3.107F@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > > Thanks a bunch Lee. > Address is: > Carroll E. Waddell > 2795 Raccoon Road > Dalzell, SC 29040 > > Is the address shown on your email your mailing address? Yes, it is correct. > Let me know and I'll send you a check to pay for the postage or > whatever. Don't worry about it right now. I'll mail it to you, and when you return it, just include whatever the postage turned out to be. PLEASE return it within a few weeks! This is an original, not a copy! > Lee Hart wrote: > > >Carroll Waddell wrote: > > > > > >>Does anyone in the group have the Digital Research / Zenith CPM books > >>that I could copy? > >> > >> > > > >Yes, I have them and would be happy to loan them to you. Contact me > >directly with your address. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 8 11:58:49 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 09:58:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] CPM Message-ID: <200406081658.JAA02276@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Carroll Waddell" > >By the way, do you have a diskette (hard sector) that will boot to CPM? >If you do, could you make a copy of that. I still don't have a boot >diskette. >I'm going to try Dwight's program to create one, but I'm sure my drive >will even work. I'd like to have a diskette that I know will work. >Carroll > ---snip--- Hi Carroll Make sure that the pullies are clean on the drive. Even little tiny lumps stuck to the main pully will cause write and read failures. I generally drag the edge of a knife ( not really sharp ) along the pully while running. This knocks any rubber or oxides from the surface of the pullies. This is something that is often overlooked when bringing up a machine that has been sitting for some time. Also watch the strobe wheel while the head loads. If the pattern slips, it is often an indication that the belt is stretched. One can tighten the motor mounts a little to fix this. Make sure that only one drive has the terminator and that the terminator is the correct type. I forgot to check this and ended up damaging two disk ( luckily I'd made images ). Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Jun 8 12:14:00 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 13:14:00 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] CPM In-Reply-To: <40C606F3.107F@earthlink.net> References: <40C52F96.4090904@sc.rr.com> <40C5EBAC.7D36@earthlink.net> <40C5DAB2.8060805@sc.rr.com> <40C606F3.107F@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40C5F3D8.5070508@sc.rr.com> I'll return them as soon as I can copy them. Thanks CEW Lee Hart wrote: >Carroll Waddell wrote: > > >>Thanks a bunch Lee. >>Address is: >>Carroll E. Waddell >>2795 Raccoon Road >>Dalzell, SC 29040 >> >>Is the address shown on your email your mailing address? >> >> > >Yes, it is correct. > > > >>Let me know and I'll send you a check to pay for the postage or >>whatever. >> >> > >Don't worry about it right now. I'll mail it to you, and when you return >it, just include whatever the postage turned out to be. > >PLEASE return it within a few weeks! This is an original, not a copy! > > > >>Lee Hart wrote: >> >> >> >>>Carroll Waddell wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Does anyone in the group have the Digital Research / Zenith CPM books >>>>that I could copy? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Yes, I have them and would be happy to loan them to you. Contact me >>>directly with your address. >>> >>> > > > > From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Jun 8 12:45:38 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 10:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] CPM In-Reply-To: <40C5F3D8.5070508@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040608174538.39339.qmail@web50204.mail.yahoo.com> Is it worth mentioning (again) that the manuals are already in the archive? Jack --- Carroll Waddell wrote: > I'll return them as soon as I can copy them. > Thanks > CEW > > Lee Hart wrote: > > >Carroll Waddell wrote: > > > > > >>Thanks a bunch Lee. > >>Address is: > >>Carroll E. Waddell > >>2795 Raccoon Road > >>Dalzell, SC 29040 > >> > >>Is the address shown on your email your mailing > address? > >> > >> > > > >Yes, it is correct. > > > > > > > >>Let me know and I'll send you a check to pay for > the postage or > >>whatever. > >> > >> > > > >Don't worry about it right now. I'll mail it to > you, and when you return > >it, just include whatever the postage turned out to > be. > > > >PLEASE return it within a few weeks! This is an > original, not a copy! > > > > > > > >>Lee Hart wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Carroll Waddell wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>Does anyone in the group have the Digital > Research / Zenith CPM books > >>>>that I could copy? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>Yes, I have them and would be happy to loan them > to you. Contact me > >>>directly with your address. > >>> > >>> > > > > > > > > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Tue Jun 8 17:35:45 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 15:35:45 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] CPM References: <40C52F96.4090904@sc.rr.com> <40C5EBAC.7D36@earthlink.net> <40C5E532.2090803@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <40C63F41.4BE4@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > By the way, do you have a diskette (hard sector) that will boot > to CP/M? If you do, could you make a copy of that. Sure; I'll just leave the master disks in with the CP/M manual I'm sending you. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 8 16:09:51 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 14:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] CPM Message-ID: <200406082109.OAA02973@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Lee Before sending them off, use my tool to copy the images to a PC. We need this in the archieve. Dwight >From: "Lee Hart" > >Carroll Waddell wrote: >> By the way, do you have a diskette (hard sector) that will boot >> to CP/M? If you do, could you make a copy of that. > >Sure; I'll just leave the master disks in with the CP/M manual I'm >sending you. >-- >"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed >citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever >has!" -- Margaret Mead >-- >Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Thu Jun 10 08:02:43 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:02:43 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20040602101116.02da7548@mail.patswayne.com> References: <000601c44786$cf6e7950$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> <40BC8839.4040200@sc.rr.com> <6.1.0.6.2.20040602101116.02da7548@mail.patswayne.com> Message-ID: <40C85BF3.5070509@sc.rr.com> Pat, Do you happen to have a circuit pattern for your Z80 change? I was thinking of laying out a pattern, but thought you might already have done that. Carroll Pat Swayne wrote: > CEW wrote: > >> I just posted an article by Pat Swain on a Z80 upgrade. > > > "Swayne", actually. I had found that article and was going to scan it > myself, but you beat me to the punch. I have a correction, though. In > the caption under the schematic, change the word "isn't" to "is". I > remember making that correction when the magazine sent me the proofs, > but they missed it. > BTW, I later etched a printed circuit for the mod, which served me for > the rest of the time I used my H8. I never did buy Heath's Z80 board. > -- Pat > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From me at patswayne.com Thu Jun 10 08:09:46 2004 From: me at patswayne.com (Pat Swayne) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:09:46 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 Emulator update In-Reply-To: <40C85BF3.5070509@sc.rr.com> References: <000601c44786$cf6e7950$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> <40BC8839.4040200@sc.rr.com> <6.1.0.6.2.20040602101116.02da7548@mail.patswayne.com> <40C85BF3.5070509@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040610090827.03182eb0@mail.patswayne.com> Carroll wrote: >Do you happen to have a circuit pattern for your Z80 change? It's probably long gone by now. If I find it as I go through things (after my move), I'll let you know. -- Pat -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Thu Jun 10 16:44:52 2004 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:44:52 Subject: [sebhc] Who's going to VCF East in July? Message-ID: <1086879143@rothfus.com> (www.vintage.org) Jack, you're doing a booth, right? :-) -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Jun 10 17:21:55 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 17:21:55 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Who's going to VCF East in July? In-Reply-To: <1086879143@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <000e01c44f39$56c88ad0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> I'll be there for sure! Anyone else? We can plan a SEBHC SIG meeting. Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Eric J. Rothfus > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 4:45 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: [sebhc] Who's going to VCF East in July? > > > (www.vintage.org) > > Jack, you're doing a booth, right? :-) > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 10 18:05:07 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Update of image transfer file Message-ID: <200406102305.QAA04723@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I've just tried the H8-5 with the XCON8 combination and it has issues. I intend to correct all the combinations over the weekend. For now, use only: H8 XCON8 with H8-4 H8 PAM8 with H8-5 H89 or Z90 The problem is that the PAM8 and XCON8 both deal with the timer interrupts slightly differently for a disk timeout. I'll try to come up with something that works for all cases. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Thu Jun 10 18:20:14 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 19:20:14 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Who's going to VCF East in July? In-Reply-To: <000e01c44f39$56c88ad0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> References: <000e01c44f39$56c88ad0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <40C8ECAE.3080703@sc.rr.com> What is this? I never heard of it. CEW Jack Rubin wrote: >I'll be there for sure! >Anyone else? >We can plan a SEBHC SIG meeting. > >Jack > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of >>Eric J. Rothfus >>Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 4:45 PM >>To: sebhc at sebhc.org >>Subject: [sebhc] Who's going to VCF East in July? >> >> >>(www.vintage.org) >> >>Jack, you're doing a booth, right? :-) >> >>-- >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> >> >> > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Jun 10 19:08:58 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 19:08:58 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Who's going to VCF East in July? In-Reply-To: <40C8ECAE.3080703@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <000301c44f48$4b165190$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> click on the URL below for more info > What is this? I never heard of it. > CEW > > > >>Subject: [sebhc] Who's going to VCF East in July? > >> > >> > >>(www.vintage.org) > >> -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From garlangr at verizon.net Thu Jun 10 19:45:06 2004 From: garlangr at verizon.net (Mark Garlanger) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 19:45:06 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Who's going to VCF East in July? References: <000301c44f48$4b165190$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <00d501c44f4d$57010fe0$a301010a@BUSTER> So is it a free event? I didn't see any entrance fees/prices. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Rubin" To: Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 7:08 PM Subject: RE: [sebhc] Who's going to VCF East in July? > click on the URL below for more info > > > What is this? I never heard of it. > > CEW > > > > > > >>Subject: [sebhc] Who's going to VCF East in July? > > >> > > >> > > >>(www.vintage.org) > > >> > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Jun 10 20:25:08 2004 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:25:08 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Who's going to VCF East in July? In-Reply-To: <1086879143@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040610202458.023c1850@mail.ubanproductions.com> I'll be there. --tom At 04:44 PM 6/10/2004 +0000, you wrote: >(www.vintage.org) > >Jack, you're doing a booth, right? :-) > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Jun 11 09:08:16 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:08:16 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Who's going to VCF East in July? In-Reply-To: <00d501c44f4d$57010fe0$a301010a@BUSTER> Message-ID: <000301c44fbd$8b096b00$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> VCF West has an admission fee and a vendor's fee - but check directly with VCF for accurate info regarding VCF East. I'm copying the organizer as well on this email. Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Mark Garlanger > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 7:45 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] Who's going to VCF East in July? > > > So is it a free event? I didn't see any entrance fees/prices. > > Mark > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jack Rubin" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 7:08 PM > Subject: RE: [sebhc] Who's going to VCF East in July? > > > > click on the URL below for more info > > > > > What is this? I never heard of it. > > > CEW > > > > > > > > > >>Subject: [sebhc] Who's going to VCF East in July? > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>(www.vintage.org) > > > >> -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Fri Jun 11 13:57:47 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:57:47 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] 2 things Message-ID: <40CA00AB.8070603@sc.rr.com> 2 questions I have Has anyone run across a Mullen card extender for the H8 Does anyone know how to repair Tektronics scopes? Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Jun 11 19:22:03 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 19:22:03 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] info on VCF East Message-ID: <000001c45013$49659010$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Hi Jack. Please pass this along: Admission is $10 per person per day for full access to Speakers, the Exhibition and the Marketplace, or $5 per person per day for Exhibition and Marketplace access only. Kids 17 and under are admitted free of charge, and parking is free. Also posted to the VCF East web pages: http://www.vintage.org/2004/east/ - Jack Rubin Wilmette, Illinois USA -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Jun 11 19:23:54 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 19:23:54 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Who's going to VCF East in July? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040610202458.023c1850@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <000101c45013$8bab8150$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Tom, Will you have time to talk 8 bits or will all your words be 12 bit? BTW, thanks for putting me in touch with Duncan Brown (or vice versa)! Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Tom Uban > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 8:25 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] Who's going to VCF East in July? > > > I'll be there. > > --tom > > At 04:44 PM 6/10/2004 +0000, you wrote: > >(www.vintage.org) > >Jack, you're doing a booth, right? :-) > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jun 11 21:25:48 2004 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 21:25:48 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Who's going to VCF East in July? In-Reply-To: <000101c45013$8bab8150$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040610202458.023c1850@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040611212448.02363fc0@mail.ubanproductions.com> Jack, I imagine that there will be some eight bit time too. You are most welcome. I knew he was looking for a 6809 pod... --tom At 07:23 PM 6/11/2004 -0500, Jack Rubin wrote: >Tom, >Will you have time to talk 8 bits or will all your words be 12 bit? >BTW, thanks for putting me in touch with Duncan Brown (or vice versa)! > >Jack > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Tom Uban > > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 8:25 PM > > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > > Subject: Re: [sebhc] Who's going to VCF East in July? > > > > > > I'll be there. > > > > --tom > > > > At 04:44 PM 6/10/2004 +0000, you wrote: > > > >(www.vintage.org) > > > >Jack, you're doing a booth, right? :-) > > > >-- > >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sat Jun 12 16:21:31 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 17:21:31 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] SUCCESS Message-ID: <40CB73DB.6010600@sc.rr.com> I just got HDOS to boot on my H8. I've found out the following: 1. You don't need the H17 ROM or RAM chips on the controller board. 2. XCON8 contains the H17 ROM code which it relocates to 030.000 where it should be. 3. An H17 controller card won't work with a defective U10 chip. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Jun 12 17:04:25 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 17:04:25 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] SUCCESS In-Reply-To: <40CB73DB.6010600@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <000001c450c9$39edc970$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> fantastic! did you use a physical boot disk or were you able to use Dwight's uploader program? how did you trouble shoot your problems with U10? Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Carroll Waddell > Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 4:22 PM > To: sebhc at staunch89er.com > Subject: [sebhc] SUCCESS > > > I just got HDOS to boot on my H8. I've found out the > following: 1. You don't need the H17 ROM or RAM chips on the > controller board. 2. XCON8 contains the H17 ROM code which it > relocates to 030.000 where > it should be. > 3. An H17 controller card won't work with a defective U10 > chip. Carroll > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sat Jun 12 18:25:45 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 19:25:45 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] SUCCESS In-Reply-To: <000001c450c9$39edc970$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> References: <000001c450c9$39edc970$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <40CB90F9.7000201@sc.rr.com> My thanks go to Walter Moore who sent me a drive and an HDOS boot diskette. Lee Hart is sending me a CPM boot diskette. I have a lot of CPM software when I get to the point that I can use it again. To fix the controller board, I used a scope and the troubleshooting pages in the manual that you sent me. It led me straight to U10. Read data was going into the chip, but nothing was coming out. I'm still going to try Dwight's uploader program. I've been working with him for several days. At least, now I know my drive system works. Carroll Jack Rubin wrote: >fantastic! >did you use a physical boot disk or were you able to use Dwight's >uploader program? >how did you trouble shoot your problems with U10? > >Jack > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of >>Carroll Waddell >>Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 4:22 PM >>To: sebhc at staunch89er.com >>Subject: [sebhc] SUCCESS >> >> >>I just got HDOS to boot on my H8. I've found out the >>following: 1. You don't need the H17 ROM or RAM chips on the >>controller board. 2. XCON8 contains the H17 ROM code which it >>relocates to 030.000 where >>it should be. >>3. An H17 controller card won't work with a defective U10 >>chip. Carroll >> >>-- >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> >> >> > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Jun 12 18:38:32 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 18:38:32 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] SUCCESS In-Reply-To: <40CB90F9.7000201@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <000301c450d6$5fe568b0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> That's really great - it's what sebhc is about - people helping each other. > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Carroll Waddell > Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 6:26 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] SUCCESS > > > My thanks go to Walter Moore who sent me a drive and an HDOS > boot diskette. Lee Hart is sending me a CPM boot diskette. I > have a lot of CPM software > when I get to the point that I can use it again. > To fix the controller board, I used a scope and the troubleshooting > pages in the manual that you sent me. It led me straight to U10. Read > data was going into the chip, but nothing was coming out. > I'm still going to try Dwight's uploader program. I've been > working with > him for several days. At least, now I know my drive system > works. Carroll > > Jack Rubin wrote: > > >fantastic! > >did you use a physical boot disk or were you able to use Dwight's > >uploader program? how did you trouble shoot your problems with U10? > > > >Jack > > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > >>Carroll Waddell > >>Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 4:22 PM > >>To: sebhc at staunch89er.com > >>Subject: [sebhc] SUCCESS > >> > >> > >>I just got HDOS to boot on my H8. I've found out the > >>following: 1. You don't need the H17 ROM or RAM chips on the > >>controller board. 2. XCON8 contains the H17 ROM code which it > >>relocates to 030.000 where > >>it should be. > >>3. An H17 controller card won't work with a defective U10 > >>chip. Carroll > >> > >>-- > >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > sebhc-request at sebhc.org. > >> > >> > >> > > > >-- > >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > > > > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sun Jun 13 12:55:44 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 13:55:44 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] New CPU card Message-ID: <40CC9520.6060304@sc.rr.com> As soon as I get my H8 up and everything working correctly, I thought about building a new CPU card. Based on Pat Swayne's Z80 upgrade article, how about a new board with a Z80 processor, 64K RAM, and the extended configuration (the little board in P10) all on one card? Anyone interested? Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Sun Jun 13 15:16:43 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 13:16:43 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] New CPU card References: <40CC9520.6060304@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <40CCB62B.6332@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > > As soon as I get my H8 up and everything working correctly, I thought > about building a new CPU card. Based on Pat Swayne's Z80 upgrade > article, how about a new board with a Z80 processor, 64K RAM, and the > extended configuration (the little board in P10) all on one card? > Anyone interested? Yes! In fact, I was thinking of something similar. My thought was to put the Z80 and 64k of memory on the front panel board! Thus, *no* bus slots would be taken up for CPU or memory. We could also eliminate the discrete wiring between front panel and motherboard. The thought is that such a board could be the basis of a kit to get *new* people interested in the H8. They could build just the front panel+Z80+memory and have a working single-board computer. Add the motherboard and accessory boards to expand it into a "real" system. The other advantage to this (for present H8 owners) is that the bus can stay at 2 MHz, while all Z80-memory accesses can run at a much higher speed (8 MHz Z80s are essentially the same price as 2.5 MHz parts). For legacy support, we could even have a way to select CPUs, so you could even leave the old 8080 and memory cards in the system and run them. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sun Jun 13 14:38:44 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:38:44 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] New CPU card In-Reply-To: <40CCB62B.6332@earthlink.net> References: <40CC9520.6060304@sc.rr.com> <40CCB62B.6332@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40CCAD44.2030109@sc.rr.com> That's an interesting idea, but finding some of the parts would be difficult. The front keypad switches might could be replaced with something a little more modern. I've never found those key switches anywhere else. By the way, if you have an old H9 terminal to salvage, I'm pretty sure the H9 keyboard used the same switches as the H8 front panel. I'm sure your idea could be built, but I feel like the board would be too crowded to put together as a kit. Of course, it might still be possible. I've always believed that almost anything is possible. Carroll Lee Hart wrote: >Carroll Waddell wrote: > > >>As soon as I get my H8 up and everything working correctly, I thought >>about building a new CPU card. Based on Pat Swayne's Z80 upgrade >>article, how about a new board with a Z80 processor, 64K RAM, and the >>extended configuration (the little board in P10) all on one card? >>Anyone interested? >> >> > >Yes! In fact, I was thinking of something similar. My thought was to put >the Z80 and 64k of memory on the front panel board! Thus, *no* bus slots >would be taken up for CPU or memory. > >We could also eliminate the discrete wiring between front panel and >motherboard. The thought is that such a board could be the basis of a >kit to get *new* people interested in the H8. They could build just the >front panel+Z80+memory and have a working single-board computer. Add the >motherboard and accessory boards to expand it into a "real" system. > >The other advantage to this (for present H8 owners) is that the bus can >stay at 2 MHz, while all Z80-memory accesses can run at a much higher >speed (8 MHz Z80s are essentially the same price as 2.5 MHz parts). For >legacy support, we could even have a way to select CPUs, so you could >even leave the old 8080 and memory cards in the system and run them. > > From Fred11da at aol.com Sun Jun 13 23:09:08 2004 From: Fred11da at aol.com (Fred11da at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 00:09:08 EDT Subject: [sebhc] New CPU card Message-ID: <96.d620b1e.2dfe7ee4@aol.com> Hello to all: And where does one find a copy of Pat Swayne's Z80 upgrade? Was it in an issue of Remark? I like the idea of a Z80 with 64K with the extended card as an all in one item. David ========= In a message dated 6/13/04 10:58:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com writes: << As soon as I get my H8 up and everything working correctly, I thought about building a new CPU card. Based on Pat Swayne's Z80 upgrade article, how about a new board with a Z80 processor, 64K RAM, and the extended configuration (the little board in P10) all on one card? Anyone interested? Carroll >> -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Sun Jun 13 23:42:36 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 21:42:36 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] New CPU card References: <40CC9520.6060304@sc.rr.com> <40CCB62B.6332@earthlink.net> <40CCAD44.2030109@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <40CD2CBC.337@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > That's an interesting idea, but finding some of the parts would be > difficult. The front keypad switches might could be replaced with > something a little more modern. I've never found those key switches > anywhere else. I think that is naturally what you would do. They are a standard size and shape, and so would be easy to replace with something modern. At worst, it will have a different PCB layout footprint, but that doesn't matter if we are making a new PCB anyway. > I'm sure your idea could be built, but I feel like the board > would be too crowded to put together as a kit. Of course, it > might still be possible. I've always believed that almost > anything is possible. The front panel board is *very* uncrowded. I have a spreadsheet PCB size estimator, and it says the component density of a combined Z80+memory+front panel board is still less than 50%. So, I think it can be done without making it hard to hand-assemble. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From me at patswayne.com Mon Jun 14 08:23:25 2004 From: me at patswayne.com (Pat Swayne) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:23:25 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] New CPU card In-Reply-To: <96.d620b1e.2dfe7ee4@aol.com> References: <96.d620b1e.2dfe7ee4@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040614092250.032557c0@mail.patswayne.com> David wrote: >And where does one find a copy of Pat Swayne's Z80 upgrade? In the SEBHC archives. -- Pat -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Jun 14 08:43:45 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:43:45 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] New CPU card In-Reply-To: <96.d620b1e.2dfe7ee4@aol.com> References: <96.d620b1e.2dfe7ee4@aol.com> Message-ID: <40CDAB91.7060009@sc.rr.com> This upgrade article is in the archive - - under 'articles' I think. CEW Fred11da at aol.com wrote: >Hello to all: > >And where does one find a copy of Pat Swayne's Z80 upgrade? >Was it in an issue of Remark? > >I like the idea of a Z80 with 64K with the extended card as >an all in one item. > >David >========= >In a message dated 6/13/04 10:58:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com writes: > ><< As soon as I get my H8 up and everything working correctly, I thought > about building a new CPU card. Based on Pat Swayne's Z80 upgrade > article, how about a new board with a Z80 processor, 64K RAM, and the > extended configuration (the little board in P10) all on one card? > Anyone interested? > Carroll > >> >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Jun 14 08:47:46 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:47:46 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] ZIP Message-ID: <40CDAC82.8020105@sc.rr.com> Does anyone have an idea about what commands are sent to a zip drive? I thought that might be a good split between disk and diskette drives. ZIP disk are easy to use. Perhaps one of the external ones that connects to a parallel port could be used with the H8 CEW -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From norberto.collado at hp.com Mon Jun 14 08:55:54 2004 From: norberto.collado at hp.com (Collado, Norberto) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:55:54 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] ZIP Message-ID: <14013A008AB26E42B1FC18DECDCE212404187882@tayexc14.americas.cpqcorp.net> Hello Carroll, I have a parallel port Zip Drive (used only once) in its original box that I don't need anymore. If you are interested, I could mail it to you ASAP. Regards, Norberto Collado -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Carroll Waddell Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 9:48 AM To: sebhc at staunch89er.com Subject: [sebhc] ZIP Does anyone have an idea about what commands are sent to a zip drive? I thought that might be a good split between disk and diskette drives. ZIP disk are easy to use. Perhaps one of the external ones that connects to a parallel port could be used with the H8 CEW -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Jun 14 08:45:01 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:45:01 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] New CPU card In-Reply-To: <40CD2CBC.337@earthlink.net> References: <40CC9520.6060304@sc.rr.com> <40CCB62B.6332@earthlink.net> <40CCAD44.2030109@sc.rr.com> <40CD2CBC.337@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40CDABDD.4090909@sc.rr.com> Sounds good to me. CEW Lee Hart wrote: >Carroll Waddell wrote: > > >>That's an interesting idea, but finding some of the parts would be >>difficult. The front keypad switches might could be replaced with >>something a little more modern. I've never found those key switches >>anywhere else. >> >> > >I think that is naturally what you would do. They are a standard size >and shape, and so would be easy to replace with something modern. At >worst, it will have a different PCB layout footprint, but that doesn't >matter if we are making a new PCB anyway. > > > >>I'm sure your idea could be built, but I feel like the board >>would be too crowded to put together as a kit. Of course, it >>might still be possible. I've always believed that almost >>anything is possible. >> >> > >The front panel board is *very* uncrowded. I have a spreadsheet PCB size >estimator, and it says the component density of a combined >Z80+memory+front panel board is still less than 50%. So, I think it can >be done without making it hard to hand-assemble. > > From norberto.collado at hp.com Mon Jun 14 08:55:54 2004 From: norberto.collado at hp.com (Collado, Norberto) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:55:54 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] ZIP Message-ID: <14013A008AB26E42B1FC18DECDCE212404187882@tayexc14.americas.cpqcorp.net> Hello Carroll, I have a parallel port Zip Drive (used only once) in its original box that I don't need anymore. If you are interested, I could mail it to you ASAP. Regards, Norberto Collado -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Carroll Waddell Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 9:48 AM To: sebhc at staunch89er.com Subject: [sebhc] ZIP Does anyone have an idea about what commands are sent to a zip drive? I thought that might be a good split between disk and diskette drives. ZIP disk are easy to use. Perhaps one of the external ones that connects to a parallel port could be used with the H8 CEW -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com Mon Jun 14 09:35:09 2004 From: RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com (West, Ronald S.) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:35:09 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] New CPU card Message-ID: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9CB0@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Looks like I am challenged as I cannot find this article. Can someone assist with a path to it. Thanks, Ron > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Carroll Waddell > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 9:44 AM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] New CPU card > > > This upgrade article is in the archive - - under 'articles' I > think. CEW > > Fred11da at aol.com wrote: > > >Hello to all: > > > >And where does one find a copy of Pat Swayne's Z80 upgrade? > Was it in > >an issue of Remark? > > > >I like the idea of a Z80 with 64K with the extended card as > >an all in one item. > > > >David > >========= > >In a message dated 6/13/04 10:58:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > >CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com writes: > > > ><< As soon as I get my H8 up and everything working correctly, I > >thought > > about building a new CPU card. Based on Pat Swayne's Z80 upgrade > > article, how about a new board with a Z80 processor, 64K > RAM, and the > > extended configuration (the little board in P10) all on one card? > > Anyone interested? > > Carroll > > >> > >-- > >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > > > > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From me at patswayne.com Mon Jun 14 10:25:09 2004 From: me at patswayne.com (Pat Swayne) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:25:09 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] New CPU card In-Reply-To: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9CB0@mcl-its-exs03.mai l.saic.com> References: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9CB0@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040614112257.0324a5e0@mail.patswayne.com> Ron wrote: >Looks like I am challenged as I cannot find this article. Can someone assist >with a path to it. FTP to archive.sebhc.org. Sign on with user name heathkit and password hdos8bit. Go to the doc/hardware/supplimental directory. The article is called Z80-to-H8.pdf -- Pat -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From rubinj at eths.k12.il.us Mon Jun 14 10:32:46 2004 From: rubinj at eths.k12.il.us (Rubin, Jack) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:32:46 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] New CPU card Message-ID: <647FFA64CB375949B9DDD0640A42B15701731FE5@ns-exchange.eths.k12.il.us> To look at the article on Pat Swayne's Z80 mod, use this link - www.sebhc.org/archive/documents/hardware/supplemental/Z80-to-H8.pdf I'll also add some pictures of a card with the mod installed. One of the things we're going to do Real Soon Now is set up archive indexing! Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: West, Ronald S. [mailto:RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com] > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 9:35 AM > To: 'sebhc at sebhc.org' > Subject: RE: [sebhc] New CPU card > > > Looks like I am challenged as I cannot find this article. Can > someone assist > with a path to it. > > Thanks, > > Ron > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > > Carroll Waddell > > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 9:44 AM > > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > > Subject: Re: [sebhc] New CPU card > > > > > > This upgrade article is in the archive - - under 'articles' I > > think. CEW > > > > Fred11da at aol.com wrote: > > > > >Hello to all: > > > > > >And where does one find a copy of Pat Swayne's Z80 upgrade? > > Was it in > > >an issue of Remark? > > > > > >I like the idea of a Z80 with 64K with the extended card as > > >an all in one item. > > > > > >David > > >========= > > >In a message dated 6/13/04 10:58:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > >CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com writes: > > > > > ><< As soon as I get my H8 up and everything working correctly, I > > >thought > > > about building a new CPU card. Based on Pat Swayne's Z80 upgrade > > > article, how about a new board with a Z80 processor, 64K > > RAM, and the > > > extended configuration (the little board in P10) all on one card? > > > Anyone interested? > > > Carroll > > > >> > > >-- > > >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > sebhc-request at sebhc.org. > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Jun 14 16:08:53 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:08:53 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] ZIP In-Reply-To: <14013A008AB26E42B1FC18DECDCE212404187882@tayexc14.americas.cpqcorp.net> References: <14013A008AB26E42B1FC18DECDCE212404187882@tayexc14.americas.cpqcorp.net> Message-ID: <40CE13E5.5060207@sc.rr.com> Thanks a bunch, but I already have 2 of them. I was just wondering if there were some way to use them on an H8. Carroll Collado, Norberto wrote: >Hello Carroll, > > I have a parallel port Zip Drive (used only once) in its >original box that I don't need anymore. If you are interested, I could >mail it to you ASAP. > >Regards, > >Norberto Collado > >-----Original Message----- >From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Carroll >Waddell >Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 9:48 AM >To: sebhc at staunch89er.com >Subject: [sebhc] ZIP > > >Does anyone have an idea about what commands are sent to a zip drive? I >thought that might be a good split between disk and diskette drives. ZIP > >disk are easy to use. Perhaps one of the external ones that connects to >a parallel port could be used with the H8 >CEW > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Jun 14 19:37:18 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:37:18 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Image transfer problems In-Reply-To: <200406150028.RAA08991@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <000101c45270$ea36ef20$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> I'm really itching to work with you guys, but right now my son is still inhabiting my "workshop". He goes back to school next weekend, so I should be back on line with the Heathkit world then. Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Dwight K. Elvey > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:29 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: [sebhc] Image transfer problems > > > Hi All > I'm working right now with Carroll to solve his issues > with my program. I suspect that it may be an issue > with his serial being a little flaky but it may also > be some RAM location that I'm not setting or resetting > correctly. We are working with a XCON8 and H8-5 right now, > one of the configurations that I'd not checked. I've checked > the PAM8 and H8-5 as well as the XCON8 and H8-4. I do have > some code working on my machine with the XCON8 and H8-5 that > I did over the weekend but I still am a little suspicious of > some RAM that isn't being initialized correctly. My code > depends on the H17 code heavily and there are a lot of > variables to worry about. I'll be doing some testing tonight > where I'll clear the RAM with 000's and then with 377's to > make sure I didn't miss something. If anyone else can try > the code and report back, I'd like to hear about it. I'd like > to make the next release as robust as I can. Dwight > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 14 19:28:38 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Image transfer problems Message-ID: <200406150028.RAA08991@clulw009.amd.com> Hi All I'm working right now with Carroll to solve his issues with my program. I suspect that it may be an issue with his serial being a little flaky but it may also be some RAM location that I'm not setting or resetting correctly. We are working with a XCON8 and H8-5 right now, one of the configurations that I'd not checked. I've checked the PAM8 and H8-5 as well as the XCON8 and H8-4. I do have some code working on my machine with the XCON8 and H8-5 that I did over the weekend but I still am a little suspicious of some RAM that isn't being initialized correctly. My code depends on the H17 code heavily and there are a lot of variables to worry about. I'll be doing some testing tonight where I'll clear the RAM with 000's and then with 377's to make sure I didn't miss something. If anyone else can try the code and report back, I'd like to hear about it. I'd like to make the next release as robust as I can. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Jun 14 20:46:48 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:46:48 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Image transfer problems In-Reply-To: <000101c45270$ea36ef20$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> References: <000101c45270$ea36ef20$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <40CE5508.50303@sc.rr.com> TO Dwight & Jack: I just thought of something. The XCON8 rom I've heard you talking about is pn 444-70. My XCON8 ROM is pn 444-74. I don't know if this makes any difference at all. CEW Jack Rubin wrote: >I'm really itching to work with you guys, but right now my son is still >inhabiting my "workshop". He goes back to school next weekend, so I >should be back on line with the Heathkit world then. > >Jack > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of >>Dwight K. Elvey >>Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:29 PM >>To: sebhc at sebhc.org >>Subject: [sebhc] Image transfer problems >> >> >>Hi All >> I'm working right now with Carroll to solve his issues >>with my program. I suspect that it may be an issue >>with his serial being a little flaky but it may also >>be some RAM location that I'm not setting or resetting >>correctly. We are working with a XCON8 and H8-5 right now, >>one of the configurations that I'd not checked. I've checked >>the PAM8 and H8-5 as well as the XCON8 and H8-4. I do have >>some code working on my machine with the XCON8 and H8-5 that >>I did over the weekend but I still am a little suspicious of >>some RAM that isn't being initialized correctly. My code >>depends on the H17 code heavily and there are a lot of >>variables to worry about. I'll be doing some testing tonight >>where I'll clear the RAM with 000's and then with 377's to >>make sure I didn't miss something. If anyone else can try >>the code and report back, I'd like to hear about it. I'd like >>to make the next release as robust as I can. Dwight >> >> >>-- >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> >> >> > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 14 21:18:30 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Image transfer problems Message-ID: <200406150218.TAA09036@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Carroll This could be an issue. That is why I'd like you to use the start at 030.000 instead of the "1". I'd like you to watch the DE register because that is the address for loading the code from the PC into the H8. Before hitting the GO, just select the DE registers when running the boot strap. Dwight From: "Carroll Waddell" > >TO Dwight & Jack: > >I just thought of something. The XCON8 rom I've heard you talking about >is pn 444-70. >My XCON8 ROM is pn 444-74. >I don't know if this makes any difference at all. >CEW > >Jack Rubin wrote: > >>I'm really itching to work with you guys, but right now my son is still >>inhabiting my "workshop". He goes back to school next weekend, so I >>should be back on line with the Heathkit world then. >> >>Jack >> >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of >>>Dwight K. Elvey >>>Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:29 PM >>>To: sebhc at sebhc.org >>>Subject: [sebhc] Image transfer problems >>> >>> >>>Hi All >>> I'm working right now with Carroll to solve his issues >>>with my program. I suspect that it may be an issue >>>with his serial being a little flaky but it may also >>>be some RAM location that I'm not setting or resetting >>>correctly. We are working with a XCON8 and H8-5 right now, >>>one of the configurations that I'd not checked. I've checked >>>the PAM8 and H8-5 as well as the XCON8 and H8-4. I do have >>>some code working on my machine with the XCON8 and H8-5 that >>>I did over the weekend but I still am a little suspicious of >>>some RAM that isn't being initialized correctly. My code >>>depends on the H17 code heavily and there are a lot of >>>variables to worry about. I'll be doing some testing tonight >>>where I'll clear the RAM with 000's and then with 377's to >>>make sure I didn't miss something. If anyone else can try >>>the code and report back, I'd like to hear about it. I'd like >>>to make the next release as robust as I can. Dwight >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >>> >>> >>> >> >>-- >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> >> >> -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Jun 14 21:33:58 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:33:58 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Image transfer problems In-Reply-To: <40CE5508.50303@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <000001c45281$364755c0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Carroll, The XCON manual lists 444-70 and 444-74 as "equivalent" but it would be nice to see a ROM dump of your -74 to see if there is any difference. Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Carroll Waddell > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 8:47 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] Image transfer problems > > > TO Dwight & Jack: > > I just thought of something. The XCON8 rom I've heard you > talking about > is pn 444-70. > My XCON8 ROM is pn 444-74. > I don't know if this makes any difference at all. > CEW > > Jack Rubin wrote: > > >I'm really itching to work with you guys, but right now my > son is still > >inhabiting my "workshop". He goes back to school next weekend, so I > >should be back on line with the Heathkit world then. > > > >Jack > > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > >>Dwight K. Elvey > >>Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:29 PM > >>To: sebhc at sebhc.org > >>Subject: [sebhc] Image transfer problems > >> > >> > >>Hi All > >> I'm working right now with Carroll to solve his issues > >>with my program. I suspect that it may be an issue > >>with his serial being a little flaky but it may also > >>be some RAM location that I'm not setting or resetting > >>correctly. We are working with a XCON8 and H8-5 right now, > >>one of the configurations that I'd not checked. I've checked > >>the PAM8 and H8-5 as well as the XCON8 and H8-4. I do have > >>some code working on my machine with the XCON8 and H8-5 that > >>I did over the weekend but I still am a little suspicious of > >>some RAM that isn't being initialized correctly. My code > >>depends on the H17 code heavily and there are a lot of > >>variables to worry about. I'll be doing some testing tonight > >>where I'll clear the RAM with 000's and then with 377's to > >>make sure I didn't miss something. If anyone else can try > >>the code and report back, I'd like to hear about it. I'd like > >>to make the next release as robust as I can. Dwight > >> > >> > >>-- > >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > sebhc-request at sebhc.org. > >> > >> > >> > > > >-- > >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > > > > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 14 21:49:08 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Image transfer problems Message-ID: <200406150249.TAA09055@clulw009.amd.com> Hi If you try to dump from a programmer, make sure to disconnect the VPP or if your programmer lets you, set it to 5v. If you disconnect, wire it to +5v. I've not found the magic combination to do the full dump but I was able to get the XCON8 half with the generic 2732 setup and VPP set to +5V. I've made up a test socket to play with these pins to see what addressing they do that is different than the EPROM. The mask ROMs often swap selects with address lines. It might even be the VPP pin that is A11. The A11 pin seems to be a select pin on the ROM I have. I just haven't had time to play with it yet. Dwight >From: "Jack Rubin" > >Carroll, > >The XCON manual lists 444-70 and 444-74 as "equivalent" but it would be >nice to see a ROM dump of your -74 to see if there is any difference. > >Jack > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of >> Carroll Waddell >> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 8:47 PM >> To: sebhc at sebhc.org >> Subject: Re: [sebhc] Image transfer problems >> >> >> TO Dwight & Jack: >> >> I just thought of something. The XCON8 rom I've heard you >> talking about >> is pn 444-70. >> My XCON8 ROM is pn 444-74. >> I don't know if this makes any difference at all. >> CEW >> >> Jack Rubin wrote: >> >> >I'm really itching to work with you guys, but right now my >> son is still >> >inhabiting my "workshop". He goes back to school next weekend, so I >> >should be back on line with the Heathkit world then. >> > >> >Jack >> > >> > >> > >> >>-----Original Message----- >> >>From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of >> >>Dwight K. Elvey >> >>Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:29 PM >> >>To: sebhc at sebhc.org >> >>Subject: [sebhc] Image transfer problems >> >> >> >> >> >>Hi All >> >> I'm working right now with Carroll to solve his issues >> >>with my program. I suspect that it may be an issue >> >>with his serial being a little flaky but it may also >> >>be some RAM location that I'm not setting or resetting >> >>correctly. We are working with a XCON8 and H8-5 right now, >> >>one of the configurations that I'd not checked. I've checked >> >>the PAM8 and H8-5 as well as the XCON8 and H8-4. I do have >> >>some code working on my machine with the XCON8 and H8-5 that >> >>I did over the weekend but I still am a little suspicious of >> >>some RAM that isn't being initialized correctly. My code >> >>depends on the H17 code heavily and there are a lot of >> >>variables to worry about. I'll be doing some testing tonight >> >>where I'll clear the RAM with 000's and then with 377's to >> >>make sure I didn't miss something. If anyone else can try >> >>the code and report back, I'd like to hear about it. I'd like >> >>to make the next release as robust as I can. Dwight >> >> >> >> >> >>-- >> >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> sebhc-request at sebhc.org. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >-- >> >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> > >> > >> > >> > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 14 21:57:07 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:57:07 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] HDOS disks Message-ID: <200406150257.i5F2v2Gi091526@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp800.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jun 2004 02:57:02 -0000 My first post to the list. I learned of it from a user who had bid on an H89 on e-bay and I contacted him. Some of you might remember me as the author of EMULATE and some hardware for the H89. My company name went from Analytical Products to ANAPRO Corp. Alas, it has been a very long time since I worked in the Heath arena and I now need some help remembering! I lost (as in probably threw away) my original Heath CP/M and HDOS disk. However, working boot disks are still around. What I don't remember is what files were on the HDOS 2 master distribution disks. Can anyone help me with this? In particular what would a soft-sector boot disk have? If anyone still has interest in the EMULATE or CPC software, I would be happy to provide it. I also have ZCPR/Z-System, but I don't know if it is free to distribute since it was a copyrighted (not by me) software. Thank you. Peter Shkabara ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Jun 14 22:12:34 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:12:34 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] HDOS disks In-Reply-To: <200406150257.i5F2v2Gi091526@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <000301c45286$9b373b80$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Peter, Great to hear from you and welcome to the list! I'm sure someone will be able to provide directory listings of the distribution disks quite quickly but if not, I'll get them for you this weekend. I'd love to add any software you might be able to provide to the archives; if you're not set up to upload images directly, I can make copies of any 5 1/4" disks you might be willing to share and return the originals to you. Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 9:57 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: [sebhc] HDOS disks > > > My first post to the list. I learned of it from a user who > had bid on an H89 on e-bay and I contacted him. Some of you > might remember me as the author of EMULATE and some hardware > for the H89. My company name went from Analytical Products to > ANAPRO Corp. Alas, it has been a very long time since I > worked in the Heath arena and I now need some help remembering! > > I lost (as in probably threw away) my original Heath CP/M and > HDOS disk. However, working boot disks are still around. What > I don't remember is what files were on the HDOS 2 master > distribution disks. Can anyone help me with this? In > particular what would a soft-sector boot disk have? > > If anyone still has interest in the EMULATE or CPC software, > I would be happy to provide it. I also have ZCPR/Z-System, > but I don't know if it is free to distribute since it was a > copyrighted (not by me) software. > > Thank you. > > Peter Shkabara > ----------------------------------------------------------- > peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 15 08:31:56 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 06:31:56 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] HDOS disks In-Reply-To: <000301c45286$9b373b80$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <200406151518.i5FFIT1l003854@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp800.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jun 2004 13:31:49 -0000 Hello Jack, Thank you for the welcome. I would be happy to upload the images of my software, but I need to know what format the images should be in. Are we talking about creating a disk under the Windows environment? Presently I don't have a 5 1/4 inch disk on my Windows machine, although I could add one if needed. However, all of my software had long ago been transferred to my hard disk so I could upload the programs themselves. Please advise how this is handled. I used to use a Z80-CP/M emulator on my PC, but that software is no longer compatible with the new hardware and OS environment! I thought of directing this message only to you, but then decided that others on the list may be in a position to give me proper directions on handling HDOS and CP/M format software in the "new age." Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -----Original Message----- > I'd love to add any software you might be able to provide to the > archives; if you're not set up to upload images directly, I can make > copies of any 5 1/4" disks you might be willing to share and > return the > originals to you. > > Jack -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Tue Jun 15 12:20:08 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 10:20:08 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] HDOS disks References: <200406150257.i5F2v2Gi091526@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <40CF2FC8.1619@earthlink.net> Peter wrote: > > My first post to the list. I learned of it from a user who had bid on an H89 > on e-bay and I contacted him. Some of you might remember me as the author of > EMULATE and some hardware for the H89. My company name went from Analytical > Products to ANAPRO Corp. Alas, it has been a very long time since I worked > in the Heath arena and I now need some help remembering! > > I lost (as in probably threw away) my original Heath CP/M and HDOS disk. > However, working boot disks are still around. What I don't remember is what > files were on the HDOS 2 master distribution disks. Can anyone help me with > this? In particular what would a soft-sector boot disk have? > > If anyone still has interest in the EMULATE or CPC software, I would be > happy to provide it. I also have ZCPR/Z-System, but I don't know if it is > free to distribute since it was a copyrighted (not by me) software. > > Thank you. > > Peter Shkabara Welcome, Peter! It's great to hear from you. I still use your CPC program (CP/M to PC; lets and H89 running CP/M read 360k PC DOS disks). It's the only way I can read a 360k DOS disk any more (none of my PCs have a 360k drive, so I read it on the H89 and serially transfer it to the PC). -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From ab31 at juno.com Tue Jun 15 13:14:56 2004 From: ab31 at juno.com (ab31 at juno.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:14:56 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] what's this emulator? References: <200405240206.i4O26cU9098496@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <20040615.141459.4478.0.ab31@juno.com> Thanks to those who replied to my message on 05/23/04. To Dave Dunfield: The Altair emulator I ran was the SIMH version which needs Windows 95 and newer. I'm impressed with the support for hard disks, banked memory for use with MP/M, and the choice of 8080 or Z80 processor. The main problem it has involves the terminal emulation. It works better with Telnet than with a DOS window but Telnet doesn't have a very complete set of terminal functions. I'm glad that you have MS-DOS Altair and H8 emulators. That helps to make it compatible with a lot of computers. I haven't tried them yet. Thanks to Lee Hart for tips on fixing my Heath H89. I plan to keep your message handy until I take the H89 out of storage. I think that "Super89" might be something I saw printed on the motherboard. Thanks to Roger Svoboda for help in fighting spyware and viruses. I tried running Norton Antivirus 2001 by booting from a CD-ROM and it didn't find anything. Maybe it would be better to try it with an updated virus signature file but I think my computer refused to install NAV on my hard disk. I ran Spybot Search & Destroy and it didn't find much, just DSSAgent, Alexa Related, and some tracking cookies. I deactivated DSSAgent a long time ago by adjusting the Registry so it wouldn't automatically run when Windows started. Just yesterday I found something that might be important. I used the FC command to check if the files in C:\WINDOWS\SYSBCKUP\ were the same as the files in C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\ and discovered that the file URL.DLL is not the same in the two directories. I used these commands in MS-DOS without starting Windows (I pressed F8 when the computer was starting up and chose the option to run the command prompt only). CD \WINDOWS\SYSBCKUP FC *.* \WINDOWS\SYSTEM\*.* This alerted me to differences in the two copies of "URL.DLL". Then I used FC with just the two copies of URL.DLL and redirected it to I file that I could examine. Here is a shortened version of it. Comparing files URL.DLL and \windows\system\url.dll 00000118: D2 0E 00000119: 0A C6 0000011A: 02 01 00002000: EA AF 00002001: 03 16 ... 00002302: 01 F6 00002303: 00 BF 0000F8B4: 00 BC 0000F8B5: 00 83 ... 0000F932: 00 FF 0000F933: 00 FF It appears that something has changed the file URL.DLL in three areas. The file size and date is the same in the two copies of URL.DLL. I think that altered system files might be common now. Recently I checked a friend's Windows 98 system using the System File Checker and it found that the files MMMIXER.DLL and USER.EXE were altered. After I replaced MMMIXER.DLL with the original version, the computer automatically put back the altered version. When I replaced USER.EXE with the original file, Windows would not run so I had to let it use the altered version (I saved a copy in another directory). Later the owner formatted the hard disk and reinstalled Windows and lost the modified files that I tried to save. I would have liked to keep copies for research. I should have copied them to a floppy disk. My Compaq system has Windows 95 and there is no System File Checker. I would like to find a program that will find the CRC of each system file and check if it is correct for that version of the file. I don't know if such a program exists but it would seem like a good feature in an antivirus program. I have Quarterdeck Virusweep installed and it checks CRC values for changes but if an EXE file is deleted and then replaced with a different version, it just updates the CRC and doesn't give me any warning. It does give me a warning when a program is modifying an existing EXE file or renaming a data file to an EXE file. I need something that is more reliable about notifying me when unwanted changes happen. I don't know if it is safe to replace just that file (URL.DLL) on my system. I'm afraid that if there are several parts of this program and I eliminate just one part, the other parts might do something harmful. Yesterday I found an interesting new book about this subject in the library. It's called "MALWARE Fighting Malicious Code" and was written by Ed Skoudis. It has some tips on protecting computers from these things. It seems like the common ways to get spyware are running executable e-mail attachments and allowing ActiveX to run in Internet Explorer. There are probably also risks in using Java, Javascript and Visual BASIC Script which are normally available to web pages in Internet Explorer. Even HTML e-mail can cause ActiveX controls to run and it may have more ability to do damage because according to what I read, e-mail uses using IE security settings in the local network zone instead of the internet zone. I plan to keep doing research and running other tests to figure out what nasty program I have. If it's something unknown, I want to spread the word to organizations that try to stop spyware. For now, I avoid the web on this computer and run my old version of Juno e-mail so HTML doesn't do anything except make my screen messy. Thanks also to Jack Rubin for telling me about the SEBHC archives. I downloaded a manual for HDOS 3 and the update for the Macintosh H8 emulator so far. I used the library computer for that. Andy ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From me at patswayne.com Tue Jun 15 13:40:48 2004 From: me at patswayne.com (Pat Swayne) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:40:48 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] what's this emulator? In-Reply-To: <20040615.141459.4478.0.ab31@juno.com> References: <200405240206.i4O26cU9098496@gatekeeper.evocative.com> <20040615.141459.4478.0.ab31@juno.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040615143720.031ecb70@mail.patswayne.com> Andy wrote: > Maybe it would be better to try it with an updated virus signature file Go to this address: http://vil.nai.com/vil/stinger/ Click on "Download Stinger.exe", and when you have downloaded it, run it. It will scan faster than most virus programs, because it only scans for recent viruses. And it's free. -- Pat -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From ab31 at juno.com Tue Jun 15 13:57:45 2004 From: ab31 at juno.com (ab31 at juno.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:57:45 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] ZIP References: <14013A008AB26E42B1FC18DECDCE212404187882@tayexc14.americas.cpqcorp.net> Message-ID: <20040615.145746.4478.1.ab31@juno.com> >Does anyone have an idea about what commands are sent to a zip drive? I have a parallel port zip drive rescued from a garbage can. I believe it uses SCSI commands since it uses an SCSI driver. It normally transfers only four bits at a time because old PC parallel ports had only four status signals that could be used for input. There is also a faster mode (Parallel Port Accelerator) which probably uses the abilities of EPP mode (enhanced parallel port) to transfer eight bits at a time. Is the H8 able to input data from a parallel port? Norberto, I'd be interested in having a second zip drive so I could leave one connected to my home computer and use another for helping friends move or backup big files. I would be happy to pay about $20 for it. Andy ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From norberto.collado at hp.com Tue Jun 15 21:44:46 2004 From: norberto.collado at hp.com (Collado, Norberto) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:44:46 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] ZIP Message-ID: <14013A008AB26E42B1FC18DECDCE212404187895@tayexc14.americas.cpqcorp.net> Hi Andy, Not a problem is all yours. The unit is 100% operational. Send me your address to mail it to you and after you had verified that is working, then feel free to pay the $20.00 at your own convenience. As an extra bonus I will through in a "Compaq Linux" license plate with the New Hampshire "Live Free or Die" message. Norberto -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org]On Behalf Of ab31 at juno.com Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 2:58 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] ZIP >Does anyone have an idea about what commands are sent to a zip drive? I have a parallel port zip drive rescued from a garbage can. I believe it uses SCSI commands since it uses an SCSI driver. It normally transfers only four bits at a time because old PC parallel ports had only four status signals that could be used for input. There is also a faster mode (Parallel Port Accelerator) which probably uses the abilities of EPP mode (enhanced parallel port) to transfer eight bits at a time. Is the H8 able to input data from a parallel port? Norberto, I'd be interested in having a second zip drive so I could leave one connected to my home computer and use another for helping friends move or backup big files. I would be happy to pay about $20 for it. Andy ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 16 13:41:14 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:41:14 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] Re: LISP/80 for Heath Kit computers Message-ID: Dwight just submitted a LISP for HDOS disk image. I added it to the archives under disk-images/other. It was submitted in a ZIP package so I just left it that way. Permission for unrestricted release was given by Walt Bilofsky, the original author. Cheers, - Steven _________________________________________________________________ Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter to win a trip to NY http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Wed Jun 16 15:06:48 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:06:48 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Re: LISP/80 for Heath Kit computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D0A858.8000809@sc.rr.com> I have some other programs by Walt Bilofsky. If he agrees, I'll upload it. They are: ACCELERATE 8/16 (CP/M emulation for a PC) MEDIA MASTER (Disk-To-Disk Format Conversion Software) I used ACCELERATE for a long time after getting my first PC so that I could run the software that I had written for my H8. Carroll Steven Parker wrote: > Dwight just submitted a LISP for HDOS disk image. I added it to the > archives under disk-images/other. It was submitted in a ZIP package > so I just left it that way. > > Permission for unrestricted release was given by Walt Bilofsky, the > original author. > > Cheers, > > - Steven > > _________________________________________________________________ > Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter > to win a trip to NY > http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/ > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Jun 16 16:08:48 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Walt Bilofsky In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040616210848.57757.qmail@web53701.mail.yahoo.com> Please read my previous message (I'm guessing we cross-posted) - that's exactly what I did. Jack --- Steven Parker wrote: > >I have some other programs by Walt Bilofsky. If he > agrees, I'll upload it. > > I remember Walt being a prolific developer of H8 > stuff, some of it was > released by HUG and Softstuff. Maybe someone > (Jack?) should contact Walt > and explain SEBHC to him. It's possible he'd > release his entire collection > to us. > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail > from any Web page ? FREE > download! > http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > sebhc-request at sebhc.org. > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From rubinj at eths.k12.il.us Wed Jun 16 15:54:01 2004 From: rubinj at eths.k12.il.us (Rubin, Jack) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:54:01 -0500 Subject: Software Toolworks software - was [sebhc] Re: LISP/80 for Heath Kit computers Message-ID: <647FFA64CB375949B9DDD0640A42B157E7D683@ns-exchange.eths.k12.il.us> Walt has generously given us (SEBHC) permission to share all _his_ 8-bit Software Toolworks software targeted for Heathkit computers. Note that not all software with the Software Toolworks label was written by Walt himself. If anyone has software that falls within the above guidelines that you wish to share, please upload it and Steven or I will place it in the archives. Software that runs on a PC (i.e. that is 16 bit) is not included in this permission and thus will not be shared via the SEBHC archives. Honoring the wishes of original software creators is one of the cornerstones of the SEBHC project; we lost many fine software authors to unauthorized "sharing" in the good old days and I don't want to repeat the process here, even though revenue is no longer an issue. Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: Carroll Waddell [mailto:CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 3:07 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] Re: LISP/80 for Heath Kit computers > > > I have some other programs by Walt Bilofsky. If he agrees, > I'll upload it. > They are: > ACCELERATE 8/16 (CP/M emulation for a PC) > MEDIA MASTER (Disk-To-Disk Format Conversion Software) > > I used ACCELERATE for a long time after getting my first PC so that I > could run the software that I had written for my H8. > Carroll > > Steven Parker wrote: > > > Dwight just submitted a LISP for HDOS disk image. I added > it to the > > archives under disk-images/other. It was submitted in a > ZIP package > > so I just left it that way. > > > > Permission for unrestricted release was given by Walt Bilofsky, the > > original author. > > > > Cheers, > > > > - Steven > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend > and enter > > to win a trip to NY > > > http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497a ve/direct/01/ > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 16 15:54:46 2004 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:54:46 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] Walt Bilofsky Message-ID: >I have some other programs by Walt Bilofsky. If he agrees, I'll upload it. I remember Walt being a prolific developer of H8 stuff, some of it was released by HUG and Softstuff. Maybe someone (Jack?) should contact Walt and explain SEBHC to him. It's possible he'd release his entire collection to us. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page ? FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 16 19:01:06 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software Toolworks software - was [sebhc] Re: LISP/80 for Heath Kit computers Message-ID: <200406170001.RAA11108@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Rubin, Jack" > >Walt has generously given us (SEBHC) permission to share all _his_ 8-bit Software Toolworks software targeted for Heathkit computers. Note that not all software with the Software Toolworks label was written by Walt himself. If anyone has software that falls within the above guidelines that you wish to share, please upload it and Steven or I will place it in the archives. Software that runs on a PC (i.e. that is 16 bit) is not included in this permission and thus will not be shared via the SEBHC archives. Hi Jack This is really great. I should have asked Walt Bilofsky about this when I asked about the LISP/80. I regret that this is only one of the two Software Toolworks disk that I have. The other is a Chess program. I'm still trying to contact that author. Is there anyone on the list from Mobile AL that would consider trying to contact the fellow? I forgot his name but he is one of the major Chess program writers. I do have a name and address someplace. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Jun 17 11:09:51 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:09:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [sebhc] Source for 10-sector disks? Group purchase? Message-ID: <20040617160951.2F7145D68@outbox.allstream.net> A while back there was talk of a group purchase of 10-sector 5/25" diskettes? - this this happen - is it going to happen? I am trying to locate some 10-sector DS/DD diskettes for someone who has a NorthStar Horizon ... Any ideas? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Thu Jun 17 11:54:22 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:54:22 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Source for 10-sector disks? Group purchase? In-Reply-To: <20040617160951.2F7145D68@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <003301c4548b$bd770de0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Dave, This did happen, and I contacted the manufacturer about a week and a half ago to check on the order and they were way behind but working on it. I happened to order an extra supply for myself, and I still have some from my last order. Please contact me off-list if you need media immediately and I'll do what I can to help you out. To all order participants: sorry for the delay. They're a small business, and I've worked with them for years and they're really, really good, consistently. They just get a little bogged down sometimes. Thanks for your patience. In the meanwhile, if any of you who ordered needs media immediately for some purpose, please contact me and I'll be happy to advance you a small supply out of my current stock. Best, Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Dave Dunfield > Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 9:10 AM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: [sebhc] Source for 10-sector disks? Group purchase? > > > A while back there was talk of a group purchase of 10-sector > 5/25" diskettes? - this this happen - is it going to happen? > > I am trying to locate some 10-sector DS/DD diskettes for > someone who has a NorthStar Horizon ... Any ideas? > > Regards, > Dave > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: > www.dunfield.com > com Vintage computing equipment collector. > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 17 12:58:27 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Forth disk Message-ID: <200406171758.KAA11750@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I see that the Forth disk has also been added. Has anyone tried it with the emulator? It runs on a H89 so it is hard tied to the same serial port as would be used on a H8 with a H8-5 serial/cassette card. I should check it out to make sure it works under this environment but I expect it to. I can create a version to run with the H8-4 given a little time( see below about meta compiler ). I have some screens disk that I've built up over time but they need a little cleaning. I do also have some meta compiling disk. These allow one to completely create a new version of Forth ( takes a couple of minutes ). I did it the lazy way by creating an intermediate Forth that is then used to create the final Forth. It is a little more in steps but it allows one to check out the new features before committing thing to disk. The screens disk also has a simple editor that used the H89 or H19 type escape sequences. These wouldn't work to well without something like the H19 emulator of Carroll's or a real H89/H19. I can help someone make a simple line editor if they are interested in using this Forth with a H9 or other simple terminal. Give me a little time and I'll release these disk images with the utilities and meta compiler to the library. I need to do a little cleanup work on them first. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Thu Jun 17 15:51:24 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:51:24 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] scopes Message-ID: <40D2044C.4030005@sc.rr.com> I may have already asked this before, but I'm not sure. Does anyone know of someone who can repair Tektronics scopes. I have 4 - 453 scopes. I'll give someone 3 of them if they will repair 1 for me. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Jun 17 16:25:52 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:25:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [sebhc] scopes Message-ID: <20040617212552.A5E28B47D4@outbox.allstream.net> At 16:51 17/06/2004 -0400, you wrote: >I may have already asked this before, but I'm not sure. >Does anyone know of someone who can repair Tektronics scopes. >I have 4 - 453 scopes. >I'll give someone 3 of them if they will repair 1 for me. >Carroll Boy do I wish I lived near you! Is it the same symptom for all four scopes? If yes, what is the symptom. If no, what are the symptoms broken down by scope? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Thu Jun 17 18:25:21 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:25:21 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] scopes In-Reply-To: <20040617212552.A5E28B47D4@outbox.allstream.net> References: <20040617212552.A5E28B47D4@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <40D22861.5090405@sc.rr.com> Unfortunately, they all have different symptoms. Actually, I have 3 453's and 1 454. I remember that 1 had a channel that would stop working after it got hot. Another would stop sweeping when it got hot. I can't recall what the other 2 did. I put them on a shelf and bought a 465 off ebay. Carroll Dave Dunfield wrote: >At 16:51 17/06/2004 -0400, you wrote: > > >>I may have already asked this before, but I'm not sure. >>Does anyone know of someone who can repair Tektronics scopes. >>I have 4 - 453 scopes. >>I'll give someone 3 of them if they will repair 1 for me. >>Carroll >> >> > >Boy do I wish I lived near you! > >Is it the same symptom for all four scopes? >If yes, what is the symptom. >If no, what are the symptoms broken down by scope? > >Regards, >Dave > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 17 18:30:28 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] scopes Message-ID: <200406172330.QAA11935@clulw009.amd.com> Hi These may mostly be just refreashing heat sink compound on some of the power devices. Look out for purple ceramics. Some of these are made from toxic materials and require special handling. These usually have a warning sign on the chassis someplace but it may have become lost over time. Dwight >From: "Carroll Waddell" > >Unfortunately, they all have different symptoms. Actually, I have 3 >453's and 1 454. I remember that 1 had a channel that would stop working >after it got hot. Another would stop sweeping when it got hot. I can't >recall what the other 2 did. I put them on a shelf and bought a 465 off >ebay. >Carroll > >Dave Dunfield wrote: > >>At 16:51 17/06/2004 -0400, you wrote: >> >> >>>I may have already asked this before, but I'm not sure. >>>Does anyone know of someone who can repair Tektronics scopes. >>>I have 4 - 453 scopes. >>>I'll give someone 3 of them if they will repair 1 for me. >>>Carroll >>> >>> >> >>Boy do I wish I lived near you! >> >>Is it the same symptom for all four scopes? >>If yes, what is the symptom. >>If no, what are the symptoms broken down by scope? >> >>Regards, >>Dave >> >> -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Thu Jun 17 20:23:34 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:23:34 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Disk transfer program Message-ID: <40D24416.4090505@sc.rr.com> I just got Dwight's disk image program to work. I downloaded an HDOS image, made a boot diskette, and it worked. One thing threw me. When you boot the image diskette, my H8 says SPACE. That is a prompt to hit the space bar on your terminal. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 17 20:54:33 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Disk transfer program Message-ID: <200406180154.SAA12009@clulw009.amd.com> Hi all Before downloading the one on the ftp page, give me another day. The version that Carroll is using has been updated to remove some bits and pieces. I suspect that the one on the ftp will work for all but I'd rather you got the newer one. I'm also adding some information on how to slow the serial speed for the H8-5 boards. It seems that some of the optical isolators used here don't do well at 9600 baud. I'll put this info in the README.TXT file. Dwight >From: "Carroll Waddell" > >I just got Dwight's disk image program to work. I downloaded an HDOS >image, made a boot diskette, and it worked. One thing threw me. >When you boot the image diskette, my H8 says SPACE. That is a prompt to >hit the space bar on your terminal. >Carroll > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Thu Jun 17 23:12:50 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:12:50 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] scopes References: <40D2044C.4030005@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <40D26BC2.53EF@earthlink.net> Carroll Waddell wrote: > > I may have already asked this before, but I'm not sure. > Does anyone know of someone who can repair Tektronics scopes. > I have 4 - 453 scopes. > I'll give someone 3 of them if they will repair 1 for me. I saw your earlier post, but don't know of anyone who can help. I've had several Tektronix 'scopes, and they are very good instruments. The manuals for the older ones are also wonderful. However, you need a 'scope to fix a 'scope. And, finding parts is a challenge. When mine broke I was able to track it down to the component level -- but then couldn't get parts. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From labomb at rochester.rr.com Thu Jun 17 22:00:46 2004 From: labomb at rochester.rr.com (Scott LaBombard) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 23:00:46 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Disk transfer program References: <200406180154.SAA12009@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <008a01c454e0$7421dbc0$02a8a8c0@IBMD9HY10WBGXB> > I'm also adding some information on how to slow > the serial speed for the H8-5 boards. It seems that > some of the optical isolators used here don't do > well at 9600 baud. I can vouch for that ... one of my H8-5's had an issue at 9600 baud ...it turned out to be an opto isolator as Dwight suggests. I also had a bad 4N26 isolator on one of my H9's that caused the same issue at that baud rate (but, as was the case with the H8-5, worked fine at lower buad rates)... go figure. Pretty consistent issue it seems ... Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [sebhc] Disk transfer program > Hi all > Before downloading the one on the ftp page, give > me another day. The version that Carroll is using > has been updated to remove some bits and pieces. > I suspect that the one on the ftp will work for > all but I'd rather you got the newer one. > I'm also adding some information on how to slow > the serial speed for the H8-5 boards. It seems that > some of the optical isolators used here don't do > well at 9600 baud. I'll put this info in the README.TXT > file. > Dwight > > > >From: "Carroll Waddell" > > > >I just got Dwight's disk image program to work. I downloaded an HDOS > >image, made a boot diskette, and it worked. One thing threw me. > >When you boot the image diskette, my H8 says SPACE. That is a prompt to > >hit the space bar on your terminal. > >Carroll > > > >-- > >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Thu Jun 17 21:58:40 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:58:40 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] scopes In-Reply-To: <40D26BC2.53EF@earthlink.net> References: <40D2044C.4030005@sc.rr.com> <40D26BC2.53EF@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40D25A60.7090105@sc.rr.com> Hi Lee I have a working 465 that I bought through ebay. I just thought it would be nice to get a second one working. Also, did you get my email about the CPM boot diskettes? Carroll Lee Hart wrote: >Carroll Waddell wrote: > > >>I may have already asked this before, but I'm not sure. >>Does anyone know of someone who can repair Tektronics scopes. >>I have 4 - 453 scopes. >>I'll give someone 3 of them if they will repair 1 for me. >> >> > >I saw your earlier post, but don't know of anyone who can help. I've had >several Tektronix 'scopes, and they are very good instruments. The >manuals for the older ones are also wonderful. However, you need a >'scope to fix a 'scope. And, finding parts is a challenge. When mine >broke I was able to track it down to the component level -- but then >couldn't get parts. > > From melamy at earthlink.net Fri Jun 18 05:16:32 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 06:16:32 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [sebhc] H8 optoisolators - aka: disk transfer program Message-ID: <27566757.1087553792723.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> I would suspect that it is not an optoisolator problem, but rather the components around it. If someone can direct me to the correct schematic, I could probably recommend value changes for the other components that would allow it to work at 9600 baud reliably. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Scott LaBombard Sent: Jun 17, 2004 11:00 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] Disk transfer program > I'm also adding some information on how to slow > the serial speed for the H8-5 boards. It seems that > some of the optical isolators used here don't do > well at 9600 baud. I can vouch for that ... one of my H8-5's had an issue at 9600 baud ...it turned out to be an opto isolator as Dwight suggests. I also had a bad 4N26 isolator on one of my H9's that caused the same issue at that baud rate (but, as was the case with the H8-5, worked fine at lower buad rates)... go figure. Pretty consistent issue it seems ... Scott -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Fri Jun 18 06:54:43 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 07:54:43 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] diskettes Message-ID: <40D2D803.7080908@sc.rr.com> I'm not sure who ordered the hard sectored diskettes. I didn't say anything when you ordered them, but I was wondering if you ordered any extra, could I get some, and how much are they? Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Fri Jun 18 13:07:55 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:07:55 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] H8 optoisolators - aka: disk transfer program References: <27566757.1087553792723.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40D32F7B.A3F@earthlink.net> Steve Thatcher wrote: > I would suspect that it is not an optoisolator problem, but rather the components around it. If someone can direct me to the correct schematic, I could probably recommend value changes for the other components that would allow it to work at 9600 baud reliably. Most inexpensive optocouplers are indeed quite slow. This is caused by the phototransistor. It needs a large base-collector junction to catch lots of light; this gives it a lot of capacitance. It also needs high gain, to get the largest possible signal out. The capacitance is multiplied by the gain (the "Miller effect") to make turn-off time particularly slow. There are circuits that can partially correct this, at least up to 9600 baud. They usually drive the LED very hard (20ma), and use a very small collector resistor (like 100 ohms). You then need some kind of amplifiier on the output side to get it to be TTL compatible. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Fri Jun 18 12:02:49 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 optoisolators - aka: disk transfer program Message-ID: <18027496.1087578170167.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Hi Lee, thanks for filling in more technical details as to why I asked someone to point me at the right schematic. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Lee Hart Sent: Jun 18, 2004 11:07 AM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] H8 optoisolators - aka: disk transfer program Steve Thatcher wrote: > I would suspect that it is not an optoisolator problem, but rather the components around it. If someone can direct me to the correct schematic, I could probably recommend value changes for the other components that would allow it to work at 9600 baud reliably. Most inexpensive optocouplers are indeed quite slow. This is caused by the phototransistor. It needs a large base-collector junction to catch lots of light; this gives it a lot of capacitance. It also needs high gain, to get the largest possible signal out. The capacitance is multiplied by the gain (the "Miller effect") to make turn-off time particularly slow. There are circuits that can partially correct this, at least up to 9600 baud. They usually drive the LED very hard (20ma), and use a very small collector resistor (like 100 ohms). You then need some kind of amplifiier on the output side to get it to be TTL compatible. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 18 17:21:30 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:21:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 optoisolators - aka: disk transfer program Message-ID: <200406182221.PAA14070@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Lee Hart" > >Steve Thatcher wrote: >> I would suspect that it is not an optoisolator problem, but rather the components around it. If someone can direct me to the correct schematic, I could probably recommend value changes for the other components that would allow it to work at 9600 baud reliably. > >Most inexpensive optocouplers are indeed quite slow. This is caused by >the phototransistor. It needs a large base-collector junction to catch >lots of light; this gives it a lot of capacitance. It also needs high >gain, to get the largest possible signal out. The capacitance is >multiplied by the gain (the "Miller effect") to make turn-off time >particularly slow. ---snip--- Hi One of the biggest problem with them is that the spec sheets alway spec them under the best conditions. Turn off time with a low value load resistor and turn on time with a high value load resistor. Real life is someplace in the middle but where or what that'll be with any specific load resistor is anyones guess. The darlington ones do allow access to the base lead but there is no spec on the relative gains of the two transistors so you can't depend on using that lead for anything practical. Anyway, swapping the two on my board brought the recieve side up to a respectable level. The Transmit side is a little less sensitive to these issues. I'm not sure why Heathkit chose to use these on the RS232 path, rather than a simple transistor or two, as a level shifter. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Fri Jun 18 19:14:15 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:14:15 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [sebhc] H8 optoisolators - aka: disk transfer program Message-ID: <9792681.1087604056112.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net> specsmanship is certainly a problem. Different manfuacturers will spec the same equivalent device different ways. I checked Vishay for the 4N26 and they at least kept the same circuit for their specs. When it comes to an optoisolator, the turn on time is always quicker than the turn off time. If you have a base connection, you may be able to speed up the turn off time with a resistor to ground. Glad to hear that swapping parts got the serial to work okay. By the way, did Heath use 1488 and 1489 chips for the RS232 along with the optoisolators? best regards, Steve Hi One of the biggest problem with them is that the spec sheets alway spec them under the best conditions. Turn off time with a low value load resistor and turn on time with a high value load resistor. Real life is someplace in the middle but where or what that'll be with any specific load resistor is anyones guess. The darlington ones do allow access to the base lead but there is no spec on the relative gains of the two transistors so you can't depend on using that lead for anything practical. Anyway, swapping the two on my board brought the recieve side up to a respectable level. The Transmit side is a little less sensitive to these issues. I'm not sure why Heathkit chose to use these on the RS232 path, rather than a simple transistor or two, as a level shifter. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 18 19:19:26 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H8 optoisolators - aka: disk transfer program Message-ID: <200406190019.RAA14166@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Steve Thatcher" >specsmanship is certainly a problem. Different manfuacturers will spec the same ---snip--- > >By the way, did Heath use 1488 and 1489 chips for the RS232 along with the optoisolators? > >best regards, Steve > ---snip--- They only used the optos on the H8-5 without any 1488/89's. On the H8-4 they used a more traditional interface. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Fri Jun 18 19:28:42 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:28:42 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [sebhc] H8 optoisolators - aka: disk transfer program Message-ID: <12091661.1087604923207.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net> I suspected that. It was the cheap alternative... :) You want to talk cheap though, try doing a serial connection on the original Osborne computer. If I recollect correctly, they used a quad LM3900 transconductance amplifier for the interface. I developed debugging software (EM-PAC) to control Applied Microsystem EM series emulators and remember dealing with Osborne issues. best regards, Steve ---snip--- > >By the way, did Heath use 1488 and 1489 chips for the RS232 along with the optoisolators? > >best regards, Steve > ---snip--- They only used the optos on the H8-5 without any 1488/89's. On the H8-4 they used a more traditional interface. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 18 23:41:55 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:41:55 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Source for 10-sector disks? Group purchase? In-Reply-To: <20040617160951.2F7145D68@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <200406190441.i5J4fxfI089496@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jun 2004 04:41:50 -0000 I just caught this thread after being out of town for a couple of days. My memory is starting to fade, but didn't NortStar use 16 sector hard sector disks? Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -----Original Message----- > I am trying to locate some 10-sector DS/DD diskettes for someone > who has a NorthStar Horizon ... Any ideas? > > Regards, > Dave > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From labomb at rochester.rr.com Sat Jun 19 08:32:26 2004 From: labomb at rochester.rr.com (Scott LaBombard) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 09:32:26 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Source for 10-sector disks? Group purchase? References: <200406190441.i5J4fxfI089496@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <001001c45601$dcb6a590$02a8a8c0@IBMD9HY10WBGXB> > I just caught this thread after being out of town for a couple of days. My > memory is starting to fade, but didn't NortStar use 16 sector hard sector > disks? > Hi Peter ... the Northstar system used 10-sector hard sectored disks. There were some 16-sector options at the time ...I believe Miniscribe was one, Vector had an implementation, and perhaps others ... Scott -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jun 19 10:20:08 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:20:08 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] 444-66 Message-ID: <200406191519.i5JFJwQW002125@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp806.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jun 2004 15:19:58 -0000 While searching for a power cord, I "found" a package of some 444-66 ICs that I had made for my 6MHz H89 modification. These are special versions encoded in a high-speed pal to handle the higher system clock speed. Isn't that something - we now look at CPU speeds over 3GHz, but back then the 6MHz was a flying demon! Anyway, I did not know if anyone might need these items, so I am posting to the list to let you know that 5 pieces of this special item exist! Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ From leeahart at earthlink.net Sat Jun 19 12:55:18 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 10:55:18 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Source for 10-sector disks? Group purchase? References: <200406190441.i5J4fxfI089496@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <40D47E06.13C8@earthlink.net> >> I am trying to locate some 10-sector DS/DD diskettes for someone >> who has a NorthStar Horizon ... Any ideas? Peter wrote: > but didn't NortStar use 16 sector hard sector disks? I believe their 8" disks were 16-hard-sector. But the Northstar 5.25" disks were certainly 10-sector, exactly like the H8 and H89 hard-sector. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Sat Jun 19 12:59:26 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 10:59:26 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] 444-66 References: <200406191519.i5JFJwQW002125@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <40D47EFE.25FA@earthlink.net> Peter wrote: > > While searching for a power cord, I "found" a package of some 444-66 ICs > that I had made for my 6MHz H89 modification. These are special versions > encoded in a high-speed pal to handle the higher system clock speed. Isn't > that something - we now look at CPU speeds over 3GHz, but back then the 6MHz > was a flying demon! > > Anyway, I did not know if anyone might need these items, so I am posting to > the list to let you know that 5 pieces of this special item exist! Cool! I'm running one of your 4 MHz mods in my main H89 right now. Out of curiousity, what else would be required to change it to 6 MHz? -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Sat Jun 19 11:08:08 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 12:08:08 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [sebhc] Source for 10-sector disks? Group purchase? Message-ID: <3147328.1087661288295.JavaMail.root@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> hmmm, I never knew Northstar released a system with 8" disks. Their controller card in the Horizon was only designed for 5 1/4" disks and used SSI logic to read, write, and control the drives. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Lee Hart I believe their 8" disks were 16-hard-sector. But the Northstar 5.25" disks were certainly 10-sector, exactly like the H8 and H89 hard-sector. -- -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Sat Jun 19 11:08:08 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 12:08:08 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [sebhc] Source for 10-sector disks? Group purchase? Message-ID: <15739851.1087661288694.JavaMail.root@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> hmmm, I never knew Northstar released a system with 8" disks. Their controller card in the Horizon was only designed for 5 1/4" disks and used SSI logic to read, write, and control the drives. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Lee Hart I believe their 8" disks were 16-hard-sector. But the Northstar 5.25" disks were certainly 10-sector, exactly like the H8 and H89 hard-sector. -- -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Jun 19 11:09:25 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 11:09:25 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] 444-66 In-Reply-To: <200406191519.i5JFJwQW002125@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <000001c45617$d00372e0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Peter, Please put one on hold for me (I assume that you have the source and can burn more?) while I check out my "hot H89" to see what's in it. Thanks, Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 10:20 AM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: [sebhc] 444-66 > > > While searching for a power cord, I "found" a package of some > 444-66 ICs that I had made for my 6MHz H89 modification. > These are special versions encoded in a high-speed pal to > handle the higher system clock speed. Isn't that something - > we now look at CPU speeds over 3GHz, but back then the 6MHz > was a flying demon! > > Anyway, I did not know if anyone might need these items, so I > am posting to the list to let you know that 5 pieces of this > special item exist! > > Peter > ----------------------------------------------------------- > peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com Sat Jun 19 12:58:05 2004 From: RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com (West, Ronald S.) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 13:58:05 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H8 optoisolators - aka: disk transfer program Message-ID: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEA9CE2@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> I think the Original H8-5 board IO was designed to be compatible with TTY standards as well as RS232 at the time. They can both accomodate 232 voltages as well as 20ma LV and 60ma HV current loops. Think it was more their usual thourough design philosophy at work. At the time not much was running at nearly 10khz. Ron -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org To: sebhc at sebhc.org; sebhc at sebhc.org Sent: 6/18/2004 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [sebhc] H8 optoisolators - aka: disk transfer program I suspected that. It was the cheap alternative... :) You want to talk cheap though, try doing a serial connection on the original Osborne computer. If I recollect correctly, they used a quad LM3900 transconductance amplifier for the interface. I developed debugging software (EM-PAC) to control Applied Microsystem EM series emulators and remember dealing with Osborne issues. best regards, Steve ---snip--- > >By the way, did Heath use 1488 and 1489 chips for the RS232 along with the optoisolators? > >best regards, Steve > ---snip--- They only used the optos on the H8-5 without any 1488/89's. On the H8-4 they used a more traditional interface. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jun 19 18:11:26 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 16:11:26 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] 444-66 In-Reply-To: <40D47EFE.25FA@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200406192311.i5JNBGII007959@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp813.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jun 2004 23:11:15 -0000 The trick with speeds over 4MHz was to implement speed switching in the OS. When the computer needs to access certain hardware, I would have it switch to 2MHz operation till the I/O was completed. This was not necessary for a 4MHz mod. Although I have not done it successfully myself, I have had reports of some users running at 8MHz. I don't remember any more who did this - it was quite a while ago. As for the 444-66 source, I do not have it. The units I have were simply copies from the original but burned to higher speed PALs. I do not have equipment to do this - I contracted another person for these parts. They only cost a few dollars apiece. I totally forgot about them till just now. I also found my stash of 74HCT00 ICs that were also a necessary part of the speed upgrade process. I just got back from moving my daughter into an apartment for the university. As soon as I get organized a bit, I will try to post the information for increasing the CPU speed - perhaps it might be easiest to put it on my own website and I will give post the URL on this list. Any comments on doing it that way? Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -----Original Message----- > > While searching for a power cord, I "found" a package of > some 444-66 ICs > > that I had made for my 6MHz H89 modification. These are > > Cool! > > I'm running one of your 4 MHz mods in my main H89 right now. Out of > curiousity, what else would be required to change it to 6 MHz? > -- > -- > Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 > leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Jun 19 18:41:46 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:41:46 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] 444-66 In-Reply-To: <200406192311.i5JNBGII007959@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <000001c45656$fc838370$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Peter, Whatever is easiest for you works for me - the goal really is to keep the information in circulation. I've set up the SEBHC archives for limited distribution to minimize the chance of "publishing" something that really isn't public domain. Obviously how you handle your own material is up to you - and giving it maximum exposure is great. Maybe you can get some of your students to take a look at the 8-bit world. Best, Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 6:11 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: RE: [sebhc] 444-66 > > > The trick with speeds over 4MHz was to implement speed > switching in the OS. When the computer needs to access > certain hardware, I would have it switch to 2MHz operation > till the I/O was completed. This was not necessary for a 4MHz > mod. Although I have not done it successfully myself, I have > had reports of some users running at 8MHz. I don't remember > any more who did this - it was quite a while ago. > > As for the 444-66 source, I do not have it. The units I have > were simply copies from the original but burned to higher > speed PALs. I do not have equipment to do this - I contracted > another person for these parts. They only cost a few dollars > apiece. I totally forgot about them till just now. I also > found my stash of 74HCT00 ICs that were also a necessary part > of the speed upgrade process. > > I just got back from moving my daughter into an apartment for > the university. As soon as I get organized a bit, I will try > to post the information for increasing the CPU speed - > perhaps it might be easiest to put it on my own website and I > will give post the URL on this list. Any comments on doing it > that way? > > Peter > ----------------------------------------------------------- > peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > While searching for a power cord, I "found" a package of > > some 444-66 ICs > > > that I had made for my 6MHz H89 modification. These are > > > > Cool! > > > > I'm running one of your 4 MHz mods in my main H89 right now. Out of > > curiousity, what else would be required to change it to 6 MHz? > > -- > > -- > > Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 > > leeahart_at_earthlink.net > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Jun 19 19:21:02 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 20:21:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [sebhc] Source for 10-sector disks? Group purchase? Message-ID: <20040620002102.4B4765F69@outbox.allstream.net> At 21:41 18/06/2004 -0700, you wrote: >I just caught this thread after being out of town for a couple of days. My >memory is starting to fade, but didn't NortStar use 16 sector hard sector >disks? No, They are 10 sector - I have the NS single-density controller in my Altair, which uses 10 sector - I have the docs for the DD controler and it also uses 10-sector. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Sun Jun 20 00:35:46 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:35:46 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] 444-66 References: <200406192311.i5JNBGII007959@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <40D52232.4AED@earthlink.net> Peter wrote: > The trick with speeds over 4MHz was to implement speed switching > in the OS. When the computer needs to access certain hardware, > I would have it switch to 2MHz operation till the I/O was completed. > This was not necessary for a 4MHz mod. As I recall, at 4 MHz the hard-sector code was the only thing that required some patches. On our H-1000, we had the hardware switch to 2 MHz during any I/O cycle or on accesses to the ROMs or static RAM (i.e. the H17 ROM or "floppy" RAM). This meant that no software patches at all were needed to run at 4 MHz. > Although I have not done it successfully myself, I have had > reports of some users running at 8MHz. I don't remember any > more who did this - it was quite a while ago. Our H-1000 could run its Z80 at 8 MHz, but its hardware was slightly different than the original H89 CPU board. A few patches were needed in CP/M and HDOS to run it at 8 MHz, besides the above mentioned trick of dropping to 2 MHz for I/O and ROMs. But there were quite minor. Heath's software was remarkably tolerant of CPU speed. But, I never did try to get the Heath CPU board to work at anything over 4 MHz. > As for the 444-66 source, I do not have it. I do, and a PROM programmer that can program them as well. However, the parts I have are the stock speed. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 21 14:38:10 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 12:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Forth disk Message-ID: <200406211938.MAA16838@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I worked a bunch on this over the weekend but still didn't get a chance to boot it on a H8. I'm still fiddling on the H89. >From what I know now, you'd need a machine with 48K RAM and a H8-5 Ser/Cas board to use the one in the ftp. I've been making a better release version to handle systems as small as 24K and both the H8-5 and H8-4 boards. I had some initial problems finding a compatible version to work with the current meta compiler I'd put together. After a number of false starts, what I have right now, one can boot in that smaller memory model. I'll include the meta compiler so one can regenerate a Forth for the memory size one actually has. This includes the FULL source. It is mostly a FIG Forth so I don't have many comments in the source, I'm assuming that one would have access to the FIG installation manual and the 8080 FIG listing. The Forth, itself can run in systems as small as 12k-16K but one would need the 24K system to create an image that would work in such a system. Still, it could be done. It takes about 8K for the core of Forth and about 2.5K for buffers and such. What ever else one would have to fit into the remaining RAM. Making it resolve the memory size at boot time would take a little more work since Forth uses the high memory end for buffers and stacks. It is easier to just create an image from the source that will fit the machine one is on. The fun thing is that one can completely create their own custom Forth in just a few minutes, even on an old H8 or H89. Forth is one of the few high level languages that it is possible for one to completely understand and implement. Dwight >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > >Hi > I see that the Forth disk has also been added. >Has anyone tried it with the emulator? It runs >on a H89 so it is hard tied to the same serial >port as would be used on a H8 with a H8-5 >serial/cassette card. I should check it out to make >sure it works under this environment but I expect >it to. I can create a version to run with the H8-4 >given a little time( see below about meta >compiler ). > I have some screens disk that I've built up >over time but they need a little cleaning. >I do also have some meta compiling disk. These >allow one to completely create a new version >of Forth ( takes a couple of minutes ). I did >it the lazy way by creating an intermediate >Forth that is then used to create the final >Forth. It is a little more in steps but it >allows one to check out the new features before >committing thing to disk. > The screens disk also has a simple editor >that used the H89 or H19 type escape sequences. >These wouldn't work to well without something >like the H19 emulator of Carroll's or a real >H89/H19. I can help someone make a simple line >editor if they are interested in using this >Forth with a H9 or other simple terminal. > Give me a little time and I'll release these >disk images with the utilities and meta compiler >to the library. I need to do a little cleanup >work on them first. >Dwight > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 22 16:49:25 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 14:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Forth disk Message-ID: <200406222149.OAA17440@clulw009.amd.com> Hi All I did some more work on the stuff last night. I realize now that the version on the ftp will only work on the H89. I don't know why but I thought that the console serial would be the same for both the H89 and the H8 w/ H8-5. As it turns out, they are not the same. The H89 uses a 8250 to talk to the monitor, similar to what is on the H8-4 but at a different address. The H8-5 is a 8251. To make things a little more tricky, I used the receive interrupt in the Forth. It'll take me a day or two more to get this stuff incorporated into the meta source so I can generate the needed image. I've already dealt with both types of serial chips in my image loader so it is just a matter of patching things in. I expect that, initially, I'll have three versions. One for the H89, one for the H8 w/ H8-5 and one for the H8 w/ H8-4. I may make a universal one later that will detect what port is being used with the [SPACE] request used by HDOS. I also send a sequence on boot to the monitor to switch it to the capital letter mode. This is only useful for the H89 or H19 but not for a truely dumb terminal like the H9. I suspect I'll modify this to default to nothing and leave a switch in the meta compiler to select the H19/H89 escape setup. I do have it running on the H8 but without a head. Patching the right serial address and port access method will bring it fully to life. I just need the free time in the evenings to get it done. Dwight >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > >Hi > I worked a bunch on this over the weekend but >still didn't get a chance to boot it on a H8. >I'm still fiddling on the H89. >>From what I know now, you'd need a machine with >48K RAM and a H8-5 Ser/Cas board to use the one >in the ftp. ---snip--- -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Jun 22 17:40:52 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:40:52 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Forth disk In-Reply-To: <200406222149.OAA17440@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <000001c458a9$fa463940$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Dwight, Guess I'll have to dig out my Leo Brodie books and figure out what you're up to! Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Dwight K. Elvey > Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 4:49 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] Forth disk > > > Hi All > I did some more work on the stuff last night. > I realize now that the version on the ftp will > only work on the H89. I don't know why but I thought > that the console serial would be the same for both > the H89 and the H8 w/ H8-5. As it turns out, they > are not the same. The H89 uses a 8250 to talk to > the monitor, similar to what is on the H8-4 but > at a different address. The H8-5 is a 8251. To make > things a little more tricky, I used the receive > interrupt in the Forth. It'll take me a day or > two more to get this stuff incorporated into the > meta source so I can generate the needed image. > I've already dealt with both types of serial chips > in my image loader so it is just a matter of patching > things in. I expect that, initially, I'll have three > versions. One for the H89, one for the H8 w/ H8-5 > and one for the H8 w/ H8-4. I may make a universal > one later that will detect what port is being used > with the [SPACE] request used by HDOS. > I also send a sequence on boot to the monitor to > switch it to the capital letter mode. This is only useful > for the H89 or H19 but not for a truely dumb terminal > like the H9. I suspect I'll modify this to default > to nothing and leave a switch in the meta compiler > to select the H19/H89 escape setup. > I do have it running on the H8 but without a head. > Patching the right serial address and port access > method will bring it fully to life. I just need the > free time in the evenings to get it done. > Dwight > > > >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > > > >Hi > > I worked a bunch on this over the weekend but > >still didn't get a chance to boot it on a H8. > >I'm still fiddling on the H89. > >>From what I know now, you'd need a machine with > >48K RAM and a H8-5 Ser/Cas board to use the one > >in the ftp. > ---snip--- > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 22 17:54:01 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:54:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Forth disk Message-ID: <200406222254.PAA17479@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Jack Things like meta compiling are considered "Black Belt" but I copied this meta compiler from one of the FIG listings when I was first starting. As with most Forth compiling, things are single pass. This means that for something like Forth, there are quite a few post patches. I've since written my own meta/target compilers. I usually make them a lot cleaner. Still, this one does work. Leo Brodie's book is a fun book to work from but it is also fun to just dig in and play with stuff before spending too much time with a book. Also, you'll then know, better, what things to pay attention to. I hope to get the three basic setups running before this weekend because I'll be off to Yosemite for the weekend. As long as something else doesn't get in the way, I should be able to patch the console functions. I can see it loading into memory and running a loop, looking to send the signon message. Dwight From: "Jack Rubin" > >Dwight, > >Guess I'll have to dig out my Leo Brodie books and figure out what >you're up to! > >Jack > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of >> Dwight K. Elvey >> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 4:49 PM >> To: sebhc at sebhc.org >> Subject: Re: [sebhc] Forth disk >> >> >> Hi All >> I did some more work on the stuff last night. >> I realize now that the version on the ftp will >> only work on the H89. I don't know why but I thought >> that the console serial would be the same for both >> the H89 and the H8 w/ H8-5. As it turns out, they >> are not the same. The H89 uses a 8250 to talk to >> the monitor, similar to what is on the H8-4 but >> at a different address. The H8-5 is a 8251. To make >> things a little more tricky, I used the receive >> interrupt in the Forth. It'll take me a day or >> two more to get this stuff incorporated into the >> meta source so I can generate the needed image. >> I've already dealt with both types of serial chips >> in my image loader so it is just a matter of patching >> things in. I expect that, initially, I'll have three >> versions. One for the H89, one for the H8 w/ H8-5 >> and one for the H8 w/ H8-4. I may make a universal >> one later that will detect what port is being used >> with the [SPACE] request used by HDOS. >> I also send a sequence on boot to the monitor to >> switch it to the capital letter mode. This is only useful >> for the H89 or H19 but not for a truely dumb terminal >> like the H9. I suspect I'll modify this to default >> to nothing and leave a switch in the meta compiler >> to select the H19/H89 escape setup. >> I do have it running on the H8 but without a head. >> Patching the right serial address and port access >> method will bring it fully to life. I just need the >> free time in the evenings to get it done. >> Dwight >> >> >> >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >> > >> >Hi >> > I worked a bunch on this over the weekend but >> >still didn't get a chance to boot it on a H8. >> >I'm still fiddling on the H89. >> >>From what I know now, you'd need a machine with >> >48K RAM and a H8-5 Ser/Cas board to use the one >> >in the ftp. >> ---snip--- >> >> >> -- >> Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Jun 22 19:07:12 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 19:07:12 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Forth disk In-Reply-To: <200406222254.PAA17479@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <000a01c458b6$09628440$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Dwight, Great - I've got two H89's up now, running HDOS 3.02, so I've got to get that sorted out a little bit and get some disk images in the archives. I still don't have an org-0 H8 working, but I wanted to see the "new" DOS so I just skipped ahead a little. I think these should work fine with your Forth kit as while as the file uploader. Someday soon I'm going to put you in the way-back machine and start digging into the SIM-8 and MDS systems - I'm picking up an ASR-33 on the way to VCF-East so I'll be in the right mode by the end of July. Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Dwight K. Elvey > Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 5:54 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: RE: [sebhc] Forth disk > > > Hi Jack > Things like meta compiling are considered "Black Belt" > but I copied this meta compiler from one of the FIG listings > when I was first starting. As with most Forth compiling, > things are single pass. This means that for something like > Forth, there are quite a few post patches. I've since written > my own meta/target compilers. I usually make them a lot > cleaner. Still, this one does work. Leo Brodie's book is a > fun book to work from but it is also fun to just dig in and > play with stuff before spending too much time with a book. > Also, you'll then know, better, what things to pay attention > to. I hope to get the three basic setups running before this > weekend because I'll be off to Yosemite for the weekend. As > long as something else doesn't get in the way, I should be > able to patch the console functions. I can see it loading > into memory and running a loop, looking to send the signon > message. Dwight > > > From: "Jack Rubin" > > > >Dwight, > > > >Guess I'll have to dig out my Leo Brodie books and figure out what > >you're up to! > > > >Jack > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > >> Dwight K. Elvey > >> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 4:49 PM > >> To: sebhc at sebhc.org > >> Subject: Re: [sebhc] Forth disk > >> > >> > >> Hi All > >> I did some more work on the stuff last night. > >> I realize now that the version on the ftp will > >> only work on the H89. I don't know why but I thought > >> that the console serial would be the same for both > >> the H89 and the H8 w/ H8-5. As it turns out, they > >> are not the same. The H89 uses a 8250 to talk to > >> the monitor, similar to what is on the H8-4 but > >> at a different address. The H8-5 is a 8251. To make > >> things a little more tricky, I used the receive > >> interrupt in the Forth. It'll take me a day or > >> two more to get this stuff incorporated into the > >> meta source so I can generate the needed image. > >> I've already dealt with both types of serial chips > >> in my image loader so it is just a matter of patching > >> things in. I expect that, initially, I'll have three versions. One > >> for the H89, one for the H8 w/ H8-5 and one for the H8 w/ > H8-4. I may > >> make a universal one later that will detect what port is being used > >> with the [SPACE] request used by HDOS. > >> I also send a sequence on boot to the monitor to > >> switch it to the capital letter mode. This is only useful > >> for the H89 or H19 but not for a truely dumb terminal > >> like the H9. I suspect I'll modify this to default > >> to nothing and leave a switch in the meta compiler > >> to select the H19/H89 escape setup. > >> I do have it running on the H8 but without a head. > >> Patching the right serial address and port access > >> method will bring it fully to life. I just need the > >> free time in the evenings to get it done. > >> Dwight > >> > >> > >> >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > >> > > >> >Hi > >> > I worked a bunch on this over the weekend but > >> >still didn't get a chance to boot it on a H8. > >> >I'm still fiddling on the H89. > >> >>From what I know now, you'd need a machine with > >> >48K RAM and a H8-5 Ser/Cas board to use the one > >> >in the ftp. > >> ---snip--- > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > sebhc-request at sebhc.org. > >> > > > >-- > >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 23 17:13:42 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Forth disk Message-ID: <200406232213.PAA18343@clulw009.amd.com> Hi All I worked more on this last night. I have a disk booting to Forth from a H8 w/ H8-5. I thought getting it to work with the H8 w/ H8-4 would be quick because the H89 uses the same serial chip. I just changed the addresses but that didn't work. I didn't think about it till this morning, the H89 has to initialize the 8250 on boot to use the monitor. I didn't do initialization in my original Forth so all I have to do is initialize the 8250 serial chip. The H8 doesn't do any initialization on boot. I hope I get something to release by tomorrow because I expect to be gone from tomorrow afternoon until Monday. I think that getting the README to match the code will be the toughest part. The code is just about ready. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Wed Jun 23 17:35:52 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 18:35:52 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] EMAIL TROUBLE Message-ID: <40DA05C8.20303@sc.rr.com> I have been having trouble getting my email. Has anything been sent in the last 4 or 5 days from sebhc. I haven't gotten anything. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 23 17:52:08 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:52:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] EMAIL TROUBLE Message-ID: <200406232252.PAA18370@clulw009.amd.com> Hi There have been about 25 messages since the 18th. The last couple of days have been quite except for my post about Forth and a couple replies. Dwight >From: "Carroll Waddell" > >I have been having trouble getting my email. Has anything been sent in >the last 4 or 5 days from sebhc. I haven't gotten anything. >Carroll > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From rgroh at swbell.net Wed Jun 23 23:35:52 2004 From: rgroh at swbell.net (Bob And Bettina Groh) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:35:52 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] EMAIL TROUBLE References: <40DA05C8.20303@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <40DA5A28.9050802@swbell.net> Carroll, There has been a steady stream of messages from SEBHC over the last couple of days. Only 2 today - yours and one other. Bob Carroll Waddell wrote: > I have been having trouble getting my email. Has anything been sent in > the last 4 or 5 days from sebhc. I haven't gotten anything. > Carroll > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 24 11:35:16 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:35:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Forth disk Message-ID: <200406241635.JAA18919@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I worked on this some more but I've done something wrong someplace. I don't seem to be able to get the images from memory onto the disk without corruption. I'll be gone over the weekend so I won't be able to fiddle with it until next week. It is most likely something simple that I've overlooked. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Thu Jun 24 15:53:58 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:53:58 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] CPM Message-ID: <40DB3F66.7010808@sc.rr.com> I just purchased CPM through ebay, however, they were soft sector diskettes, and I only have a hard sector controller. Can anyone copy them from soft to hard format diskettes? Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 24 16:22:16 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] CPM Message-ID: <200406242122.OAA19093@clulw009.amd.com> Hi You'll still need the hard sectored drivers. Dwight >From: "Carroll Waddell" > >I just purchased CPM through ebay, however, they were soft sector >diskettes, and I only have a hard sector controller. Can anyone copy >them from soft to hard format diskettes? >Carroll > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Fri Jun 25 11:29:54 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:29:54 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] basic compiler Message-ID: <40DC5302.5000908@sc.rr.com> Does anyone know if there was ever a basic compiler for HDOS Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Sat Jun 26 14:32:46 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 15:32:46 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H37 docs Message-ID: <40DDCF5E.3060206@sc.rr.com> Does anyone have the docs or schematics for the H37 diskette controller used in the H8? Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Jun 26 15:07:44 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 13:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H37 docs In-Reply-To: <40DDCF5E.3060206@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040626200744.23487.qmail@web53701.mail.yahoo.com> Carroll, Take a peek at http://www.sebhc.org/archive/documents/hardware/H8/WH-8-37-SSDisk-595-2859.pdf Note that this is an incomplete (pre-release proof?) version - maybe someone has a complete manual to supplement it. Jack --- Carroll Waddell wrote: > Does anyone have the docs or schematics for the H37 > diskette controller > used in the H8? > Carroll > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > sebhc-request at sebhc.org. > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jun 26 15:38:58 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 13:38:58 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] CPM In-Reply-To: <40DB3F66.7010808@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <200406262038.i5QKcTx3098821@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp810.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Jun 2004 20:38:28 -0000 Does anyone know the status of the Z-System that was developed by Echelon (Dennis Wright for ZRDOS, etc)? I wrote the BIOS mods and modified the ZCPR processor to run on the H89 (worked on H8 also I believe). I am willing to make the Z-System (a bootable alternative to CP/M) available to the group IF we have permission from the ZRDOS and ZCPR copyright holders. Hence my question as to Echelon folks' whereabouts. I did send an e-mail to echolon.com to see if they are the same company, but have not yet heard a response (just sent the e-mail). Another question would be, is anyone interested in what I am doing, or am I wasting my time? Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -----Original Message----- > I just purchased CPM through ebay, however, they were soft sector > diskettes, and I only have a hard sector controller. Can anyone copy > them from soft to hard format diskettes? > Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Jun 26 17:16:50 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 17:16:50 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] CPM In-Reply-To: <200406262038.i5QKcTx3098821@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <000001c45bcb$477a42a0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Peter, I used to run ZCPR on my Godbout S100 system and still have the system disks I built back then, though I haven't tried to boot them recently (as in the last 20 years). However, by the time that I had ZCPR running, I was already starting to run Multiuser Concurrent DOS with a 286 processor and never really got too involved with the Z-System. While I'd certainly like to see it on the H8* boxes, it's your call as to whether you want to do the work - you can contact Jay Sage directly at http://www.gaby.de/edownf.htm for further info on copyrights - my impression is that he's released the entire system to the public domain. Please let me know what you find out. Maybe by the time you get an answer we'll have settled on a virtual disk format! Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 3:39 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: RE: [sebhc] CPM > > > Does anyone know the status of the Z-System that was > developed by Echelon (Dennis Wright for ZRDOS, etc)? I wrote > the BIOS mods and modified the ZCPR processor to run on the > H89 (worked on H8 also I believe). I am willing to make the > Z-System (a bootable alternative to CP/M) available to the > group IF we have permission from the ZRDOS and ZCPR copyright > holders. Hence my question as to Echelon folks' whereabouts. > I did send an e-mail to echolon.com to see if they are the > same company, but have not yet heard a response (just sent > the e-mail). > > Another question would be, is anyone interested in what I am > doing, or am I wasting my time? > > Peter > ----------------------------------------------------------- > peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > I just purchased CPM through ebay, however, they were soft sector > > diskettes, and I only have a hard sector controller. Can > anyone copy > > them from soft to hard format diskettes? > > Carroll > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Jun 28 16:17:57 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:17:57 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H17 diskettes Message-ID: <40E08B05.2050604@sc.rr.com> Has anyone found a way (or program) that will read H17 Soft Sector diskettes on a PC? I have Media Master, but it would not read them. Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 28 16:52:06 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:52:06 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] H17 diskettes In-Reply-To: <40E08B05.2050604@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <200406282151.i5SLpn3M048383@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Jun 2004 21:51:49 -0000 I assume that you mean H17 hard sector disks. It was a long time ago, but I seem to remember some software (drivers) for CP/M to have the H37 read an H17 disk. It would seem possible to design some software to ignore the extra pulses generated by the sector holes in a hard sector disk. If not software, then some simple hardware should be able to do it. I don't know if anyone has done it. If not, it might be a challenge for me to try - IF I find time to do it! Regarding Media Master, I have not been able to make it work on my computers - it last worked on an original 386 machine. Are you running it on a Pentium machine? If so, what OS are you using? Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -----Original Message----- > Has anyone found a way (or program) that will read H17 Soft Sector > diskettes on a PC? > I have Media Master, but it would not read them. > Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Jun 28 17:32:29 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:32:29 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H17 diskettes In-Reply-To: <200406282151.i5SLpn3M048383@gatekeeper.evocative.com> References: <200406282151.i5SLpn3M048383@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <40E09C7D.8030801@sc.rr.com> I was looking for a way to read Heath Soft Sector diskettes on a PC. I still have an IBM PC portable. running DOS. That's what I was using Media Master on. I also use this PC to run Accelerate 8 16 which is a CPM emulation for DOS. CEW Peter wrote: >I assume that you mean H17 hard sector disks. It was a long time ago, but I >seem to remember some software (drivers) for CP/M to have the H37 read an >H17 disk. It would seem possible to design some software to ignore the extra >pulses generated by the sector holes in a hard sector disk. If not software, >then some simple hardware should be able to do it. I don't know if anyone >has done it. If not, it might be a challenge for me to try - IF I find time >to do it! > >Regarding Media Master, I have not been able to make it work on my computers >- it last worked on an original 386 machine. Are you running it on a Pentium >machine? If so, what OS are you using? > >Peter >----------------------------------------------------------- >peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>Has anyone found a way (or program) that will read H17 Soft Sector >>diskettes on a PC? >>I have Media Master, but it would not read them. >>Carroll >> >> > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 28 17:36:40 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:36:40 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute Message-ID: <200406282236.i5SMaXrA049167@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp803.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Jun 2004 22:36:22 -0000 In the days when I was active with my H89, I would often use a 3.5 inch drive with my H37 controller. It was much more convenient than the 5.25 inch disks. A question was asked of me whether the 3.5 inch drive could be used with the H17 controller. In my haste, I said that it probably would. Then someone (I think it may have been Lee Hart) pointed out that there were no hard-sector 3.5 inch floppies! This last statement is true, however, it should be possible to construct a pulse generator (a small piece of hardware) that would fool the H17 controller into thinking that the floppy was hard sectored. This could be done with both 5.12 and 3.5 inch disks - you would use soft sector diskettes with the H17. Two questions: 1. Has anyone already done this? 2. Perhaps more important - Is anyone interested? Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 28 17:33:52 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] H17 diskettes Message-ID: <200406282233.PAA22784@clulw009.amd.com> Hi The data encoding is not compatable between the hard and soft sectored. To read the soft sectored on a PC is possible with hardware that can handle that density ( most PC's are not capable of doing single density ). There are boards specifically designed to do this. If some wanted to give me a soft sectored setup, I could write an addition to my transfer program to handle soft sectored systems, as well as the hard sectored. Dwight >From: Peter > >I assume that you mean H17 hard sector disks. It was a long time ago, but I >seem to remember some software (drivers) for CP/M to have the H37 read an >H17 disk. It would seem possible to design some software to ignore the extra >pulses generated by the sector holes in a hard sector disk. If not software, >then some simple hardware should be able to do it. I don't know if anyone >has done it. If not, it might be a challenge for me to try - IF I find time >to do it! > >Regarding Media Master, I have not been able to make it work on my computers >- it last worked on an original 386 machine. Are you running it on a Pentium >machine? If so, what OS are you using? > >Peter >----------------------------------------------------------- >peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > > >> -----Original Message----- >> Has anyone found a way (or program) that will read H17 Soft Sector >> diskettes on a PC? >> I have Media Master, but it would not read them. >> Carroll > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 28 17:57:55 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:57:55 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] H17 diskettes In-Reply-To: <200406282233.PAA22784@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200406282257.i5SMveFl049470@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Jun 2004 22:57:37 -0000 Good point. I forgot about the floppy controller. In order to read a particular floppy format, the controller would need to have capability of handling the density that the floppy was recorded at. If the controller in your computer (usually on the motherboard these days) does not support the H37 format, the only solution is to install another floppy controller in the computer. Of course, there would also have to be software that reads the format as well. Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -----Original Message----- > The data encoding is not compatable between the hard > and soft sectored. To read the soft sectored on a PC is > possible with hardware that can handle that density ( most > PC's are not capable of doing single density ). > There are boards specifically designed to do this. > If some wanted to give me a soft sectored setup, I could > write an addition to my transfer program to handle soft > sectored systems, as well as the hard sectored. > Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 28 18:13:21 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Forth disk Message-ID: <200406282313.QAA22806@clulw009.amd.com> Hi All I got the Forth working late Thurs night but didn't have time to work on the readme. I got it all working last night and put it onto a floppy. I regret to say that the floppy has a sector error so I'll have to make another copy tonight :( What you'll get is a zip file with 5 disk images. Two will be boot images, one for the H8 w/ H8-5 and one for a H89 or H8 w/ H8-4. They both require that interrupt 3 is connected to the receive ( normal for H8's and H89's ). They also require a 24K minimum size. If anyone needs a smaller one, let me know and I can create one but there won't be enough memory to run the meta compiler and have the new image in memory at the same time. For the H8 systems with the Z80 processor, one needs 32K because they have zero based memory. There are two disk images that are source to recreate the Forth. I've set this up in a two stage event such that you can test the intermediate Forth to work. There is a way to do it in a single step as well. The boot images assume a minimum size of 24K. One would also use these sources to reconfigure their Forth to use the full memory available by changing one of the initial constants. One can also do things like make a stand alone application or simply add a new command word to their personal version. It takes about 5 minutes to do each step of creating a new Forth from the source. The last image contains a simple screen editor that uses the H19/H89 cursor keys. There is also a vary simple editor that just does line editing. For anything else, one can write their own editor. There is other programs on this disk but many of them only work with hardware that I put together, like a parallel port to talk to a parallel printer or a real time clock. The three source disk are all in the traditional screen FIG Forth format. A screen is composed of 1K bytes. I should have it into the ftp tomorrow, when I get a good floppy. There is a read me file in standard text format to lead you through the steps needed to create your new Forth disk. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Jun 28 18:29:57 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:29:57 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute In-Reply-To: <200406282236.i5SMaXrA049167@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <001c01c45d67$d70b1960$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> > In the days when I was active with my H89, I would often use > a 3.5 inch drive with my H37 controller. It was much more > convenient than the 5.25 inch disks. What did it take to run 3.5 drives with the H37? What drives did you use - did you need 720K or could you use 1.4M units? > that the floppy was hard sectored. This could be done with > both 5.12 and 3.5 inch disks - you would use soft sector > diskettes with the H17. > > Two questions: > 1. Has anyone already done this? > 2. Perhaps more important - Is anyone interested? 1) not that I'm aware of 2) I expect that there would be a (long?) line of people willing to buy a PCExpress board that would let them hook up 3.5 drives to an H17! I can think of at least 6 anyway (I'd be good for a couple, for sure). Jack -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Jun 28 19:26:18 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:26:18 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] H17 diskettes In-Reply-To: <200406282233.PAA22784@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200406282233.PAA22784@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <40E0B72A.7030906@sc.rr.com> I wish I could, but I really don't know what it is. From what little I've been able to find, I thought that Heath used 10 soft sectors just like the hard sector. But in fact, I don't have a clue what they did. Carroll Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >Hi > The data encoding is not compatable between the hard >and soft sectored. To read the soft sectored on a PC is >possible with hardware that can handle that density ( most >PC's are not capable of doing single density ). >There are boards specifically designed to do this. > If some wanted to give me a soft sectored setup, I could >write an addition to my transfer program to handle soft >sectored systems, as well as the hard sectored. >Dwight > > > > >>From: Peter >> >>I assume that you mean H17 hard sector disks. It was a long time ago, but I >>seem to remember some software (drivers) for CP/M to have the H37 read an >>H17 disk. It would seem possible to design some software to ignore the extra >>pulses generated by the sector holes in a hard sector disk. If not software, >>then some simple hardware should be able to do it. I don't know if anyone >>has done it. If not, it might be a challenge for me to try - IF I find time >>to do it! >> >>Regarding Media Master, I have not been able to make it work on my computers >>- it last worked on an original 386 machine. Are you running it on a Pentium >>machine? If so, what OS are you using? >> >>Peter >>----------------------------------------------------------- >>peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ >> >> >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>Has anyone found a way (or program) that will read H17 Soft Sector >>>diskettes on a PC? >>>I have Media Master, but it would not read them. >>>Carroll >>> >>> >>-- >>Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> >> >> > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Mon Jun 28 19:34:47 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:34:47 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute In-Reply-To: <001c01c45d67$d70b1960$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> References: <001c01c45d67$d70b1960$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <40E0B927.9040002@sc.rr.com> For my 2 cents worth, it would seem that a soft sectored controller could use a 3.5" diskette without too many modifications. CEW Jack Rubin wrote: >>In the days when I was active with my H89, I would often use >>a 3.5 inch drive with my H37 controller. It was much more >>convenient than the 5.25 inch disks. >> >> > >What did it take to run 3.5 drives with the H37? What drives did you use >- did you need 720K or could you use 1.4M units? > > > >>that the floppy was hard sectored. This could be done with >>both 5.12 and 3.5 inch disks - you would use soft sector >>diskettes with the H17. >> >>Two questions: >>1. Has anyone already done this? >>2. Perhaps more important - Is anyone interested? >> >> > >1) not that I'm aware of >2) I expect that there would be a (long?) line of people willing to buy >a PCExpress board that would let them hook up 3.5 drives to an H17! I >can think of at least 6 anyway (I'd be good for a couple, for sure). > >Jack > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 28 19:39:34 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute Message-ID: <200406290039.RAA22857@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Steve Thatcher and I talked about this a month ago. It seems like it would be a relatively easy project. One could do it with one of those PLL chips and a couple 555's from an analog side or just use a PIC to create the pulses. It saves having to find hard sectored disks. It does require that the drive be in good shape. The rotational speed has to be nice and constant. I don't know what the tolerance would be but I suspect it is within the range that most drives would work fine. As far as drives go, I'd suspect that a H17 would drive either a 720K or a 1.44M. Of course, it wouldn't be any faster. That would require a faster processor. You'd need to deal with any rotational rate change but I'm not sure what these are for these drives. As it is now, it is just about as fast as it needs to be between writing bytes. I should note that my Z80 machine includes the jumper modifications to do double sided disk. If anyone wants this information, I can make some notes. Dwight >From: "Jack Rubin" > >> In the days when I was active with my H89, I would often use >> a 3.5 inch drive with my H37 controller. It was much more >> convenient than the 5.25 inch disks. > >What did it take to run 3.5 drives with the H37? What drives did you use >- did you need 720K or could you use 1.4M units? > >> that the floppy was hard sectored. This could be done with >> both 5.12 and 3.5 inch disks - you would use soft sector >> diskettes with the H17. >> >> Two questions: >> 1. Has anyone already done this? >> 2. Perhaps more important - Is anyone interested? > >1) not that I'm aware of >2) I expect that there would be a (long?) line of people willing to buy >a PCExpress board that would let them hook up 3.5 drives to an H17! I >can think of at least 6 anyway (I'd be good for a couple, for sure). > >Jack > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 28 19:36:56 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:36:56 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute In-Reply-To: <001c01c45d67$d70b1960$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <200406290036.i5T0adAf051281@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp805.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Jun 2004 00:36:38 -0000 There is no magic or extra software needed to use 3.5 inch floppy disks. To the controller, they look just like a 5.25 inch drive. If you use a standard H37 controller, then you can only use 720k disks. If you have a CDR, Magnolia, or a modified H37 controller, then you can have high density 1.44M disks also. In this case, there will be modified drivers, but those have to do with the controller, not the drive. As for the "gizmo" to allow soft sector disk to work with the H17 controller, perhaps I can myself to it now that I have retired. The only problem is that we are trying to move to Fortuna, CA - but it appears that everyone else is wanting to do so also - no houses available, and in three offers that we made, we were outbid! I will post on any progress. You might want to send me reminders if you don't hear from me for a while - I sometimes forget ;) Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -----Original Message----- > > In the days when I was active with my H89, I would often use > > a 3.5 inch drive with my H37 controller. It was much more > > convenient than the 5.25 inch disks. > > What did it take to run 3.5 drives with the H37? What drives > did you use > - did you need 720K or could you use 1.4M units? can think of at least 6 anyway (I'd be good for a couple, for sure). > > Jack -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 28 19:45:57 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:45:57 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] H17 diskettes In-Reply-To: <40E0B72A.7030906@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <200406290045.i5T0jhUS051446@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp810.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Jun 2004 00:45:38 -0000 The problem is not in how many sectors were present on the soft sector disk, but in the density of the bits recorded on the track. Much of this is controlled by the integrated circuit that interfaces with the drive. This is what is known as the disk controller. In the H37 it was a 1797 disk controller IC. If the controller IC in your computer is not compatible with the bit density that the 1797 wrote, then your hardware will not be able to read the floppy - it has nothing to do with the drive. Maybe I got too technical? Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -----Original Message----- > I wish I could, but I really don't know what it is. From what little > I've been able to find, I thought that Heath used 10 soft > sectors just > like the hard sector. But in fact, I don't have a clue what they did. > Carroll > > Dwight K. Elvey wrote: -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 28 19:50:14 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:50:14 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute In-Reply-To: <200406290039.RAA22857@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200406290056.i5T0uEN0051592@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp814.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Jun 2004 00:49:56 -0000 The standard single or double density drive rotates at a speed of 300rpm. High density drives are faster at 360rpm. I don't know the relative stability of the rotational speed, but would suspect that you may have more trouble with a high density drive than a double density. This view is NOT supported by any experience or testing - just a guess on my part ;) Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -----Original Message----- > Steve Thatcher and I talked about this a month ago. It > seems like it would be a relatively easy project. One > could do it with one of those PLL chips and a couple 555's > from an analog side or just use a PIC to create the pulses. > It saves having to find hard sectored disks. It does require > that the drive be in good shape. The rotational speed > has to be nice and constant. I don't know what the > tolerance would be but I suspect it is within the > range that most drives would work fine. > As far as drives go, I'd suspect that a H17 would drive > either a 720K or a 1.44M. Of course, it wouldn't be > any faster. That would require a faster processor. > You'd need to deal with any rotational rate change but > I'm not sure what these are for these drives. > As it is now, it is just about as fast as it needs to > be between writing bytes. > I should note that my Z80 machine includes the jumper > modifications to do double sided disk. If anyone wants > this information, I can make some notes. > Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 05:43:14 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 06:43:14 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute Message-ID: <31704763.1088505794446.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net> a HD drive is able to read DD disks, so there should be a way to reduce the speed to 300rpm (I haven't looked at the HD interface in LONG time...). I don't think rotational stability will be an issue. If that were the case then DD SS disks would be problematic. The same drive does both HS and SS. The only latency issue with regards to hard sector disks would be the computer response time to "seeing" the index hole and when it really starts writing the sector data. That time will vary a little, but is ignored when drives are being read. I have been thinking about a PIC that would be able to not only supply the missing hard sector pulses, but also be able to remove them from hard sector disks. The PIC would work for both 5 1/4" and 8" drives and be smart enough to adjust itself based on the index hole. A few jumpers on it would set it for how many sector pulses to generate (1, 10, 16) and what drive size. Does anyone else have any suggestions or comments? best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Peter Sent: Jun 28, 2004 8:50 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: RE: [sebhc] hard sector substitute The standard single or double density drive rotates at a speed of 300rpm. High density drives are faster at 360rpm. I don't know the relative stability of the rotational speed, but would suspect that you may have more trouble with a high density drive than a double density. This view is NOT supported by any experience or testing - just a guess on my part ;) Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -----Original Message----- > Steve Thatcher and I talked about this a month ago. It > seems like it would be a relatively easy project. One > could do it with one of those PLL chips and a couple 555's > from an analog side or just use a PIC to create the pulses. > It saves having to find hard sectored disks. It does require > that the drive be in good shape. The rotational speed > has to be nice and constant. I don't know what the > tolerance would be but I suspect it is within the > range that most drives would work fine. > As far as drives go, I'd suspect that a H17 would drive > either a 720K or a 1.44M. Of course, it wouldn't be > any faster. That would require a faster processor. > You'd need to deal with any rotational rate change but > I'm not sure what these are for these drives. > As it is now, it is just about as fast as it needs to > be between writing bytes. > I should note that my Z80 machine includes the jumper > modifications to do double sided disk. If anyone wants > this information, I can make some notes. > Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 29 11:56:39 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Forth disk Message-ID: <200406291656.JAA23453@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I've sent a file called FIG4TH.ZIP to Steve to put into the ftp site. It includes images that have been confirmed to boot on a H8 w/ H8-4, H8 w/ H8-5 and H89. Please read the README. There is important information there. When using my H89TRANS program, make sure to set the volume override to 0. These images will not work if you use the volume from the image as though it were a HDOS disk. I'd like some feedback from those that try it out. It is mostly FIG Forth with a few custom words that I've entered. Since the full source is there and the meta compiler is there, one can change what ever one wants. For this reason I just left stuff there. As an example, there is a word PRINT that uses the parallel port that I made. It is not compatable with the Heathkit parallel port ( mostly because I've never seen one ). One could easily rewrite that word to handle a Heathkit parallel port. I wrote it in code level but one could write it in high level as well. You have the power to do what ever you please. MAKE SURE TO SET THE VOLUME OVERRIDE IN THE TRANSFER PROGRAM TO 0 ( zero ) FOR ALL OF THESE IMAGES!!!!! later Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From wm65805 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 14:41:34 2004 From: wm65805 at hotmail.com (Bill malcolm) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:41:34 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] RE: need password ? Message-ID: How to download files ? need password ? Should I have received it when I subscribed? thanks. bill .. >From: "Jack Rubin" >Reply-To: sebhc at sebhc.org >To: >Subject: RE: [sebhc] hard sector substitute >Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:29:57 -0500 > > > In the days when I was active with my H89, I would often use > > a 3.5 inch drive with my H37 controller. It was much more > > convenient than the 5.25 inch disks. > >What did it take to run 3.5 drives with the H37? What drives did you use >- did you need 720K or could you use 1.4M units? > > > that the floppy was hard sectored. This could be done with > > both 5.12 and 3.5 inch disks - you would use soft sector > > diskettes with the H17. > > > > Two questions: > > 1. Has anyone already done this? > > 2. Perhaps more important - Is anyone interested? > >1) not that I'm aware of >2) I expect that there would be a (long?) line of people willing to buy >a PCExpress board that would let them hook up 3.5 drives to an H17! I >can think of at least 6 anyway (I'd be good for a couple, for sure). > >Jack > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page ? FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From me at patswayne.com Tue Jun 29 15:57:45 2004 From: me at patswayne.com (Pat Swayne) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:57:45 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] RE: need password ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040629165716.03319328@mail.patswayne.com> Bill wrote: >How to download files ? need password ? The password is hdos8bit. -- Pat -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Tue Jun 29 17:37:41 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:37:41 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] soft controller Message-ID: <40E1EF35.6070900@sc.rr.com> Does anyone have the schematic for the H8 soft sector controller? Carroll -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 13:43:17 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:43:17 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute References: <31704763.1088505794446.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40E1B845.6B92@earthlink.net> I'm speaking anecdotally and from memory, so please allow for errors. Steve Thatcher wrote: > a HD drive is able to read DD disks, so there should be a way > to reduce the speed to 300rpm Older 5.25" and 3.5" HD drives could operate at two different speeds; 300 rpm for low-density, 360 rpm for high. But to save money, this feature was left out of most PC drives; instead, they have an extra crystal in the disk controller, and read/write even low-density data at the higher speed. > I have been thinking about a PIC that would be able to not only > supply the missing hard sector pulses, but also be able to remove > them from hard sector disks. I built a circuit to do this years ago. A CMOS phase locked loop chip used the single index hole of a soft-sector disk to create a 10x clock. This clock was ANDed in with the real index pulse to produce the 11 pulses per revolution to fool an H17 controller and software into thinking it was a hard-sector disk. > I don't think rotational stability will be an issue. It worked, but not very reliably. The disk drive needed good speed stability, and the disks had to rotate easily in their sleeves. I had too many disk drives and disks for which this wasn't true. > If that were the case then DD SS disks would be problematic. Except that soft-sector disk controllers extract the clock from the data stream itself. There can be substantial variations in disk rotation speed and the data can still be recovered. It's the same as tape recorder that runs at the wrong speed; the pitch may be wrong or even vary moment to moment, but everything is perfectly intelligible. In the old days, they tried to make the disk drive rotation speed precise, and so simplify the hardware in the controller. We went from synchronous motors in 8" drives (perfect speed control) to servo-controlled motors in full-height 5.25" drives (1% accuracy), to open-loop direct-drive motors in half-height 5.25" and 3.5" drives (2%), and in some extremes (Commodore and Macs) no speed control at all (5% or worse). > The only latency issue with regards to hard sector disks would > be the computer response time to "seeing" the index hole and when > it really starts writing the sector data. Yes. My PLL circuit took a couple rotations of the disk to "sync up". This is inherently longer than a real disk takes to get up to speed. > The PIC would work for both 5 1/4" and 8" drives and be smart > enough to adjust itself based on the index hole. A few jumpers > on it would set it for how many sector pulses to generate > (1, 10, 16) and what drive size. I'm sure a PIC could do it, but it is a *challenging* software problem in real-time control! -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 29 18:09:56 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:09:56 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] soft controller In-Reply-To: <40E1EF35.6070900@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <200406292309.i5TN9a1O073569@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Jun 2004 23:09:35 -0000 I have it for the H89, but not H8. I can scan and post if needed. Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -----Original Message----- > Does anyone have the schematic for the H8 soft sector controller? > Carroll > -- -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 29 18:19:17 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:19:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute Message-ID: <200406292319.QAA23664@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Lee I believe it can be done if one also includes a slight shift, based on the write gate. If it sees the write gate turned on, delay the hole slightly longer with a one shot. This way, the read has a little more space between the hole and the sync byte. One just needs to be careful to not overlap with the previous data for the read but there is a reasonable gap for the previous data to the hole. I'd have to look it up to see how long it was in uS. One would also allow a little for speed error. The other thing is that this delay would be greater for holes in around sector # 5 because the average rotational rate is usually quite constant ( at least when seen from my strobe wheel ). These disk wouldn't be easily moved from machine to machine but they should work reasonably well on the same machine. Dwight >From: "Lee Hart" > >I'm speaking anecdotally and from memory, so please allow for errors. > >Steve Thatcher wrote: >> a HD drive is able to read DD disks, so there should be a way >> to reduce the speed to 300rpm > >Older 5.25" and 3.5" HD drives could operate at two different speeds; >300 rpm for low-density, 360 rpm for high. But to save money, this >feature was left out of most PC drives; instead, they have an extra >crystal in the disk controller, and read/write even low-density data at >the higher speed. > >> I have been thinking about a PIC that would be able to not only >> supply the missing hard sector pulses, but also be able to remove >> them from hard sector disks. > >I built a circuit to do this years ago. A CMOS phase locked loop chip >used the single index hole of a soft-sector disk to create a 10x clock. >This clock was ANDed in with the real index pulse to produce the 11 >pulses per revolution to fool an H17 controller and software into >thinking it was a hard-sector disk. > >> I don't think rotational stability will be an issue. > >It worked, but not very reliably. The disk drive needed good speed >stability, and the disks had to rotate easily in their sleeves. I had >too many disk drives and disks for which this wasn't true. > >> If that were the case then DD SS disks would be problematic. > >Except that soft-sector disk controllers extract the clock from the data >stream itself. There can be substantial variations in disk rotation >speed and the data can still be recovered. It's the same as tape >recorder that runs at the wrong speed; the pitch may be wrong or even >vary moment to moment, but everything is perfectly intelligible. > >In the old days, they tried to make the disk drive rotation speed >precise, and so simplify the hardware in the controller. We went from >synchronous motors in 8" drives (perfect speed control) to >servo-controlled motors in full-height 5.25" drives (1% accuracy), to >open-loop direct-drive motors in half-height 5.25" and 3.5" drives (2%), >and in some extremes (Commodore and Macs) no speed control at all (5% or >worse). > >> The only latency issue with regards to hard sector disks would >> be the computer response time to "seeing" the index hole and when >> it really starts writing the sector data. > >Yes. My PLL circuit took a couple rotations of the disk to "sync up". >This is inherently longer than a real disk takes to get up to speed. > >> The PIC would work for both 5 1/4" and 8" drives and be smart >> enough to adjust itself based on the index hole. A few jumpers >> on it would set it for how many sector pulses to generate >> (1, 10, 16) and what drive size. > >I'm sure a PIC could do it, but it is a *challenging* software problem >in real-time control! >-- >"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed >citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever >has!" -- Margaret Mead >-- >Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 18:20:06 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:20:06 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute Message-ID: <15569844.1088551209126.JavaMail.root@daisy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> comments filled-in below... best regards, Steve Thatcher *-----Original Message----- *From: Lee Hart *Sent: Jun 29, 2004 2:43 PM *To: sebhc at sebhc.org *Subject: Re: [sebhc] hard sector substitute * *I'm speaking anecdotally and from memory, so please allow for errors. * *But to save money, this feature was left out of most PC drives; instead, they have an extra *crystal in the disk controller, and read/write even low-density data at *the higher speed. this would only make the newer drives not usable for the old controllers. > I have been thinking about a PIC that would be able to not only > supply the missing hard sector pulses, but also be able to remove > them from hard sector disks. *I built a circuit to do this years ago. A CMOS phase locked loop chip *used the single index hole of a soft-sector disk to create a 10x clock. *This clock was ANDed in with the real index pulse to produce the 11 *pulses per revolution to fool an H17 controller and software into *thinking it was a hard-sector disk. a PIC could do better than a PLL in that it could do more adjustments on the fly that the PLL takes a whole rotation to correct. > I don't think rotational stability will be an issue. *It worked, but not very reliably. The disk drive needed good speed *stability, and the disks had to rotate easily in their sleeves. I had *too many disk drives and disks for which this wasn't true. the PIC could adjust it's time base on data coming from the drive too so index hole position would be more accurate even during a single rotation > If that were the case then DD SS disks would be problematic. *Except that soft-sector disk controllers extract the clock from the data *stream itself. There can be substantial variations in disk rotation *speed and the data can still be recovered. It's the same as tape *recorder that runs at the wrong speed; the pitch may be wrong or even *vary moment to moment, but everything is perfectly intelligible. * *In the old days, they tried to make the disk drive rotation speed *precise, and so simplify the hardware in the controller. We went from *synchronous motors in 8" drives (perfect speed control) to *servo-controlled motors in full-height 5.25" drives (1% accuracy), to *open-loop direct-drive motors in half-height 5.25" and 3.5" drives (2%), *and in some extremes (Commodore and Macs) no speed control at all (5% or *worse). non-issue for hard sector disks - the only issue is when the index hole happens and data starts being read or written. With a PIC design, even the data coming from the disk could be used to adjust the rate of the index hole. Soft sector does get separet out data and clock, but it still needs a certain about of stability (same idea as serial data streams used in RS232. A certain amout of mismatch between the writing clock and the drive that it is being read in is expected and that is why the sync areas are generated between SS sectors. > The only latency issue with regards to hard sector disks would > be the computer response time to "seeing" the index hole and when > it really starts writing the sector data. *Yes. My PLL circuit took a couple rotations of the disk to "sync up". *This is inherently longer than a real disk takes to get up to speed. at least for N* that we are talking about, the controller give the drives more than a second to come up to speed, so the lock time is not a problem. > The PIC would work for both 5 1/4" and 8" drives and be smart > enough to adjust itself based on the index hole. A few jumpers > on it would set it for how many sector pulses to generate > (1, 10, 16) and what drive size. *I'm sure a PIC could do it, but it is a *challenging* software problem *in real-time control! that is what makes it fun to do and quite up my alley so to speak given my decades of hardware and software development in real-time control. -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 18:21:50 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:21:50 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [sebhc] soft controller Message-ID: <6605562.1088551311226.JavaMail.root@daisy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Hi Peter, I could use the schematics of the H89 SS controller. I have one sitting in another H89 back in Washington state that I am picking up at the end of July. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Peter Sent: Jun 29, 2004 7:09 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: RE: [sebhc] soft controller I have it for the H89, but not H8. I can scan and post if needed. Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From wm65805 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 23:18:16 2004 From: wm65805 at hotmail.com (Bill malcolm) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:18:16 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] H-8 emulator ? Message-ID: Hi : I am looking for H-8 for mac ? I might like to port to OS X. bill .. _________________________________________________________________ Get fast, reliable Internet access with MSN 9 Dial-up ? now 3 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 01:16:27 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:16:27 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute References: <15569844.1088551209126.JavaMail.root@daisy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40E25ABB.4F26@earthlink.net> >> to save money, [variable speed] was left out of most PC drives; >> instead, they have an extra crystal in the disk controller, and >> read/write even low-density data at the higher speed. Steve Thatcher wrote: > this would only make the newer drives not usable for the old > controllers. Yes; indeed, it does. >> A CMOS phase locked loop chip used the single index hole of a >> soft-sector disk to create a 10x clock. This clock was ANDed >> in with the real index pulse to produce the 11 pulses per >> revolution to fool an H17 controller and software into >> thinking it was a hard-sector disk. > a PIC could do better than a PLL in that it could do more > adjustments on the fly that the PLL takes a whole rotation > to correct. You might find it worthwhile to study how PLLs work. They are not digital circuits; they *do* make corrections dynamically, within one rotation. It is usually digital systems that have trouble matching the performance of a PLL, rather than vice versa. > the PIC could adjust it's time base on data coming from the drive > too so index hole position would be more accurate even during a > single rotation This is a good idea, and may work for reads. But there's a catch-22 here: You need to know the speed to read the data accurately. The saving grace for the Heath H17 format is that it is single-density; the pulses alternate clock-data-clock-data; while the data pulses may or may not be present (depending on whether it is a 1 or 0), the clock pulses are always present. So, it might be possible to extract the clock during reads (coasting over the sector gaps), and use it to figure out the rotational speed to create the sector holes. >> Except that soft-sector disk controllers extract the clock from >> the data > non-issue for hard sector disks - the only issue is when the > index hole happens and data starts being read or written. If your PIC is trying to create fake hard-sector holes so a Heath H17 controller can read them even from a physically soft-sector disk, then the rotational speed of the disk drive is *still* a problem. If it's a newer 5.25" or 3.5" drive that only rotates at the faster speed, how are you going to slow down the data so the H17 controller can read it? The only option is to read the data with the PIC, and then re-transmit it at a slower rate -- possible, but a real software challenge. > same idea as serial data streams used in RS232 Except that RS-232 uses crystal-controlled clocks, so speed is extrememly accurate. > at least for N* that we are talking about, the controller gives > the drives more than a second to come up to speed, so the lock > time is not a problem. Suppose you are copying files from one H17 to another H17 disk. The device that is creating the fake sector holes has to wait for a pair of index holes (one full revolution) each time it switches disks. So, while my hardware circuit worked, it was slower than real disks because of the extra time the H89 spent waiting for the disk to get "up to speed" (really, for the PLL circuit to lock in and start producing valid sector pulses). >> I'm sure a PIC could do it, but it is a *challenging* software >> problem in real-time control! > that is what makes it fun to do and quite up my alley so to speak > given my decades of hardware and software development in real-time > control. Great! That is just the sort of experience you'd need. Too many programmers are clueless about real-time control. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 30 05:40:18 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 06:40:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute Message-ID: <20040630104018.A221A1EC317@outbox.allstream.net> >Suppose you are copying files from one H17 to another H17 disk. The >device that is creating the fake sector holes has to wait for a pair of >index holes (one full revolution) each time it switches disks. So, while >my hardware circuit worked, it was slower than real disks because of the >extra time the H89 spent waiting for the disk to get "up to speed" >(really, for the PLL circuit to lock in and start producing valid sector >pulses). Does the H17 switch each drive motor off when selecting drives for a disk to disk copy? The N* does not - when copying one disk to another, both drives stay on, and the drives simply get selected back and forth. In fact, there is only one motor-on signal, so all drives come on for any operation. Most drives can also be modified for "motor on select", however every drive I've seen that does this also implements a timer so that the drive remains on for a period of time between selects. I've thought about building such a device, and I decided that it would be best to attach it to the drive (ie: one per drive - not one per controller). Basically, an itty-bitty micro (PIC, AVR etc.) would have to be able to see: - Motor on signal (to the motor - not necessarily the drive interface) - Index hole sensor (even when drive deselected And be able to drive the index hole output back to the drive (so it would be gated by select) - alternatively - gate it externally. The MCU would watch the index hole, and could time how long from one edge to the next - after 1-2 revolutions (depending on position if index hole) it would be able to insert phony pulses to simulate the other 10/16 holes. By watching how long after motor-on before the first index pulse, you can handle cases where the index hole is near the sensor and the drive is not up to speed for the first pulse. As long as the motors are not turned off, you can continue to "sync" and no further time is wasted. If the system turns the motors off when switching from one drive to the other (I can't imagine a system that would do this), you could add the Motor control to the output of the device, and implement your own timer to delay shutting off the motor. An alternate solution: - Take a dead drive And modify it with a homemade punch that can punch through the index hole. - Put a 10 sector disk in it - carefully line up the 11th hole and put it in the drive - mark this as the "master" position on the drive wheel (Assuming a direct drive) - Move the wheel for each of the other sectors, and mark the position on the wheel - Now you have a jig for making 10-sector disks: - Align soft-sector diskette to put index hole in position - Aligh wheel to master postion and insert disk. - Move wheel to other marked position and activate punch at each position. Tough part would be making the punch - any takers? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 06:16:46 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:16:46 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute Message-ID: <60740-220046330111646671@M2W050.mail2web.com> if you put the device on each drive, you would also have to "switch off" the input and output lines. The index hole output will go "off" when the drive is deselected which means that you would have to keep all drives (that had been accessed recently) selected to keep them synched. You also would not want the direction and step control to be "seen" by drives that should be deselected. Not a problem just something that would have to be done by an added device. best regards, Steve Thatcher Original Message: ----------------- From: Dave Dunfield dave04a at dunfield.com Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 06:40:18 -0400 (EDT) To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] hard sector substitute >Suppose you are copying files from one H17 to another H17 disk. The >device that is creating the fake sector holes has to wait for a pair of >index holes (one full revolution) each time it switches disks. So, while >my hardware circuit worked, it was slower than real disks because of the >extra time the H89 spent waiting for the disk to get "up to speed" >(really, for the PLL circuit to lock in and start producing valid sector >pulses). Does the H17 switch each drive motor off when selecting drives for a disk to disk copy? The N* does not - when copying one disk to another, both drives stay on, and the drives simply get selected back and forth. In fact, there is only one motor-on signal, so all drives come on for any operation. Most drives can also be modified for "motor on select", however every drive I've seen that does this also implements a timer so that the drive remains on for a period of time between selects. I've thought about building such a device, and I decided that it would be best to attach it to the drive (ie: one per drive - not one per controller). Basically, an itty-bitty micro (PIC, AVR etc.) would have to be able to see: - Motor on signal (to the motor - not necessarily the drive interface) - Index hole sensor (even when drive deselected And be able to drive the index hole output back to the drive (so it would be gated by select) - alternatively - gate it externally. The MCU would watch the index hole, and could time how long from one edge to the next - after 1-2 revolutions (depending on position if index hole) it would be able to insert phony pulses to simulate the other 10/16 holes. By watching how long after motor-on before the first index pulse, you can handle cases where the index hole is near the sensor and the drive is not up to speed for the first pulse. As long as the motors are not turned off, you can continue to "sync" and no further time is wasted. If the system turns the motors off when switching from one drive to the other (I can't imagine a system that would do this), you could add the Motor control to the output of the device, and implement your own timer to delay shutting off the motor. An alternate solution: - Take a dead drive And modify it with a homemade punch that can punch through the index hole. - Put a 10 sector disk in it - carefully line up the 11th hole and put it in the drive - mark this as the "master" position on the drive wheel (Assuming a direct drive) - Move the wheel for each of the other sectors, and mark the position on the wheel - Now you have a jig for making 10-sector disks: - Align soft-sector diskette to put index hole in position - Aligh wheel to master postion and insert disk. - Move wheel to other marked position and activate punch at each position. Tough part would be making the punch - any takers? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 06:18:05 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:18:05 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute Message-ID: <220020-22004633011185482@M2W034.mail2web.com> *You might find it worthwhile to study how PLLs work. They are not *digital circuits; they *do* make corrections dynamically, within one *rotation. It is usually digital systems that have trouble matching the *performance of a PLL, rather than vice versa. the PLL still does not have feedback to adjust ANYTHING between index holes. All it can do is keep things constant until the next index hole which is hardly adjusting things dynamically during a single rotation > the PIC could adjust it's time base on data coming from the drive > too so index hole position would be more accurate even during a > single rotation *This is a good idea, and may work for reads. But there's a catch-22 *here: You need to know the speed to read the data accurately. You still know what the optimum speed of the disk should be. *the saving grace for the Heath H17 format is that it is single-density; *the pulses alternate clock-data-clock-data; while the data pulses may or *may not be present (depending on whether it is a 1 or 0), the clock *pulses are always present. So, it might be possible to extract the clock *during reads (coasting over the sector gaps), and use it to figure out *the rotational speed to create the sector holes. a clock/data separator is quite doable and could supply feedback for speed adjustments. Won't be there for a blank disk though... >> Except that soft-sector disk controllers extract the clock from >> the data > non-issue for hard sector disks - the only issue is when the > index hole happens and data starts being read or written. *If your PIC is trying to create fake hard-sector holes so a Heath H17 *controller can read them even from a physically soft-sector disk, then *the rotational speed of the disk drive is *still* a problem. If it's a *newer 5.25" or 3.5" drive that only rotates at the faster speed, how are *you going to slow down the data so the H17 controller can read it? The *only option is to read the data with the PIC, and then re-transmit it at *a slower rate -- possible, but a real software challenge. The task was not focused on making new floppy drives work (not to say that the drive itself could not be modified...). > same idea as serial data streams used in RS232 *Except that RS-232 uses crystal-controlled clocks, so speed is *extrememly accurate. there are still variations between machines. The idea is the same in that a clock deviation will manifest itself into bit errors (after so many bits) during a synchronous data stream being received by something that has a slightly different rate. > at least for N* that we are talking about, the controller gives > the drives more than a second to come up to speed, so the lock > time is not a problem. *Suppose you are copying files from one H17 to another H17 disk. The *device that is creating the fake sector holes has to wait for a pair of *index holes (one full revolution) each time it switches disks. So, while *my hardware circuit worked, it was slower than real disks because of the *extra time the H89 spent waiting for the disk to get "up to speed" *(really, for the PLL circuit to lock in and start producing valid sector *pulses). that would certainly be the case if you had one PLL for all the drives in the system. It would be interesting to use a PIC for each drive and incorporate a little logic to keep the drive active and synched for some default time as long as at least one drive is still being accessed in the system. Of course, a few extra parts to "isolate" drive signals that could disrupt a drive that isn't being "really" accessed. >> I'm sure a PIC could do it, but it is a *challenging* software >> problem in real-time control! > that is what makes it fun to do and quite up my alley so to speak > given my decades of hardware and software development in real-time > control. *Great! That is just the sort of experience you'd need. Too many *programmers are clueless about real-time control. Not a programmer... electronics engineer - a couple of reasons why: I was interviewing with Mentor Graphics for a Field Representative for their CAE design systems. They needed someone who knew hardware and software. When I was asked if I was a programmer, I responded yes. I certainly had the software background at that time to write any type of software. I was told later by a friend that I had blown the interview. If I had said software engineer, then that would have been acceptable. It seems Mentor had this idea that being just a programmer was not the type of person they needed. The first "programmer" I met had no clue that software took time to execute (1978 - 8080 based system). He had written a complex program to control a big hardware machine with a stepper motor, print head, solenoid, CRT display, and a few other things. I walked in when he was testing the system and he could not understand why the motor was advancing paper in a jerky fashion. I perused his code for a few hours to get a handle on what he had written and then I asked him how long his interrupt routine took to execute and how often it was being called (pretty standard stuff for real-time control). He had this blank expression on his face and said he didn't know about how long, but an interrupt was generated every 200us. I got out a scope and proceeded to find out that his interrupt routine was taking 300us to execute, so of course it was missing interrupts at a pseudo random rate. I rewrote his routine to get it below 200us and then everything worked fine. best regards, Steve Thatcher -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Jun 30 06:36:14 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 06:36:14 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute (for caffeine) In-Reply-To: <220020-22004633011185482@M2W034.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <000001c45e96$74f846f0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> > He had this blank expression on his face and said he didn't > know about how long, but an interrupt was generated every > 200us. I got out a scope and proceeded to find out that his > interrupt routine was taking 300us to execute, so of course > it was missing interrupts at a pseudo random rate. I rewrote > his routine to get it below 200us and then everything worked fine. > > best regards, Steve Thatcher > LOL - better than Starbucks to start the day - thanks! Jack -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 30 06:55:22 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:55:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute Message-ID: <20040630115522.4E08DB4806@outbox.allstream.net> >if you put the device on each drive, you would also have to "switch off" >the input and output lines. The index hole output will go "off" when the >drive is deselected which means that you would have to keep all drives >(that had been accessed recently) selected to keep them synched. You also >would not want the direction and step control to be "seen" by drives that >should be deselected. Not a problem just something that would have to be >done by an added device. Steve, I guess I was not clear - I think it would be best to modify the drive so that these signals are available to our adapter even when the drive is deselected. If you use the traditional "Motor ON" control line instead of the "Motor on select", you can keep the drive running even when it's not selected - by attaching to the index sensor BEFORE the drive select logic, we should be able to read it even if the drive is deselected. As for the index output - you would have to gate that externally with select anyway because we have to generate pulses that the drive does not generate, Again if you were modifying the drive, you could do this by injecting the additional sector pulses BEFORE the drive select logic. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 07:14:15 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:14:15 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute Message-ID: <18484857.1088597655582.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Hi Dave, I was not contemplating modification of the drives and I also wanted to make the device work on any hard sector system. N* uses HS and not HM for example (I have both N* and H88 systems...). best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Dave Dunfield Steve, I guess I was not clear - I think it would be best to modify the drive so that these signals are available to our adapter even when the drive is deselected. If you use the traditional "Motor ON" control line instead of the "Motor on select", you can keep the drive running even when it's not selected - by attaching to the index sensor BEFORE the drive select logic, we should be able to read it even if the drive is deselected. As for the index output - you would have to gate that externally with select anyway because we have to generate pulses that the drive does not generate, Again if you were modifying the drive, you could do this by injecting the additional sector pulses BEFORE the drive select logic. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 30 07:51:41 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:51:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute Message-ID: <20040630125141.B6B2A5D1D@outbox.allstream.net> At 08:14 30/06/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Dave, I was not contemplating modification of the drives and I also wanted to make the device work on any hard sector system. N* uses HS and not HM for example (I have both N* and H88 systems...). > >best regards, Steve Thatcher Hi Steve, Understood - my point is that I think it would work better if yo do modify the drives - Perhaps this can be "faked" by externally gating all the drive signals, however I anticipate problems in switching to and from writing selected to "deselected", and you also have the interesting "feature" that all drive select LED's would be on at once! - but it may be feasable. Here's another intesting idea - many drives have strobe disks for adjusting the speed - this could be used to "read" the drive speed optically, and therefore you could know exactly how often to inject the extra pulses - you still have the sync problem with the main index hole, but it would solve the problem of having to wait for it twice to obtain exact drive speed. It would mean that your adapter card would need a little sensor mounted under the drive however. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 08:58:57 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:58:57 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute Message-ID: <17234084.1088603937557.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Hi Dave, only drives that had been accessed recently would be on for a default time. If you didn't access it again within a second or two then the drive would deselect internally. If you are copying disks, then both being on wouldn't be that unexpected. If you are writing on a drive, the main system will still deselect the drive and the write gate would already be turned off from writing the last sector. Good idea about the disk drive wheel. I had forgotten about that and it would be a "fine" encoder for giving speed feedback. As for waiting for the index hole, a drive controller would be forced to wait for the main index hole anyway to then count the index holes to the correct sector to read or write. There would be no inaccuracy on the main index hole and then an acculative effect on the rest of the holes if there was no speed feedback until the main index hole came around again. best regards, Steve -----Original Message----- From: Dave Dunfield Sent: Jun 30, 2004 8:51 AM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] hard sector substitute At 08:14 30/06/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Dave, I was not contemplating modification of the drives and I also wanted to make the device work on any hard sector system. N* uses HS and not HM for example (I have both N* and H88 systems...). > >best regards, Steve Thatcher Hi Steve, Understood - my point is that I think it would work better if yo do modify the drives - Perhaps this can be "faked" by externally gating all the drive signals, however I anticipate problems in switching to and from writing selected to "deselected", and you also have the interesting "feature" that all drive select LED's would be on at once! - but it may be feasable. Here's another intesting idea - many drives have strobe disks for adjusting the speed - this could be used to "read" the drive speed optically, and therefore you could know exactly how often to inject the extra pulses - you still have the sync problem with the main index hole, but it would solve the problem of having to wait for it twice to obtain exact drive speed. It would mean that your adapter card would need a little sensor mounted under the drive however. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From waltm22 at comcast.net Wed Jun 30 11:56:09 2004 From: waltm22 at comcast.net (Walter Moore) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:56:09 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute In-Reply-To: <220020-22004633011185482@M2W034.mail2web.com> References: <220020-22004633011185482@M2W034.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040630083734.0211f478@mail.comcast.net> >I was interviewing with Mentor Graphics for a Field Representative for >their CAE design systems. They needed someone who knew hardware and >software. When I was asked if I was a programmer, I responded yes. I >certainly had the software background at that time to write any type of >software. I was told later by a friend that I had blown the interview. If I >had said software engineer, then that would have been acceptable. It seems >Mentor had this idea that being just a programmer was not the type of >person they needed. I have always found the term "Software Engineer" amusing. Last time I checked here in Washington (the state), you could not call yourself a "Software Engineer." Why? Because before you could use the title "Engineer" you had to pass a state test for certification. There was no such test here then, and I have not heard of such a test currently (but then, I'm not looking for one). Of course this hasn't stopped people from saying they are a software engineer just because it sounds sexier than programmer. I've had to fix/redesign (oops, make that re-architect) too many of these so-self-called engineer's code to know that it doesn't matter what title you want to use, your code will tell us how good you are. I'm a programmer. My code speaks for itself. ..walt -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From shieldsm at gmail.com Wed Jun 30 12:03:16 2004 From: shieldsm at gmail.com (Mike Shields) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:03:16 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040630083734.0211f478@mail.comcast.net> References: <220020-22004633011185482@M2W034.mail2web.com> <6.1.1.1.2.20040630083734.0211f478@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <13135db40406301003441f07be@mail.gmail.com> > > I have always found the term "Software Engineer" amusing. Last time I > checked here in Washington (the state), you could not call yourself a > "Software Engineer." Why? Because before you could use the title > "Engineer" you had to pass a state test for certification. There was no > such test here then, and I have not heard of such a test currently (but > then, I'm not looking for one). Of course this hasn't stopped people from > saying they are a software engineer just because it sounds sexier than > programmer. I've had to fix/redesign (oops, make that re-architect) too > many of these so-self-called engineer's code to know that it doesn't matter > what title you want to use, your code will tell us how good you are. > > I'm a programmer. My code speaks for itself. > > ..walt Sorry, I've got nothing really to add to this, but Hear, hear! Walt speaketh the truth! -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 30 12:34:09 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Making hard sectored disk Message-ID: <200406301734.KAA24437@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Steve Thatcher" > >Hi Dave, I was not contemplating modification of the drives and I also wanted to make the device work on any hard sector system. N* uses HS and not HM for example (I have both N* and H88 systems...). > >best regards, Steve Thatcher > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Dave Dunfield > > >Steve, > >I guess I was not clear - I think it would be best to modify the drive so >that these signals are available to our adapter even when the drive is >deselected. If you use the traditional "Motor ON" control line instead of >the "Motor on select", you can keep the drive running even when it's not >selected - by attaching to the index sensor BEFORE the drive select logic, >we should be able to read it even if the drive is deselected. > >As for the index output - you would have to gate that externally with select >anyway because we have to generate pulses that the drive does not generate, >Again if you were modifying the drive, you could do this by injecting the >additional sector pulses BEFORE the drive select logic. > >Regards, >Dave > Hi Steve I am in the process of doing this( when I get around to it ). I have a gutted SA400 that will work nicely. Making a punch is not all that hard. I intend to mount part of the punch on the frame and the other part on the hinged piece that holds the disk. I'll be putting detents on the pulley/flywheel that will locat for the holes. The holes are about .100 inches in diameter. There is a drill size that is almost exactly this size ( I forget which ). I have one of those Shearline lathes so I should be able to make the needed pieces. I also have the mill attachment. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 12:50:44 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:50:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute Message-ID: <25752363.1088617844890.JavaMail.root@statler.psp.pas.earthlink.net> considering that I worked in Washington state for 27 years and there was never any issue having a title of software engineer, principal engineer, electronics engineer, etc (without taking a state test), I would be interested in seeing what you referenced for your research. It is true that if you want a Professional Engineer certification, then you indeed have to test a state test and pass it. Do keep in mind that not all software engineers are as incompetent as the ones you obviously worked with... and not all programmers are as competent as you are... best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Walter Moore Sent: Jun 30, 2004 12:56 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] hard sector substitute >I was interviewing with Mentor Graphics for a Field Representative for >their CAE design systems. They needed someone who knew hardware and >software. When I was asked if I was a programmer, I responded yes. I >certainly had the software background at that time to write any type of >software. I was told later by a friend that I had blown the interview. If I >had said software engineer, then that would have been acceptable. It seems >Mentor had this idea that being just a programmer was not the type of >person they needed. I have always found the term "Software Engineer" amusing. Last time I checked here in Washington (the state), you could not call yourself a "Software Engineer." Why? Because before you could use the title "Engineer" you had to pass a state test for certification. There was no such test here then, and I have not heard of such a test currently (but then, I'm not looking for one). Of course this hasn't stopped people from saying they are a software engineer just because it sounds sexier than programmer. I've had to fix/redesign (oops, make that re-architect) too many of these so-self-called engineer's code to know that it doesn't matter what title you want to use, your code will tell us how good you are. I'm a programmer. My code speaks for itself. ..walt -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 14:20:47 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:20:47 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute (for caffeine) References: <000001c45e96$74f846f0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <40E3128F.6FCC@earthlink.net> > He had this blank expression on his face and said he didn't > know about how long, but an interrupt was generated every > 200us. I got out a scope and proceeded to find out that his > interrupt routine was taking 300us to execute, so of course > it was missing interrupts at a pseudo random rate. I rewrote > his routine to get it below 200us and then everything worked fine. Great story! -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 14:20:02 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:20:02 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute References: <220020-22004633011185482@M2W034.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <40E31262.AE2@earthlink.net> melamy at earthlink.net wrote: > the PLL still does not have feedback to adjust ANYTHING between > index holes. All it can do is keep things constant until the > next index hole which is hardly adjusting things dynamically > during a single rotation Oh yes it does! This is why I suggested you study up on PLLs. A PLL consists of 3 basic parts; a VCO (voltage controlled oscillator), a phase detector (that compares the VCO frequency to the input frequency), and a loop filter (an RC network that determines how the phase detector's output affects the VCO). Suppose it is "in lock". Then the phase detector outputs say the frequency *and phase* of the VCO and input frequencies are identical. The phase detector output is 0 error. The loop filter converts this to a constant DC voltage, so the VCO frequency does not change. Suppose the input frequency changes. The phase detector immediately outputs an error signal because the *phase* of the frequencies is changing (it would have been constant if in lock). This rapidly changing error signal is integrated by the loop filter to become a changing DC voltage to steer the VCO in the direction of the frequency error. In the case of switching between two H17 disks, the frequency of the index pulses is the same, but the phase suddenly changes. The newly selected drive's index pulse will occur from immediately to the full proper time later; so the average error is 1/2 a rotation. This early index pulse looks to the phase detector like the frequency went up. As soon as it sees that very first pulse, the error signal goes high, and the loop filter starts ramping up the VCO frequency. But, we're out of phase lock. The simulated sector holes would be in the wrong places. That's why I used the phase detector's "lock" output to inhibit index pulses. The VCO frequency has to increase to "catch up" with the new drive's index hole, and then slow back down to the original frequency to achieve lock. If you understand analog filter theory, you'll know that the loop filter can be underdamped, overdamped, or critically damped. How you design it determines how long it takes to achieve lock. By locking out the simulated sector pulses, I could use an underdamped filter that responds faster, but overshoots and has to come back to the mark. >> the PIC could adjust it's time base on data coming from the drive >> too so index hole position would be more accurate even during a >> single rotation This is true during read. The PLL could also have used the data clock from a read. However, you also need to have it work with blank disks, misformatted disks, or during writes. > You still know what the optimum speed of the disk should be. You know what is should be, but you don't know what it actually *is*. > The task was not focused on making new floppy drives work (not > to say that the drive itself could not be modified...). Quite true if you are still using a "360k" 5.25" floppy drive, and just want to be able to use it with soft-sector disks on an H17 controller. But, if you try to use a modern 5.25" 1.2meg or 3.5" 1.44meg drive, then the speed issue presents itself. [Along the lines of my last post, on making all these changes in the H8/H89's own H17 driver: You know, if we change the H17 driver software, it *could* use modern 5.25" 1.2meg or 3.5" 1.44meg drives and disks. By changing the H17 controller's clock frequency, it would produce single-density data at twice the data rate; thus working with these drives and providing quadruple the capacity!] -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 13:09:25 2004 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:09:25 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] hard sector substitute References: <20040630104018.A221A1EC317@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <40E301D5.5E30@earthlink.net> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Does the H17 switch each drive motor off when selecting drives > for a disk to disk copy? Like your Northstar, the Heath H8 and H89 have a single motor select, so all disk drives connected to a controller start/stop their motors at the same time. The extra delay when switching disks in my hardware hard-sector circuit occurred because the PLL circuit had a "lock" detector output that inhibited the extra sector pulses if it wasn't phase-locked. If you switched disks, it lost lock until it had seen a couple index holes (more than one complete revolution). With a real disk drive, the new drive selected was already spinning up to speed, so the software started reading as soon as it saw the first index hole (typically half a revolution). However, you can have two disk controllers, each with its own motor select line. For example, when copying files between an H17 and an H37 disk. In this case, when a drive on the second controller is selected, its motor select line may have already timed out and turned off; so the time to start the motor and wait for it to get up to speed was an additional delay. My circuit's delay was equivalent to this happening every time a new drive was selected. > I've thought about building such a device... You know, the funny thing is that we have source for the Heath software, and all the tools for writing 8080/Z80 code. We could just write a new H17 driver that doesn't depend on the sector holes. No new hardware at all is needed. The interesting thing about this approach is that we know so many more "tricks" today for high performance disk systems. In the "old days", the designers were delighted just to get it to work at all. They didn't have the luxury of extra time to perfect the software to get greater performance. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Wed Jun 30 13:17:40 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:17:40 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Soft or Hard? Message-ID: <40E303C4.9020809@sc.rr.com> I wonder if it wouldn't just be easier to use the soft sector controller that Heath made for the H8 / H89. Am I missing the point? Why try to fool the H17 into thinking that a soft sector is a hard sector. CEW -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 13:31:01 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:31:01 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [sebhc] Soft or Hard? Message-ID: <20733763.1088620262470.JavaMail.root@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> the reason this whole thing started was to be able to use soft sector disks in a hard sector controller. The only reason to do that was to be able to use disks that are easier to come by. I am not aware of any soft sector controllers (1771, 1793, 765, 8272, etc) that can be told to read hard sector formatted disks. The hard sector holes were used to mark a position on disk to read and write on. In a soft sectored format, data is written across an entire track when you format a disk. When you go to write on a specific sector, the controller actually reads the sector info off the track in order to find and then the write at the proper position. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Carroll Waddell Sent: Jun 30, 2004 2:17 PM To: sebhc Subject: [sebhc] Soft or Hard? I wonder if it wouldn't just be easier to use the soft sector controller that Heath made for the H8 / H89. Am I missing the point? Why try to fool the H17 into thinking that a soft sector is a hard sector. CEW -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com Wed Jun 30 14:05:30 2004 From: CarrollWaddell at sc.rr.com (Carroll Waddell) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:05:30 -0400 Subject: [sebhc] Soft or Hard? In-Reply-To: <20733763.1088620262470.JavaMail.root@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <20733763.1088620262470.JavaMail.root@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40E30EFA.5090906@sc.rr.com> What I meant was, why use a hard sector controller at all. Didn't Heath make a soft sector controller? Why not use (or remanufacture) that? Steve Thatcher wrote: >the reason this whole thing started was to be able to use soft sector disks in a hard sector controller. The only reason to do that was to be able to use disks that are easier to come by. > >I am not aware of any soft sector controllers (1771, 1793, 765, 8272, etc) that can be told to read hard sector formatted disks. The hard sector holes were used to mark a position on disk to read and write on. In a soft sectored format, data is written across an entire track when you format a disk. When you go to write on a specific sector, the controller actually reads the sector info off the track in order to find and then the write at the proper position. > >best regards, Steve Thatcher > >-----Original Message----- >From: Carroll Waddell >Sent: Jun 30, 2004 2:17 PM >To: sebhc >Subject: [sebhc] Soft or Hard? > >I wonder if it wouldn't just be easier to use the soft sector controller >that Heath made for the H8 / H89. >Am I missing the point? Why try to fool the H17 into thinking that a >soft sector is a hard sector. >CEW >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 30 14:27:30 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sebhc] Soft or Hard? Message-ID: <200406301927.MAA24534@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Carroll Waddell" > >What I meant was, why use a hard sector controller at all. Didn't Heath >make a soft sector controller? Why not use (or remanufacture) that? > > Hi I don't expect to make a new disk controller for my H8. I expect to be able to use the H17. This is just an alternate way of dealing with these things. We'd like to keep with the images that were intended to run under the hard sectored machines. The images for the hard sector drives will not run on the soft sectored machines. One would have to make sure that all the places that do low level access to the disk are replaced by the soft sectored access. Most applictions may use the system calls so it is possible to move the high level files from one to the other but not the OS specific files. This would require moving only specific files and not images. The INIT command for hard sectored would not work for the soft sectored as an example. The editor might work in both. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Jun 30 14:51:13 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:51:13 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [sebhc] Soft or Hard? Message-ID: <2127083.1088625074652.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net> remanufacturing a SS controller certainly is possible, but what was desired was the ability to use the original HS hardware and not replace the controller with something else. Of course, my "other" old computer is a N* which alos uses hard sector disks, so the idea was to make "something" that would not be machine dependent. best regards, Steve -----Original Message----- From: Carroll Waddell Sent: Jun 30, 2004 3:05 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] Soft or Hard? What I meant was, why use a hard sector controller at all. Didn't Heath make a soft sector controller? Why not use (or remanufacture) that? Steve Thatcher wrote: >the reason this whole thing started was to be able to use soft sector disks in a hard sector controller. The only reason to do that was to be able to use disks that are easier to come by. > >I am not aware of any soft sector controllers (1771, 1793, 765, 8272, etc) that can be told to read hard sector formatted disks. The hard sector holes were used to mark a position on disk to read and write on. In a soft sectored format, data is written across an entire track when you format a disk. When you go to write on a specific sector, the controller actually reads the sector info off the track in order to find and then the write at the proper position. > >best regards, Steve Thatcher > >-----Original Message----- >From: Carroll Waddell >Sent: Jun 30, 2004 2:17 PM >To: sebhc >Subject: [sebhc] Soft or Hard? > >I wonder if it wouldn't just be easier to use the soft sector controller >that Heath made for the H8 / H89. >Am I missing the point? Why try to fool the H17 into thinking that a >soft sector is a hard sector. >CEW >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Jun 30 17:55:46 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:55:46 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Soft or Hard - why not go virtual? In-Reply-To: <200406301927.MAA24534@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <000001c45ef5$61a4b840$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> > I don't expect to make a new disk controller for > my H8. I expect to be able to use the H17. This > is just an alternate way of dealing with these > things. > We'd like to keep with the images that were > intended to run under the hard sectored machines. > The INIT command for hard sectored would not > work for the soft sectored as an example. > The editor might work in both. > Dwight Most "normal" programs really don't care how they get loaded into system memory; thanks to HDOS' modular nature, you just need to have the proper driver loaded (SY.DVD, DK.DVD) to handle disk I/O as required by your hardware. Obviously CP/M does the same thing, though slightly less elegantly, through BIOS customization (automated with the CONFIGUR program). The only HDOS programs that I know of that are hard-coded to the disk hardware are the INITxx commands that Dwight mentioned and the various disk exercising programs (TEST17, TEST37, TEST47, etc.) However, if the object of the discussion is to find a way to use the H17 controller and not worry about finding hard-sectored diskettes or modifying current drives, the solution already exists in Eric Rothfus' SVD box - http://www.rothfus.com/SVD/ - which electronically emulates a hard-sectored drive with diskette. The box has an edge connector that plugs into the floppy drive cable coming off the H17 controller; it looks just like a drive with a diskette in it to the operating system. The trick part is that the SVD box is in turn connected to a Windows or Linux host which serves as an unlimited source of "virtual" hard sectored diskettes. These disk images can be edited at the file level and can be bootable; the SVD can be used standalone (one box can emulate 3 drives, though current memory capacity limits the number of disk images that can be loaded simultaneously to 2)or in series with real drives. The SVD uses the same disk image format as 2 out of the 3 Daves' emulators (.h17), and images can be easily converted back and forth between .h8d and .h17. Jack -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From peter59 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 30 20:21:42 2004 From: peter59 at sbcglobal.net (Peter) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:21:42 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Software Engineer & selling H89 In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040630083734.0211f478@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <200407010121.i611Ljre000273@gatekeeper.evocative.com> by smtp813.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 01:21:41 -0000 I can't help but throw in my solution to this. When I went back to grad school, I got an MS in Computer Engineering. This kept me in the electronics engineering arena, as well as being accepted as a computer science/programmer type guy. All this was prompted by my getting into teaching - industry did not care what degrees I had (math degree in my case), they just wanted for me to be able to do the job well (which I did). In entering teaching, I found that the degree was more important than the knowledge! Sad but true. Incidentally, I also had (still have) a Professional Engineering License from the state of California, but that did not impress most schools (except for Oregon Institute of Technology). On another topic, I have been thinking of selling my original H89 that I used to develop all the Anapro/Analytical Products hardware and software on. I found this list through a contact on e-bay where some H89 were being sold. If I should decide to part with my machine, what is the best way to find it a proper buyer? Thanks for any suggestions. Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -----Original Message----- > I have always found the term "Software Engineer" amusing. > Last time I > checked here in Washington (the state), you could not call yourself a > "Software Engineer." Why? Because before you could use the title > "Engineer" you had to pass a state test for certification. > > I'm a programmer. My code speaks for itself. > > ..walt -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From lifo at pacbell.net Wed Jun 30 21:25:22 2004 From: lifo at pacbell.net (Erik S. Klein) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:25:22 -0700 Subject: [sebhc] Software Engineer & selling H89 In-Reply-To: <200407010121.i611Ljre000273@gatekeeper.evocative.com> Message-ID: <000101c45f12$a990ddb0$6e7ba8c0@p933> With regards to selling your H89: If you're looking for top dollar then eBay or the Vintage Computer Marketplace (marketplace.vintage.org) are your best bets for auctions or fixed-price sales. If you are looking to find another hobbyist that would provide a good home (but who might pay less then at auction) then this list, the classic computer list (www.classiccmp.org) or my Vintage Computer Forums (www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum) would also be an option. Best of luck! Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forums -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Peter Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 6:22 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: [sebhc] Software Engineer & selling H89 I can't help but throw in my solution to this. When I went back to grad school, I got an MS in Computer Engineering. This kept me in the electronics engineering arena, as well as being accepted as a computer science/programmer type guy. All this was prompted by my getting into teaching - industry did not care what degrees I had (math degree in my case), they just wanted for me to be able to do the job well (which I did). In entering teaching, I found that the degree was more important than the knowledge! Sad but true. Incidentally, I also had (still have) a Professional Engineering License from the state of California, but that did not impress most schools (except for Oregon Institute of Technology). On another topic, I have been thinking of selling my original H89 that I used to develop all the Anapro/Analytical Products hardware and software on. I found this list through a contact on e-bay where some H89 were being sold. If I should decide to part with my machine, what is the best way to find it a proper buyer? Thanks for any suggestions. Peter ----------------------------------------------------------- peter59 at sbcglobal.net - http://www.geocities.com/anapro.geo/ > -----Original Message----- > I have always found the term "Software Engineer" amusing. > Last time I > checked here in Washington (the state), you could not call yourself a > "Software Engineer." Why? Because before you could use the title > "Engineer" you had to pass a state test for certification. > > I'm a programmer. My code speaks for itself. > > ..walt -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List