From rogbirk at wiktel.com Tue Feb 1 05:51:03 2005 From: rogbirk at wiktel.com (Roger Birkholz) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 05:51:03 -0600 Subject: [sebhc] Heath Hardsector disks References: <200502010144.j111idlw002025@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <000c01c50854$60121500$0100a8c0@mshome.net> I recall an article (possibly Sextant about 1985) about a hardware mod to the heath drives allowing them to read soft sectored media. I'm kinda rusty on this but it seems the heath disks had 10 holes, 9 equally spaced and one of which was half spaced between. The hardware generated the pseudo holes by some sort of multi-vibrator timed off the single hole. Does that ring a bell with anyone? Roger B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Watzman" To: Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:44 PM Subject: RE: [sebhc] Introduction and Request > The problem isn't finding the disk drives -- you can use "PC" drives -- the > problem is finding 10-sector hard sectored media. It doesn't exist. Pat > had a supply custom made, but it was relatively expensive. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Reed H. Petty > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 8:00 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] Introduction and Request > > Hi Dwight, > > At the moment I just have only the basic tape setup. I do have > an interest in adding an H17 (and possibly an H19) once I can > locate the devices. If anyone has a lead on where they might be > found I am definately interested. The machine itself shipped > today. > > I was able to locate a copy of the tape software (assembler, etc) > and lots of documentation (thanks to this list), so that is > covered. > > This is an interesting trip down memory lane. More than 25 years > have passed by since I last wrote code for an 8080 machine. Now if > I could just convince my wife that an old computer that is several > thousand times slower than hers is a "good thing", life would be > perfect! > > Reed, > > On Mon, January 31, 2005 6:06 pm, Dwight K. Elvey said: > > Hi Reed > > What I/O do you have? Do you have a disk controller > > or audio tape setup? We have a collected a number > > of programs for the H17 setup. There are method to > > transfer disk images to and from the H8 on the > > site James points too. > > Dwight > > > > > >>From: "Reed H. Petty" > >> > >>Hello Heathkit H8 People, > >> > >>This is my first post to this list, so if I violate some protocol please > >>gently set me straight so that I can avoid future errors. > >> > >>By way of introduction, long ago (late 70s) I assembled two H8's and an > >>H89. This was my first introduction to computing which led to a career as > >>a programmer. While my interests are all over the board (amateur radio > >>WI3C, IFR pilot, linux kernel developer, etc, etc), the H8 remains close > >>to my heart. > >> > >>I have purchased an H8 that appears to be in working order, albeit > >> without > >>documentation. If there is anyone out there who can point me in the > >>direction of the technical manuals (or additional H8 related hardware), I > >>would be very grateful. I don't know if duplication of manuals is an > >>option, but if it is I would be willing to pay for the duplication. > >> > >>Thanks, > >>Reed Petty > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Feb 1 06:33:24 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 07:33:24 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Heath Hardsector disks Message-ID: <20050201123323.SOTW5392.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >I recall an article (possibly Sextant about 1985) about a hardware mod to >the heath drives allowing them to read soft sectored media. I'm kinda rusty >on this but it seems the heath disks had 10 holes, 9 equally spaced and one >of which was half spaced between. The hardware generated the pseudo holes by >some sort of multi-vibrator timed off the single hole. Does that ring a bell >with anyone? Roger B. I've thought about building a little micro (PIC or AVRish) to do this. The only problem I see is that you cannot begin inserting the hard-sector pulses until slightly more than one revolution of the disk - at least on the very first access after power-on - once you have achieved the first calibration, you can remember the timing for subsequent accesses, however you still can't insert the hard sectors until the index pulse comes along. The reasons I think it's worth using a tiny micro are that it would be very easy to do these things: - Have a guard time so that if the initial index pulse comes too soon after motor-on, you can ignore it and wait for the next one - this insures that the drive is up to speed before you begin timing/inserting pulses. - "Remember" the timing for up to four drives, so that after the first calibration (power on), you can begin inserting hard-sector pulses as soon as you see the index pulse (subject to above guard time of course). - Constantly check and adjust the insertion time based on the total track time on a per-drive basis - this should make the unit very accurate, which I believe will be required for reliable operation. - Auto-detect soft/hard sectored disks, so that either one can be used without any special concern by the operator. It shouldn't be too hard to build a very small board which goes between the controller and the drive cables and can handle all of the drives (with a single board). Unfortunately I still haven't found an H17 - however if I ever do, I will most likely design and build such an adapter ... Anyone got an H17 to spare? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 1 07:31:40 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:31:40 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Heath Hardsector disks In-Reply-To: <000c01c50854$60121500$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <200502011331.j11DVUJm019226@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> What you describe is certainly possible, I don't recall having seen it done. Actually, the discs have 11 holes, 10 equally spaced and one in between (not sure it's exactly halfway, it might be). -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Roger Birkholz Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 6:51 AM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] Heath Hardsector disks I recall an article (possibly Sextant about 1985) about a hardware mod to the heath drives allowing them to read soft sectored media. I'm kinda rusty on this but it seems the heath disks had 10 holes, 9 equally spaced and one of which was half spaced between. The hardware generated the pseudo holes by some sort of multi-vibrator timed off the single hole. Does that ring a bell with anyone? Roger B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Watzman" To: Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:44 PM Subject: RE: [sebhc] Introduction and Request > The problem isn't finding the disk drives -- you can use "PC" drives -- the > problem is finding 10-sector hard sectored media. It doesn't exist. Pat > had a supply custom made, but it was relatively expensive. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Reed H. Petty > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 8:00 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] Introduction and Request > > Hi Dwight, > > At the moment I just have only the basic tape setup. I do have > an interest in adding an H17 (and possibly an H19) once I can > locate the devices. If anyone has a lead on where they might be > found I am definately interested. The machine itself shipped > today. > > I was able to locate a copy of the tape software (assembler, etc) > and lots of documentation (thanks to this list), so that is > covered. > > This is an interesting trip down memory lane. More than 25 years > have passed by since I last wrote code for an 8080 machine. Now if > I could just convince my wife that an old computer that is several > thousand times slower than hers is a "good thing", life would be > perfect! > > Reed, > > On Mon, January 31, 2005 6:06 pm, Dwight K. Elvey said: > > Hi Reed > > What I/O do you have? Do you have a disk controller > > or audio tape setup? We have a collected a number > > of programs for the H17 setup. There are method to > > transfer disk images to and from the H8 on the > > site James points too. > > Dwight > > > > > >>From: "Reed H. Petty" > >> > >>Hello Heathkit H8 People, > >> > >>This is my first post to this list, so if I violate some protocol please > >>gently set me straight so that I can avoid future errors. > >> > >>By way of introduction, long ago (late 70s) I assembled two H8's and an > >>H89. This was my first introduction to computing which led to a career as > >>a programmer. While my interests are all over the board (amateur radio > >>WI3C, IFR pilot, linux kernel developer, etc, etc), the H8 remains close > >>to my heart. > >> > >>I have purchased an H8 that appears to be in working order, albeit > >> without > >>documentation. If there is anyone out there who can point me in the > >>direction of the technical manuals (or additional H8 related hardware), I > >>would be very grateful. I don't know if duplication of manuals is an > >>option, but if it is I would be willing to pay for the duplication. > >> > >>Thanks, > >>Reed Petty > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From kguenther6 at insightbb.com Tue Feb 1 08:20:16 2005 From: kguenther6 at insightbb.com (Ken Guenther) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:20:16 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Introduction and Request References: <200502010144.j111idlw002025@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <01f001c50869$4b394580$c901a8c0@p4253> I just bought 10 sector diskettes a couple of weeks ago from http://www.athana.com/ for $25 per box of 10. Not exactly cheap but still affordable. Ken Guenther web site: http://kguenther6.home.insightbb.com Old programmers never die... They just "GOTO" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Watzman" To: Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 8:44 PM Subject: RE: [sebhc] Introduction and Request > The problem isn't finding the disk drives -- you can use "PC" drives -- > the > problem is finding 10-sector hard sectored media. It doesn't exist. Pat > had a supply custom made, but it was relatively expensive. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Reed H. Petty > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 8:00 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] Introduction and Request > > Hi Dwight, > > At the moment I just have only the basic tape setup. I do have > an interest in adding an H17 (and possibly an H19) once I can > locate the devices. If anyone has a lead on where they might be > found I am definately interested. The machine itself shipped > today. > > I was able to locate a copy of the tape software (assembler, etc) > and lots of documentation (thanks to this list), so that is > covered. > > This is an interesting trip down memory lane. More than 25 years > have passed by since I last wrote code for an 8080 machine. Now if > I could just convince my wife that an old computer that is several > thousand times slower than hers is a "good thing", life would be > perfect! > > Reed, > > On Mon, January 31, 2005 6:06 pm, Dwight K. Elvey said: >> Hi Reed >> What I/O do you have? Do you have a disk controller >> or audio tape setup? We have a collected a number >> of programs for the H17 setup. There are method to >> transfer disk images to and from the H8 on the >> site James points too. >> Dwight >> >> >>>From: "Reed H. Petty" >>> >>>Hello Heathkit H8 People, >>> >>>This is my first post to this list, so if I violate some protocol please >>>gently set me straight so that I can avoid future errors. >>> >>>By way of introduction, long ago (late 70s) I assembled two H8's and an >>>H89. This was my first introduction to computing which led to a career as >>>a programmer. While my interests are all over the board (amateur radio >>>WI3C, IFR pilot, linux kernel developer, etc, etc), the H8 remains close >>>to my heart. >>> >>>I have purchased an H8 that appears to be in working order, albeit >>> without >>>documentation. If there is anyone out there who can point me in the >>>direction of the technical manuals (or additional H8 related hardware), I >>>would be very grateful. I don't know if duplication of manuals is an >>>option, but if it is I would be willing to pay for the duplication. >>> >>>Thanks, >>>Reed Petty >> > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 1 08:32:47 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:32:47 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Introduction and Request In-Reply-To: <01f001c50869$4b394580$c901a8c0@p4253> Message-ID: <200502011432.j11EWbHI002709@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> We all have our own standards, but I consider anything over $1 per disc unacceptably high. -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Ken Guenther Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:20 AM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] Introduction and Request I just bought 10 sector diskettes a couple of weeks ago from http://www.athana.com/ for $25 per box of 10. Not exactly cheap but still affordable. Ken Guenther web site: http://kguenther6.home.insightbb.com Old programmers never die... They just "GOTO" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Watzman" To: Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 8:44 PM Subject: RE: [sebhc] Introduction and Request > The problem isn't finding the disk drives -- you can use "PC" drives -- > the > problem is finding 10-sector hard sectored media. It doesn't exist. Pat > had a supply custom made, but it was relatively expensive. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Reed H. Petty > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 8:00 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] Introduction and Request > > Hi Dwight, > > At the moment I just have only the basic tape setup. I do have > an interest in adding an H17 (and possibly an H19) once I can > locate the devices. If anyone has a lead on where they might be > found I am definately interested. The machine itself shipped > today. > > I was able to locate a copy of the tape software (assembler, etc) > and lots of documentation (thanks to this list), so that is > covered. > > This is an interesting trip down memory lane. More than 25 years > have passed by since I last wrote code for an 8080 machine. Now if > I could just convince my wife that an old computer that is several > thousand times slower than hers is a "good thing", life would be > perfect! > > Reed, > > On Mon, January 31, 2005 6:06 pm, Dwight K. Elvey said: >> Hi Reed >> What I/O do you have? Do you have a disk controller >> or audio tape setup? We have a collected a number >> of programs for the H17 setup. There are method to >> transfer disk images to and from the H8 on the >> site James points too. >> Dwight >> >> >>>From: "Reed H. Petty" >>> >>>Hello Heathkit H8 People, >>> >>>This is my first post to this list, so if I violate some protocol please >>>gently set me straight so that I can avoid future errors. >>> >>>By way of introduction, long ago (late 70s) I assembled two H8's and an >>>H89. This was my first introduction to computing which led to a career as >>>a programmer. While my interests are all over the board (amateur radio >>>WI3C, IFR pilot, linux kernel developer, etc, etc), the H8 remains close >>>to my heart. >>> >>>I have purchased an H8 that appears to be in working order, albeit >>> without >>>documentation. If there is anyone out there who can point me in the >>>direction of the technical manuals (or additional H8 related hardware), I >>>would be very grateful. I don't know if duplication of manuals is an >>>option, but if it is I would be willing to pay for the duplication. >>> >>>Thanks, >>>Reed Petty >> > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 1 10:24:04 2005 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 16:24:04 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] Floppies, archives, and ROMs In-Reply-To: <200502011331.j11DVUJm019226@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 16:24:04 GMT Barry wrote: >Actually, the discs have 11 holes, 10 equally spaced and one in between >(not >sure it's exactly halfway, it might be). Yes, the index hole is midway between to sector holes. Dave wrote (regarding simulating hard-sector pulses with soft-sector diskettes): > - "Remember" the timing for up to four drives, so that after the first > calibration (power on), you can begin inserting hard-sector pulses as >soon > as you see the index pulse (subject to above guard time of course). The internal drag of a particular floppy might alter the speed slightly, so it might be better to compute the timing from scratch after any insertion. Also remember that insertions can occur while the motor is engaged (even if rude!). :-) Bob Brown wrote: >I get a request for username/password when I go to this link. As previously mentioned, login as user "heathkit", password "hdos8bit" (no quotes). Jack - can this be added to the list manager's welcome message for new subscribers? And I found a bit more history of the H8 monitor, here's what I have so far: 01 Mar 76 PAM/8 J. G. Letwin (444-13) 25 Aug 79 PAM8GO JWTittsler (one-button boot) (*) 31 Dec 79 PAM8AT JWTittsler (automatic boot) (Part No?) 04 Mar 80 PAM8GO JWTittsler (changed default display to PC) (444-60) 20 Jun 80 RAM8GO JWTittsler (RAM at zero capability) (*) 07 Aug 80 XCON-8 G. Chandler (H17/H47 boot) (444-70) 15 Apr 81 Pam8/RP S. Parker (Heath Employee's Amateur Repeater) (*) 23 May 83 Pam-37 S. Parker (A.K.A. Pam-80, HD boot) (444-140) (*) = never assigned a part number or publicly released There may still be some omissions or inaccuracies. For one thing, I still haven't found out what a 444-124 is. Cheers, - Steven -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Feb 1 12:10:17 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:10:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sebhc] Floppies, archives, and ROMs Message-ID: <200502011810.KAA17037@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Steven Parker" > >Barry wrote: >>Actually, the discs have 11 holes, 10 equally spaced and one in between >>(not >>sure it's exactly halfway, it might be). > >Yes, the index hole is midway between to sector holes. > >Dave wrote (regarding simulating hard-sector pulses with soft-sector >diskettes): Hi I think Dave's idea is great. I've considered doing it myself but just never got around to it. What I did do was to make a punch to make my own hard sectored disk. I used an old SA400 frame that I had laying around ( it had no electronics ). I mounted a couple of aluminum blocks that I milled on my small lathe. I used the same locations as the sector sensor. I used a drill bit ( I think it was a #38 or #39 ) as the punch by carefully sharpening the end. I put some small holes on the fly wheel to use as detents to locate where to place the holes. I've not finished the mechanical detents but use a pointer that I hot glued on. It is slow to create the disk and if I look at my time consumed by punching and testing, they are not exactly a bargain. Still, it is hobby time and I enjoy fiddling. I have a big box of 360K disk that have no other purpose than to become hard sectored. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Feb 1 12:34:06 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:34:06 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Floppies, archives, and ROMs Message-ID: <20050201183404.ZEYY5392.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Dave wrote (regarding simulating hard-sector pulses with soft-sector >diskettes): >> - "Remember" the timing for up to four drives, so that after the first >> calibration (power on), you can begin inserting hard-sector pulses as >>soon >> as you see the index pulse (subject to above guard time of course). > >The internal drag of a particular floppy might alter the speed slightly, so >it might be better to compute the timing from scratch after any insertion. >Also remember that insertions can occur while the motor is engaged (even if >rude!). :-) Unfortunately you can't reliably detect insertions without modifying the drive (if you are willing to add a lead to *always* watch the write product signal of all drives, then you could detect when a diskette has been inserted). As to drag slowing the disk down ... I avoid using disks which have a high drag, and have not seen much effect with "normal" disks - Unless you modify the drive to perform insertion detection as noted above, you would have to always waste the extra revolution every time the drive motors are turned on (note, you are already wasting up to one revolution while waiting for the index pulse). I have no idea if the software will tolerate this long a time before index pulses appear or not. Also, since I would update the timing on every detection of the index hole, this would only be a concern if: - A disk has just been inserted (no previous accesses) - A write is occuring on the first access (read error would just retry) - The disk has enough drag to noticably slow the drive motor. I think that once you have "calibrated", it would be safe to begin sending the fake index pulses once you have determined that the drive is up to speed and have seen one index hole - but another big benefit of a microcontroller based implementation is that you could easily make waiting for two index pulses an option. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From garlangr at verizon.net Tue Feb 1 21:54:08 2005 From: garlangr at verizon.net (Mark Garlanger) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:54:08 -0600 Subject: [sebhc] Introduction and Request In-Reply-To: <01f001c50869$4b394580$c901a8c0@p4253> Message-ID: <20050202035407.HODK11919.out007.verizon.net@BUSTER> Hi Ken, Did you have to email them for information on the hard-sectored disks? I didn't see any listed on their site. Was it $25 including shipping? $2.50 is a lot for 100k of storage, but I may have to break down and get 10 or 20 to last me until/if my soft-sectored controller is built, tested, and shipped to me ;-) Mark -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Ken Guenther Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 8:20 AM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] Introduction and Request I just bought 10 sector diskettes a couple of weeks ago from http://www.athana.com/ for $25 per box of 10. Not exactly cheap but still affordable. Ken Guenther web site: http://kguenther6.home.insightbb.com Old programmers never die... They just "GOTO" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Watzman" To: Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 8:44 PM Subject: RE: [sebhc] Introduction and Request > The problem isn't finding the disk drives -- you can use "PC" drives -- > the > problem is finding 10-sector hard sectored media. It doesn't exist. Pat > had a supply custom made, but it was relatively expensive. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Reed H. Petty > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 8:00 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] Introduction and Request > > Hi Dwight, > > At the moment I just have only the basic tape setup. I do have > an interest in adding an H17 (and possibly an H19) once I can > locate the devices. If anyone has a lead on where they might be > found I am definately interested. The machine itself shipped > today. > > I was able to locate a copy of the tape software (assembler, etc) > and lots of documentation (thanks to this list), so that is > covered. > > This is an interesting trip down memory lane. More than 25 years > have passed by since I last wrote code for an 8080 machine. Now if > I could just convince my wife that an old computer that is several > thousand times slower than hers is a "good thing", life would be > perfect! > > Reed, > > On Mon, January 31, 2005 6:06 pm, Dwight K. Elvey said: >> Hi Reed >> What I/O do you have? Do you have a disk controller >> or audio tape setup? We have a collected a number >> of programs for the H17 setup. There are method to >> transfer disk images to and from the H8 on the >> site James points too. >> Dwight >> >> >>>From: "Reed H. Petty" >>> >>>Hello Heathkit H8 People, >>> >>>This is my first post to this list, so if I violate some protocol please >>>gently set me straight so that I can avoid future errors. >>> >>>By way of introduction, long ago (late 70s) I assembled two H8's and an >>>H89. This was my first introduction to computing which led to a career as >>>a programmer. While my interests are all over the board (amateur radio >>>WI3C, IFR pilot, linux kernel developer, etc, etc), the H8 remains close >>>to my heart. >>> >>>I have purchased an H8 that appears to be in working order, albeit >>> without >>>documentation. If there is anyone out there who can point me in the >>>direction of the technical manuals (or additional H8 related hardware), I >>>would be very grateful. I don't know if duplication of manuals is an >>>option, but if it is I would be willing to pay for the duplication. >>> >>>Thanks, >>>Reed Petty >> > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From kguenther6 at insightbb.com Wed Feb 2 08:17:18 2005 From: kguenther6 at insightbb.com (Ken Guenther) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:17:18 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Introduction and Request References: <20050202035407.HODK11919.out007.verizon.net@BUSTER> Message-ID: <010301c50931$e735aff0$c901a8c0@p4253> Mark, I clicked on the link requesting more information and I got an email from warnold at athana.com who quoted $25/box of 10. There was a shipping charge also but I don't remember how much that was. I agree that its expensive but I only needed 1 box and this was the only place I could find that offered them. So I was able to come up with the $25. I also bought the SAD from http://www.rothfus.com/SVD/ and have been using that. It has worked great so far so and that kept me from needing a lot of diskettes. The only problem I've had so far with the SAD is that if I boot off a HDOS 2.0 diskette that I had originally, I can't mount the SAD. But I can mount any floppies made from the SAD. I am able to boot off HDOS 2.0 floppies made form the SAD and mount my other HDOS floppies. And I can boot off the SVD and mount them. I'm new to the H8 so I still haven't been able to figure out why it works like that. My uncle built this H8 in the early 80's and was going to throw it out. I collect all kinds of old computers and when I found out he was going to throw it out, I saved it. It didn't work when I got it but at the end of last year I finally got everything working. I've had a great time playing with it so far and SEBHC has been a great resource for software and documentation. Ken Guenther web site: http://kguenther6.home.insightbb.com Old programmers never die... They just "GOTO" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Garlanger" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 10:54 PM Subject: RE: [sebhc] Introduction and Request > Hi Ken, > > Did you have to email them for information on the hard-sectored disks? I > didn't see any listed on their site. Was it $25 including shipping? $2.50 > is > a lot for 100k of storage, but I may have to break down and get 10 or 20 > to > last me until/if my soft-sectored controller is built, tested, and shipped > to me ;-) > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Ken Guenther > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 8:20 AM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] Introduction and Request > > I just bought 10 sector diskettes a couple of weeks ago from > http://www.athana.com/ for $25 per box of 10. Not exactly cheap but still > affordable. > > > Ken Guenther > > web site: http://kguenther6.home.insightbb.com > Old programmers never die... They just "GOTO" > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Barry Watzman" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 8:44 PM > Subject: RE: [sebhc] Introduction and Request > > >> The problem isn't finding the disk drives -- you can use "PC" drives -- >> the >> problem is finding 10-sector hard sectored media. It doesn't exist. Pat >> had a supply custom made, but it was relatively expensive. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Reed H. Petty >> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 8:00 PM >> To: sebhc at sebhc.org >> Subject: Re: [sebhc] Introduction and Request >> >> Hi Dwight, >> >> At the moment I just have only the basic tape setup. I do have >> an interest in adding an H17 (and possibly an H19) once I can >> locate the devices. If anyone has a lead on where they might be >> found I am definately interested. The machine itself shipped >> today. >> >> I was able to locate a copy of the tape software (assembler, etc) >> and lots of documentation (thanks to this list), so that is >> covered. >> >> This is an interesting trip down memory lane. More than 25 years >> have passed by since I last wrote code for an 8080 machine. Now if >> I could just convince my wife that an old computer that is several >> thousand times slower than hers is a "good thing", life would be >> perfect! >> >> Reed, >> >> On Mon, January 31, 2005 6:06 pm, Dwight K. Elvey said: >>> Hi Reed >>> What I/O do you have? Do you have a disk controller >>> or audio tape setup? We have a collected a number >>> of programs for the H17 setup. There are method to >>> transfer disk images to and from the H8 on the >>> site James points too. >>> Dwight >>> >>> >>>>From: "Reed H. Petty" >>>> >>>>Hello Heathkit H8 People, >>>> >>>>This is my first post to this list, so if I violate some protocol please >>>>gently set me straight so that I can avoid future errors. >>>> >>>>By way of introduction, long ago (late 70s) I assembled two H8's and an >>>>H89. This was my first introduction to computing which led to a career >>>>as >>>>a programmer. While my interests are all over the board (amateur radio >>>>WI3C, IFR pilot, linux kernel developer, etc, etc), the H8 remains close >>>>to my heart. >>>> >>>>I have purchased an H8 that appears to be in working order, albeit >>>> without >>>>documentation. If there is anyone out there who can point me in the >>>>direction of the technical manuals (or additional H8 related hardware), >>>>I >>>>would be very grateful. I don't know if duplication of manuals is an >>>>option, but if it is I would be willing to pay for the duplication. >>>> >>>>Thanks, >>>>Reed Petty >>> >> -- >> Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List >> >> >> -- >> Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Wed Feb 2 09:44:00 2005 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 07:44:00 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] Introduction and Request In-Reply-To: <010301c50931$e735aff0$c901a8c0@p4253> Message-ID: <000b01c5093e$03fa6110$61218543@berkeley.evocative.com> I buy them in bulk and resell them to folks on the list at cost (plus shipping to you). Based on my last purchase, I can currently offer them for $1.85 each. I have both hard and soft-sector diskettes. Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Ken Guenther > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 6:17 AM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] Introduction and Request > > > Mark, > > I clicked on the link requesting more information and I got > an email from > warnold at athana.com who quoted $25/box of 10. There was a > shipping charge > also but I don't remember how much that was. > > I agree that its expensive but I only needed 1 box and this > was the only > place I could find that offered them. So I was able to come > up with the > $25. I also bought the SAD from http://www.rothfus.com/SVD/ > and have been > using that. It has worked great so far so and that kept me > from needing a > lot of diskettes. The only problem I've had so far with the > SAD is that if > I boot off a HDOS 2.0 diskette that I had originally, I can't > mount the SAD. > But I can mount any floppies made from the SAD. I am able to > boot off HDOS > 2.0 floppies made form the SAD and mount my other HDOS > floppies. And I can > boot off the SVD and mount them. I'm new to the H8 so I > still haven't been > able to figure out why it works like that. > > My uncle built this H8 in the early 80's and was going to > throw it out. I > collect all kinds of old computers and when I found out he > was going to > throw it out, I saved it. It didn't work when I got it but > at the end of > last year I finally got everything working. I've had a great > time playing > with it so far and SEBHC has been a great resource for software and > documentation. > > Ken Guenther > > web site: http://kguenther6.home.insightbb.com > Old programmers never die... They just "GOTO" > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Garlanger" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 10:54 PM > Subject: RE: [sebhc] Introduction and Request > > > > Hi Ken, > > > > Did you have to email them for information on the > hard-sectored disks? I > > didn't see any listed on their site. Was it $25 including > shipping? $2.50 > > is > > a lot for 100k of storage, but I may have to break down and > get 10 or 20 > > to > > last me until/if my soft-sectored controller is built, > tested, and shipped > > to me ;-) > > > > Mark > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Ken Guenther > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 8:20 AM > > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > > Subject: Re: [sebhc] Introduction and Request > > > > I just bought 10 sector diskettes a couple of weeks ago from > > http://www.athana.com/ for $25 per box of 10. Not exactly > cheap but still > > affordable. > > > > > > Ken Guenther > > > > web site: http://kguenther6.home.insightbb.com > > Old programmers never die... They just "GOTO" > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Barry Watzman" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 8:44 PM > > Subject: RE: [sebhc] Introduction and Request > > > > > >> The problem isn't finding the disk drives -- you can use > "PC" drives -- > >> the > >> problem is finding 10-sector hard sectored media. It > doesn't exist. Pat > >> had a supply custom made, but it was relatively expensive. > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf > Of Reed H. Petty > >> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 8:00 PM > >> To: sebhc at sebhc.org > >> Subject: Re: [sebhc] Introduction and Request > >> > >> Hi Dwight, > >> > >> At the moment I just have only the basic tape setup. I do have > >> an interest in adding an H17 (and possibly an H19) once I can > >> locate the devices. If anyone has a lead on where they might be > >> found I am definately interested. The machine itself shipped > >> today. > >> > >> I was able to locate a copy of the tape software (assembler, etc) > >> and lots of documentation (thanks to this list), so that is > >> covered. > >> > >> This is an interesting trip down memory lane. More than 25 years > >> have passed by since I last wrote code for an 8080 machine. Now if > >> I could just convince my wife that an old computer that is several > >> thousand times slower than hers is a "good thing", life would be > >> perfect! > >> > >> Reed, > >> > >> On Mon, January 31, 2005 6:06 pm, Dwight K. Elvey said: > >>> Hi Reed > >>> What I/O do you have? Do you have a disk controller > >>> or audio tape setup? We have a collected a number > >>> of programs for the H17 setup. There are method to > >>> transfer disk images to and from the H8 on the > >>> site James points too. > >>> Dwight > >>> > >>> > >>>>From: "Reed H. Petty" > >>>> > >>>>Hello Heathkit H8 People, > >>>> > >>>>This is my first post to this list, so if I violate some > protocol please > >>>>gently set me straight so that I can avoid future errors. > >>>> > >>>>By way of introduction, long ago (late 70s) I assembled > two H8's and an > >>>>H89. This was my first introduction to computing which > led to a career > >>>>as > >>>>a programmer. While my interests are all over the board > (amateur radio > >>>>WI3C, IFR pilot, linux kernel developer, etc, etc), the > H8 remains close > >>>>to my heart. > >>>> > >>>>I have purchased an H8 that appears to be in working order, albeit > >>>> without > >>>>documentation. If there is anyone out there who can > point me in the > >>>>direction of the technical manuals (or additional H8 > related hardware), > >>>>I > >>>>would be very grateful. I don't know if duplication of > manuals is an > >>>>option, but if it is I would be willing to pay for the > duplication. > >>>> > >>>>Thanks, > >>>>Reed Petty > >>> > >> -- > >> Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > > -- > > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > > -- > > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com Wed Feb 2 10:26:06 2005 From: RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com (West, Ronald S.) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 11:26:06 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Floppies, archives, and ROMs Message-ID: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEAA15C@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Can't the problem of detecting a new disk be solved by limiting the range of the uController generating the "holes?" If the index holes get more than +/-10 to 15% away from the 300RPM spec then the controller quits generating holes. This way if the operator removes a disk (however rude or not) then the system will start generating holes when the new disk gets close to 300RPM. I also thought about doing this but never had the time. Have been working on an IDE board for about a year now too but work, home & college classes have kept me from continuing. I guess its the same for everyone. Fun stuff allways seems to come last. Ron > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Dave Dunfield > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:34 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] Floppies, archives, and ROMs > > > > >Dave wrote (regarding simulating hard-sector pulses with soft-sector > >diskettes): > >> - "Remember" the timing for up to four drives, so that > after the first > >> calibration (power on), you can begin inserting > hard-sector pulses > >>as > >>soon > >> as you see the index pulse (subject to above guard time > of course). > > > >The internal drag of a particular floppy might alter the speed > >slightly, so > >it might be better to compute the timing from scratch after > any insertion. > >Also remember that insertions can occur while the motor is > engaged (even if > >rude!). :-) > > Unfortunately you can't reliably detect insertions without > modifying the drive (if you are willing to add a lead to > *always* watch the write product signal of all drives, then > you could detect when a diskette has been inserted). > > As to drag slowing the disk down ... I avoid using disks > which have a high drag, and have not seen much effect with > "normal" disks - Unless you modify the drive to perform > insertion detection as noted above, you would have to always > waste the extra revolution every time the drive motors are > turned on (note, you are already wasting up to one revolution > while waiting for the index pulse). I have no idea if the > software will tolerate this long a time before index pulses > appear or not. > > Also, since I would update the timing on every detection of > the index hole, this would only be a concern if: > - A disk has just been inserted (no previous accesses) > - A write is occuring on the first access (read error would > just retry) > - The disk has enough drag to noticably slow the drive motor. > > I think that once you have "calibrated", it would be safe to > begin sending the fake index pulses once you have determined > that the drive is up to speed and have seen one index hole - > but another big benefit of a microcontroller based > implementation is that you could easily make waiting for two > index pulses an option. > > Regards, > Dave > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Feb 2 10:46:08 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 11:46:08 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Floppies, archives, and ROMs Message-ID: <20050202164607.TQEP5392.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 11:26 02/02/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Can't the problem of detecting a new disk be solved by limiting the range of >the uController generating the "holes?" If the index holes get more than >+/-10 to 15% away from the 300RPM spec then the controller quits generating >holes. > >This way if the operator removes a disk (however rude or not) then the >system will start generating holes when the new disk gets close to 300RPM. I >also thought about doing this but never had the time. Have been working on >an IDE board for about a year now too but work, home & college classes have >kept me from continuing. I guess its the same for everyone. Fun stuff >allways seems to come last. I'm not worried about what happen if you remove a disk while it is being accessed - I don't do that, and I think it's entirely reasonable that removing the disk while it is being accessed with this adapter present could cause a disk error, given that removing the disk while it is being accessed WITHOUT this adapter present is also very likelt to cause a disk error. Putting the disk in with the drive running is likely to come up to speed faster than it it is inserted when the drive has to start from completely stopped. Obviously the controller should stop generating holes if it sees a really long index pulse (ie: no diskette at all in the drive while selected). Once it seen a normal index pulse again it can resume. The original question was regarding what would happen if you removed a disk (while the drive was idle) and replaced it with a disk that had more "drag", thus slowing the drive ... My suggestion to remember the drive timing after the first calibration as long as power is on could cause the holes to be too fast, if a subsequent disk drags down the motor. This event could not be detected by monitoring the index pulse, because the drive is not selected during idle, so the index pulse is not available to the controller. (Since the drive motor is servo controlled, a disk that drags enough to slow it is going be a problem with or without this controller - I have a habit of watching the strobe disk of drives on the bench when they are active, and I have not seen drive speed variations with disks, except in extream cases where the disk was obviously defective] Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com Wed Feb 2 11:45:33 2005 From: RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com (West, Ronald S.) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:45:33 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Floppies, archives, and ROMs Message-ID: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEAA15D@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> > The original question was regarding what would happen if you > removed a disk (while the drive was idle) and replaced it > with a disk that had more "drag", thus slowing the drive ... > My suggestion to remember the drive timing after the first > calibration as long as power is on could cause the holes to > be too fast, if a subsequent disk drags down the motor. This > event could not be detected by monitoring the index pulse, > because the drive is not selected during idle, so the index > pulse is not available to the controller. I wouldn't recommend remembering timing rates. The controller's timing should be dynamic and generate each set of holes based on the dt between the previous index holes (after the +/-15% test is satisfied). If the next set are a bit different the controller generates a slightly different timing for them. This is obviously not the best situation. It would be better if we could get the real time rotational speed of the spindle, but that isn't available. We might be able to derrive it from the raw data coming off of the heads, but that would involve more drastic modifications to the drive in question. What we are talking about here could be in-line on the back of the drive, placed on the controller card, or even on the drive electronics. ...lots of flexibility. Ron > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Dave Dunfield > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 11:46 AM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: RE: [sebhc] Floppies, archives, and ROMs > > > At 11:26 02/02/2005 -0500, you wrote: > >Can't the problem of detecting a new disk be solved by limiting the > >range of the uController generating the "holes?" If the > index holes get > >more than > >+/-10 to 15% away from the 300RPM spec then the controller quits > >+generating > >holes. > > > >This way if the operator removes a disk (however rude or > not) then the > >system will start generating holes when the new disk gets close to > >300RPM. I also thought about doing this but never had the time. Have > >been working on an IDE board for about a year now too but > work, home & > >college classes have kept me from continuing. I guess its > the same for > >everyone. Fun stuff allways seems to come last. > > I'm not worried about what happen if you remove a disk while > it is being accessed - I don't do that, and I think it's > entirely reasonable that removing the disk while it is being > accessed with this adapter present could cause a disk error, > given that removing the disk while it is being accessed > WITHOUT this adapter present is also very likelt to cause a > disk error. > > Putting the disk in with the drive running is likely to come > up to speed faster than it it is inserted when the drive has > to start from completely stopped. Obviously the controller > should stop generating holes if it sees a really long index > pulse (ie: no diskette at all in the drive while selected). > Once it seen a normal index pulse again it can resume. > > The original question was regarding what would happen if you > removed a disk (while the drive was idle) and replaced it > with a disk that had more "drag", thus slowing the drive ... > My suggestion to remember the drive timing after the first > calibration as long as power is on could cause the holes to > be too fast, if a subsequent disk drags down the motor. This > event could not be detected by monitoring the index pulse, > because the drive is not selected during idle, so the index > pulse is not available to the controller. > > (Since the drive motor is servo controlled, a disk that drags > enough to slow it is going be a problem with or without this > controller - I have a habit of watching the strobe disk of > drives on the bench when they are active, and I have not > seen drive speed variations with disks, except in extream > cases where the disk was obviously defective] > > Regards, > Dave > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Feb 2 11:57:07 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:57:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sebhc] Floppies, archives, and ROMs Message-ID: <200502021757.JAA01726@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dave Dunfield" > >At 11:26 02/02/2005 -0500, you wrote: >>Can't the problem of detecting a new disk be solved by limiting the range of >>the uController generating the "holes?" If the index holes get more than >>+/-10 to 15% away from the 300RPM spec then the controller quits generating >>holes. >> ---snip--- > >(Since the drive motor is servo controlled, a disk that drags enough to slow > it is going be a problem with or without this controller - I have a habit of > watching the strobe disk of drives on the bench when they are active, and I > have not seen drive speed variations with disks, except in extream cases > where the disk was obviously defective] > >Regards, >Dave Hi I agree with Dave. When the disk is actually working, the speed is almost right on the money. I often run my machines with the covers off and can see the strobe disk on the flywheels. With a drive that has been adjusted, I see no difference in speed caused by disk loading unless it actually causes the disk to have errors. I doubt that I've ever seen anything like a 10% error in speed. Even a 1% error would show as a significant drift on the strobe. As for disk with drag, I've found that one can grab the center and manually rotate the disk a little to get it moving smoothly again. This is especially nice to know when it contains some old info you are looking for. If you are willing to destroy the disk, you can always cut the envelope open. For handling, it is always convenient to have a smooth working envelope handy that you can slide the bare disk into. It is usually best to have the opening towards the door of the drive as the other edges are used to located the disk. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Feb 2 12:23:40 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:23:40 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Floppies, archives, and ROMs Message-ID: <20050202182339.VNLO5392.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >I wouldn't recommend remembering timing rates. The controller's timing >should be dynamic and generate each set of holes based on the dt between the >previous index holes (after the +/-15% test is satisfied). If the next set >are a bit different the controller generates a slightly different timing for >them. This is obviously not the best situation. It would be better if we >could get the real time rotational speed of the spindle, but that isn't >available. We might be able to derrive it from the raw data coming off of >the heads, but that would involve more drastic modifications to the drive in >question. What we are talking about here could be in-line on the back of the >drive, placed on the controller card, or even on the drive electronics. >...lots of flexibility. If you read my original posting - I proposed doing exactly that, adapting the time based on the measured time of each rotation. Basically, once the motor is turned on, watch for the index pulse, if it happens within x ms (x to be determined), assume that the motors are not up to speed yet and wait for the next one. Then, time one full revolution, and divide by 10 to get the offset between each sector pulse - being "faking" these pulses at offset/2 from the next index hole. With each revolution, remeasure and adjust the time accordingly - this insures that the device will track the drive and always present a reasonably accurate sector hole timeing. The problem with this approach is that it takes at least one, and up to two revolutions before the controller begins to see index pulses. What I proposed, is that once the device has calibrated, as long as it is not powered down, you could "remember" the timeing of the previous access, and apply it after the first index pulse - it would still dynamically adjust to the drive from there on, and it would also be subject to the guard time to insure the motor is up to speed - this reduces the latency on subsequent accesses to a maximum of only one (and a bit for the guard time) revolution. Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com Wed Feb 2 12:54:31 2005 From: RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com (West, Ronald S.) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:54:31 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] Floppies, archives, and ROMs Message-ID: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEAA15E@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Sounds good to me. Would be interested in hearing results of any experimentation in this area. If time permits I will try looking into this also. Ron > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Dave Dunfield > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 1:24 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: RE: [sebhc] Floppies, archives, and ROMs > > > > >I wouldn't recommend remembering timing rates. The > controller's timing > >should be dynamic and generate each set of holes based on the dt > >between the previous index holes (after the +/-15% test is > satisfied). > >If the next set are a bit different the controller generates > a slightly > >different timing for them. This is obviously not the best > situation. It > >would be better if we could get the real time rotational > speed of the > >spindle, but that isn't available. We might be able to > derrive it from > >the raw data coming off of the heads, but that would involve more > >drastic modifications to the drive in question. What we are talking > >about here could be in-line on the back of the drive, placed on the > >controller card, or even on the drive electronics. ...lots of > >flexibility. > > If you read my original posting - I proposed doing exactly > that, adapting the time based on the measured time of each rotation. > > Basically, once the motor is turned on, watch for the index > pulse, if it happens within x ms (x to be determined), assume > that the motors are not up to speed yet and wait for the next > one. Then, time one full revolution, and divide by 10 to get > the offset between each sector pulse - being "faking" these > pulses at offset/2 from the next index hole. With each > revolution, remeasure and adjust the time accordingly - this > insures that the device will track the drive and always > present a reasonably accurate sector hole timeing. > > The problem with this approach is that it takes at least one, > and up to two revolutions before the controller begins to see > index pulses. > > What I proposed, is that once the device has calibrated, as > long as it is not powered down, you could "remember" the > timeing of the previous access, and apply it after the first > index pulse - it would still dynamically adjust to the drive > from there on, and it would also be subject to the guard time > to insure the motor is up to speed - this reduces the latency > on subsequent accesses to a maximum of only one (and a bit > for the guard > time) revolution. > > Dave > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From rhp at draper.net Wed Feb 2 13:17:57 2005 From: rhp at draper.net (Reed H. Petty) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:17:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: [sebhc] H8 has arrived, and works, woo hoo! In-Reply-To: <200501311211346.SM00107@work3> References: <200501311211346.SM00107@work3> Message-ID: <51050.66.197.171.21.1107371877.squirrel@mail.draper.net> Thanks to all on the list. I have received a warm welcome and very much appreciate the tips and links to documentation, etc. The H8 that I purchased arrived today. After some assembly work and a bit of head scratching I was able to get it to power up, the panel to respond, and the diagnostic test routine keyed in. I was elated (understatement) to see "Your H8 is up and running"! The machine is humble, with only the processor, 8k of static ram, and the serial I/O card, and a AT style power supply, but it is a beginning! Thanks again. Reed, On Mon, January 31, 2005 1:11 pm, James E Cosper said: > Welcome, > > At 11:14 AM 1/31/05 -0600, you wrote: >>By way of introduction, long ago (late 70s) I assembled two H8's and an >>H89. This was my first introduction to computing which led to a career as >>a programmer. While my interests are all over the board (amateur radio >>WI3C, IFR pilot, linux kernel developer, etc, etc), the H8 remains close >>to my heart. > > Sounds familiar, I started with a SBC Cosmac Elf system, my first 'real' > computer was a H89, later I picked up a H8... > >> >>I have purchased an H8 that appears to be in working order, albeit >> without >>documentation. If there is anyone out there who can point me in the >>direction of the technical manuals (or additional H8 related hardware), I >>would be very grateful. I don't know if duplication of manuals is an >>option, but if it is I would be willing to pay for the duplication. >> > > You can find most of the H8 manuals as PDF's here: > http://www.sebhc.org/archive/documents/hardware/H8/ > > You can use them as is or if you want paper, you can print them out. > > If you don't find what your looking for, let me know, I have some > manuals > that I will be scanning, just haven't got to it yet. > > Later, James. > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Feb 2 17:39:27 2005 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:39:27 -0600 Subject: [sebhc] H8 has arrived, and works, woo hoo! In-Reply-To: <51050.66.197.171.21.1107371877.squirrel@mail.draper.net> Message-ID: <000901c50980$718606c0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> congrats - I know the feeling! > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Reed H. Petty > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 1:18 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: [sebhc] H8 has arrived, and works, woo hoo! > > > > Thanks to all on the list. I have received a warm welcome > and very much appreciate the tips and links to documentation, etc. > > The H8 that I purchased arrived today. After some assembly > work and a bit of head scratching I was able to get it to > power up, the panel to respond, and the diagnostic test > routine keyed in. I was elated (understatement) to see "Your > H8 is up and running"! > > The machine is humble, with only the processor, 8k of static > ram, and the serial I/O card, and a AT style power supply, > but it is a beginning! > > Thanks again. > > Reed, > > On Mon, January 31, 2005 1:11 pm, James E Cosper said: > > Welcome, > > > > At 11:14 AM 1/31/05 -0600, you wrote: > >>By way of introduction, long ago (late 70s) I assembled two > H8's and > >>an H89. This was my first introduction to computing which led to a > >>career as a programmer. While my interests are all over the board > >>(amateur radio WI3C, IFR pilot, linux kernel developer, > etc, etc), the > >>H8 remains close to my heart. > > > > Sounds familiar, I started with a SBC Cosmac Elf system, my first > > 'real' computer was a H89, later I picked up a H8... > > > >> > >>I have purchased an H8 that appears to be in working order, albeit > >>without documentation. If there is anyone out there who > can point me > >>in the direction of the technical manuals (or additional H8 related > >>hardware), I would be very grateful. I don't know if > duplication of > >>manuals is an option, but if it is I would be willing to > pay for the > >>duplication. > >> > > > > You can find most of the H8 manuals as PDF's here: > > http://www.sebhc.org/archive/documents/hardware/H8/ > > > > You can use them as is or if you want paper, you can print > them out. > > > > If you don't find what your looking for, let me know, I have some > > manuals that I will be scanning, just haven't got to it yet. > > > > Later, James. > > > > > > -- > > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Fri Feb 4 00:18:14 2005 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 22:18:14 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] Heath Hardsector disks References: <20050201123323.SOTW5392.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <420313A6.6C71@earthlink.net> Dave Dunfield wrote: > > >I recall an article (possibly Sextant about 1985) about a hardware mod to > >the heath drives allowing them to read soft sectored media. I'm kinda rusty > >on this but it seems the heath disks had 10 holes, 9 equally spaced and one > >of which was half spaced between. The hardware generated the pseudo holes by > >some sort of multi-vibrator timed off the single hole. Does that ring a bell > >with anyone? Roger B. It was the reverse of this. The published circuit allowed you to use physically hard-sectored disks (with 11 holes) with the soft-sector controller (which expected 1-hole disks). The idea was that you had 100's of hard-sector disks when you bought your new soft-sector controller, and could re-use these disks. I have this circuit in my H89. It works as described. I can insert a hard-sector disk, and format it as if it were soft-sectored. OF course, the drawback is that this disk is a "freak" that can't be read on any other computer unless it also has this hardware mod. Physically, the mod is a dual one-shot and a gate. Each pulse from the index sensor triggers the first one-shot. Its timing is chosen to time out before the next sector hole. But when the true index hole comes along (between two sector holes), the one-shot is still on. The occurrence of a hole when this one-shot is already on triggers the second one-shot. This one creates the fake "index" pulse for the disk controller. I also have the software installed from a second article; that connects *both* the Heath hard-sector and soft-sector controllers to the same disk drives. The same physical drives thus have two names; A: B: C: if you insert a soft-sector disk, and D: E: F: if you insert a hard-sector disk. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 4 12:09:39 2005 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 18:09:39 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] Soft/hard sector disks In-Reply-To: <420313A6.6C71@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 18:09:39 GMT Lee Wrote: >It was the reverse of this. The published circuit allowed you to use >physically hard-sectored disks (with 11 holes) with the soft-sector >controller (which expected 1-hole disks). The idea was that you had >100's of hard-sector disks when you bought your new soft-sector >controller, and could re-use these disks. I was just thinking .. perhaps with a special driver, you could read soft-sector disks, in the soft-sector format, using the hard-sector controller. Or is the low-level encoding not compatible? I know you couldn't boot them, run soft-sector software, or probably write them, but you could perhaps read them. -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From ddl-cctech at danlan.com Fri Feb 4 15:36:18 2005 From: ddl-cctech at danlan.com (Dan Lanciani) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:36:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [sebhc] Soft/hard sector disks Message-ID: <200502042136.QAA06522@ss10.danlan.com> |"Steven Parker" wrote: | |Lee Wrote: |>It was the reverse of this. The published circuit allowed you to use |>physically hard-sectored disks (with 11 holes) with the soft-sector |>controller (which expected 1-hole disks). The idea was that you had |>100's of hard-sector disks when you bought your new soft-sector |>controller, and could re-use these disks. | |I was just thinking .. perhaps with a special driver, you could read |soft-sector disks, in the soft-sector format, using the hard-sector |controller. You might be able to read single density soft-sector disks this way, but not of course double-density. |Or is the low-level encoding not compatible? The H17 controller is pretty dumb and you can more-or-less read an FM track as a stream of bits, but you don't get the clocks. Standard FM formats use clocking violations as flags for synchronization. So the two questions would be (1) would the clocking violations upset the H17's clock recovery and (2) can you decode the bit stream without benefit of the flags? (I guess there is really a third question: is there enough preamble in the right place for the clock recovery to synchronize to begin with?) Dan Lanciani ddl at danlan.*com -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From rogbirk at wiktel.com Sun Feb 6 19:27:47 2005 From: rogbirk at wiktel.com (Roger Birkholz) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 19:27:47 -0600 Subject: [sebhc] Soft/hard sector disks References: Message-ID: <000c01c50cb4$3bd21f00$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Well! I'm glad there is lots of discussion on this. Thanks for setting things straight Lee. I wasn't even sure if I was on target much less a bullseye! My first Heathkit was a VTVM I built in 1973. Sure do miss those kits. Roger B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Parker" To: Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 12:09 PM Subject: [sebhc] Soft/hard sector disks > Lee Wrote: > >It was the reverse of this. The published circuit allowed you to use > >physically hard-sectored disks (with 11 holes) with the soft-sector > >controller (which expected 1-hole disks). The idea was that you had > >100's of hard-sector disks when you bought your new soft-sector > >controller, and could re-use these disks. > > I was just thinking .. perhaps with a special driver, you could read > soft-sector disks, in the soft-sector format, using the hard-sector > controller. Or is the low-level encoding not compatible? > > I know you couldn't boot them, run soft-sector software, or probably write > them, but you could perhaps read them. > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From kguenther6 at insightbb.com Mon Feb 21 13:24:28 2005 From: kguenther6 at insightbb.com (Ken Guenther) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:24:28 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver References: <000c01c50cb4$3bd21f00$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <000801c5184a$ff4d7500$c901a8c0@p4253> Does anyone have the printer driver for the h17 printer? I have the h24 that I downloaded off the archive site and it works ok but would like to get the one for the h17. Thank you. Ken Guenther Old programmers never die... They just "GOTO" -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon Feb 21 14:48:16 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 15:48:16 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <000801c5184a$ff4d7500$c901a8c0@p4253> Message-ID: <200502212048.j1LKm9wa028236@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> There is no H17 printer. The H17 was a disk system. Printers had model numbers ending in "4", mostly. Also, printer driver for what system/software? -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Ken Guenther Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:24 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: [sebhc] printer driver Does anyone have the printer driver for the h17 printer? I have the h24 that I downloaded off the archive site and it works ok but would like to get the one for the h17. Thank you. Ken Guenther Old programmers never die... They just "GOTO" -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Feb 21 15:09:14 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 13:09:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sebhc] printer driver Message-ID: <200502212109.NAA13604@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I was wondering why that so familiar. I just couldn't place that with a printer. The Heath computers drivers for Heath printers could be modified to work with any standard printer. They modified the state of one of the control signals from what everyone else had. I can't recall which signal was inverted but it was one of the handshake bits. One patches the driver and it works with standard printers. Dwight >From: "Barry Watzman" > >There is no H17 printer. The H17 was a disk system. Printers had model >numbers ending in "4", mostly. > >Also, printer driver for what system/software? > > >-----Original Message----- >From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Ken Guenther >Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:24 PM >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Subject: [sebhc] printer driver > >Does anyone have the printer driver for the h17 printer? I have the h24 >that I downloaded off the archive site and it works ok but would like to get > >the one for the h17. Thank you. > > >Ken Guenther > >Old programmers never die... They just "GOTO" > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From garlangr at verizon.net Mon Feb 21 19:51:35 2005 From: garlangr at verizon.net (Mark Garlanger) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:51:35 -0600 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <200502212048.j1LKm9wa028236@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <0ICA007KMIHXN0I3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Yes, the H-14 was the printer. I used to have one of those. The lower-case letters didn't even have true descender. I think it only handle ASCII I doubt a driver would provide any extra capabilities. Mark -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Barry Watzman Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:48 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: RE: [sebhc] printer driver There is no H17 printer. The H17 was a disk system. Printers had model numbers ending in "4", mostly. Also, printer driver for what system/software? -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Ken Guenther Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:24 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: [sebhc] printer driver Does anyone have the printer driver for the h17 printer? I have the h24 that I downloaded off the archive site and it works ok but would like to get the one for the h17. Thank you. Ken Guenther Old programmers never die... They just "GOTO" -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From garlangr at verizon.net Mon Feb 21 20:09:36 2005 From: garlangr at verizon.net (Mark Garlanger) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:09:36 -0600 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <000801c5184a$ff4d7500$c901a8c0@p4253> Message-ID: <0ICA007V3JBYMUQ3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> I think the saying would be better if it said: 'Old programmers never die... They just "return"' -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Ken Guenther Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 1:24 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: [sebhc] printer driver Does anyone have the printer driver for the h17 printer? I have the h24 that I downloaded off the archive site and it works ok but would like to get the one for the h17. Thank you. Ken Guenther Old programmers never die... They just "GOTO" -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon Feb 21 21:24:33 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:24:33 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <0ICA007KMIHXN0I3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200502220324.j1M3OQXW019699@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> It was only a low-duty cycle 7-wire printhead. We looked at doing graphics a few times, but concluded that anything with heavy "black" coverage would smoke the printhead. -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Mark Garlanger Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 8:52 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: RE: [sebhc] printer driver Yes, the H-14 was the printer. I used to have one of those. The lower-case letters didn't even have true descender. I think it only handle ASCII I doubt a driver would provide any extra capabilities. Mark -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Barry Watzman Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:48 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: RE: [sebhc] printer driver There is no H17 printer. The H17 was a disk system. Printers had model numbers ending in "4", mostly. Also, printer driver for what system/software? -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Ken Guenther Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:24 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: [sebhc] printer driver Does anyone have the printer driver for the h17 printer? I have the h24 that I downloaded off the archive site and it works ok but would like to get the one for the h17. Thank you. Ken Guenther Old programmers never die... They just "GOTO" -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From robert at ameritech.net Tue Feb 22 10:01:45 2005 From: robert at ameritech.net (H.E. Robert, [Just Bob!]) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:01:45 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <200502220324.j1M3OQXW019699@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200502220324.j1M3OQXW019699@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <421B5769.50607@ameritech.net> Boy isn't that the the truth!!! I built one of those babies when they first came out, for use with my Altair, and If I remember it used to calculate the printhead temp by monitoring the resistance of one of the printhead coils? That was aggravating, as it would only print about a page and a half, before going "over temp", and then would print a line or two, and cool for 5 to 10 minutes, before printing the next line or two. Then to top it off, the handshake between it and the Altair was not bullet-proof, and the end result was always a useless printout. I thought I had died and gone to heaven when I could finally afford a used Centronics 701!! Anybody know if the printhead was ever upgraded? And okay, I can't leave it alone... ......old programmers never die, they just.... A. GOSUB B. LOOP until NEXT (for the reincarnationist's on the list) C. go to tape...(paper or magnetic) D. reach the EOF E. hit "RUBOUT" instead of "HEREIS" F. get "FORKED"...(resource or data) G. are ready for archive! Allright, I'll stop now, Just Bob! Barry Watzman wrote: >It was only a low-duty cycle 7-wire printhead. We looked at doing graphics >a few times, but concluded that anything with heavy "black" coverage would >smoke the printhead. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Mark Garlanger >Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 8:52 PM >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Subject: RE: [sebhc] printer driver > >Yes, the H-14 was the printer. I used to have one of those. The lower-case >letters didn't even have true descender. I think it only handle ASCII I >doubt a driver would provide any extra capabilities. > > Mark > >-----Original Message----- >From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Barry Watzman >Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:48 PM >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Subject: RE: [sebhc] printer driver > >There is no H17 printer. The H17 was a disk system. Printers had model >numbers ending in "4", mostly. > >Also, printer driver for what system/software? > > >-----Original Message----- >From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Ken Guenther >Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:24 PM >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Subject: [sebhc] printer driver > >Does anyone have the printer driver for the h17 printer? I have the h24 >that I downloaded off the archive site and it works ok but would like to get > >the one for the h17. Thank you. > > >Ken Guenther > >Old programmers never die... They just "GOTO" > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 22 10:24:54 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:24:54 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <421B5769.50607@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <200502221624.j1MGOkXW001683@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> The printhead was never changed. I don't remember how thermal monitoring was done, it may have been via a calculation (count number of "hits" on the printhead wires per unit of time) or it might have been measured, but you definitely could drive it to the point at which it did thermal throttling to allow the printhead to cool. -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of H.E. Robert, [Just Bob!] Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:02 AM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] printer driver Boy isn't that the the truth!!! I built one of those babies when they first came out, for use with my Altair, and If I remember it used to calculate the printhead temp by monitoring the resistance of one of the printhead coils? That was aggravating, as it would only print about a page and a half, before going "over temp", and then would print a line or two, and cool for 5 to 10 minutes, before printing the next line or two. Then to top it off, the handshake between it and the Altair was not bullet-proof, and the end result was always a useless printout. I thought I had died and gone to heaven when I could finally afford a used Centronics 701!! Anybody know if the printhead was ever upgraded? And okay, I can't leave it alone... ......old programmers never die, they just.... A. GOSUB B. LOOP until NEXT (for the reincarnationist's on the list) C. go to tape...(paper or magnetic) D. reach the EOF E. hit "RUBOUT" instead of "HEREIS" F. get "FORKED"...(resource or data) G. are ready for archive! Allright, I'll stop now, Just Bob! Barry Watzman wrote: >It was only a low-duty cycle 7-wire printhead. We looked at doing graphics >a few times, but concluded that anything with heavy "black" coverage would >smoke the printhead. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Mark Garlanger >Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 8:52 PM >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Subject: RE: [sebhc] printer driver > >Yes, the H-14 was the printer. I used to have one of those. The lower-case >letters didn't even have true descender. I think it only handle ASCII I >doubt a driver would provide any extra capabilities. > > Mark > >-----Original Message----- >From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Barry Watzman >Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:48 PM >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Subject: RE: [sebhc] printer driver > >There is no H17 printer. The H17 was a disk system. Printers had model >numbers ending in "4", mostly. > >Also, printer driver for what system/software? > > >-----Original Message----- >From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Ken Guenther >Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:24 PM >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Subject: [sebhc] printer driver > >Does anyone have the printer driver for the h17 printer? I have the h24 >that I downloaded off the archive site and it works ok but would like to get > >the one for the h17. Thank you. > > >Ken Guenther > >Old programmers never die... They just "GOTO" > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Feb 22 11:18:07 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:18:07 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver Message-ID: <20050222171806.BHFJ18259.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Boy isn't that the the truth!!! I built one of those babies when >they first came out, for use with my Altair, and If I remember >it used to calculate the printhead temp by monitoring the resistance >of one of the printhead coils? That was aggravating, as it would only >print about a page and a half, before going "over temp", and then would >print a line or two, and cool for 5 to 10 minutes, before printing the next >line or two. Then to top it off, the handshake between it and the Altair >was not bullet-proof, and the end result was always a useless printout. >I thought I had died and gone to heaven when I could finally afford a used >Centronics 701!! Anybody know if the printhead was ever upgraded? My first printer (other than a teletype) was also an H-14, which I used on my Altair, and I do recall the thermal limiting after you had printed a few lines. I don't think mine waited "5 to 10" minutes, but I do recall that it would go into mode with a few second delay between each line that was printed. I also don't recall handshake problems - I did many a printout on that combination. By sheer coincience, my H-14 came back to me about a month ago - Gave it to a guy *many* years ago, and since lost touch - made contact again this year, and he still had it in his basement - haven't tried to fire it up yet, but it still looks to be in reasonable shape. One thing that didn't come back with it is the manual ... anyone have a scan of the H14 manual? My very first printer was a Teletype Model-28, which I generated baudot data for by toggleing the interrupt-enable line on my first homebuilt 8080 (didn't use interrupts in that system) - not thats going a long way back! Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Feb 22 11:26:01 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:26:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sebhc] printer driver Message-ID: <200502221726.JAA14105@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dave Dunfield" > ---snip--- >My first printer (other than a teletype) was also an H-14, which I used >on my Altair, and I do recall the thermal limiting after you had printed >a few lines. I don't think mine waited "5 to 10" minutes, but I do recall >that it would go into mode with a few second delay between each line that >was printed. I also don't recall handshake problems - I did many a printout >on that combination. > ---snip--- The handshake was most likely the result of the inverted handshake signal input. I recall having to write special printer drivers for the Heathkit to invert the signal for my old centronix 601. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 22 11:34:53 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:34:53 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <20050222171806.BHFJ18259.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <200502221735.j1MHYkHv024275@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> For all of it's faults, when the H-14 came out, it was a blockbuster product. You have to put yourself in the correct timeframe. When it came out, in 1978, there was NOTHING available in the way of a reasonable printer (excluding various used and surplus products) under about $1,000. Sure, the H-14 had it's limits, but for about 18 months, it was the least expensive printer you could buy, and it DID work. The biggest widespread problem was that as originally shipped, the drive to the paper feed motor was inadequate, and sometimes line feeds ... didn't. This was fixed with a modification board that was added beginning a few months after initial production, and which was also made available for retrofit to earlier customers. My recollection is that it was mounted vertically in the back right-hand corner of the printer. -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 12:18 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] printer driver >Boy isn't that the the truth!!! I built one of those babies when >they first came out, for use with my Altair, and If I remember >it used to calculate the printhead temp by monitoring the resistance >of one of the printhead coils? That was aggravating, as it would only >print about a page and a half, before going "over temp", and then would >print a line or two, and cool for 5 to 10 minutes, before printing the next >line or two. Then to top it off, the handshake between it and the Altair >was not bullet-proof, and the end result was always a useless printout. >I thought I had died and gone to heaven when I could finally afford a used >Centronics 701!! Anybody know if the printhead was ever upgraded? My first printer (other than a teletype) was also an H-14, which I used on my Altair, and I do recall the thermal limiting after you had printed a few lines. I don't think mine waited "5 to 10" minutes, but I do recall that it would go into mode with a few second delay between each line that was printed. I also don't recall handshake problems - I did many a printout on that combination. By sheer coincience, my H-14 came back to me about a month ago - Gave it to a guy *many* years ago, and since lost touch - made contact again this year, and he still had it in his basement - haven't tried to fire it up yet, but it still looks to be in reasonable shape. One thing that didn't come back with it is the manual ... anyone have a scan of the H14 manual? My very first printer was a Teletype Model-28, which I generated baudot data for by toggleing the interrupt-enable line on my first homebuilt 8080 (didn't use interrupts in that system) - not thats going a long way back! Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Tue Feb 22 15:54:23 2005 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:54:23 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver References: <20050222171806.BHFJ18259.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <421BAA0F.4642@earthlink.net> >> If I remember it used to calculate the printhead temp by monitoring >> the resistance of one of the printhead coils? Yes, that is correct. Dave Dunfield wrote: > I do recall the thermal limiting after you had printed a few lines. > I don't think mine waited "5 to 10" minutes, but I do recall that > it would go into mode with a few second delay between each line Also correct. The temperature sensing circuit had two outputs to the microcomputer; 'warm' and 'hot'. A 'warm' head added a few seconds delay between lines. A 'hot' head stopped printing entirely until the head temperature came back down to 'warm'. The peak printing rate was actually quite high; 165 chars/sec. That was actually pretty fast in those days. > anyone have a scan of the H14 manual? No scans, but I have the original manual. Send me your address offline and I'd be happy to loan it to you (if you promise to return it). > My very first printer was a Teletype Model-28, which I generated > baudot data for by toggleing the interrupt-enable line on my first > homebuilt 8080 (didn't use interrupts in that system) - now that's > going a long way back! Yes indeed! My first printer was a baudot teletype, left over from my ham radio RTTY work. 60 baud -- now *that* was slow! I graduated up to a Selectric typewriter with a board to run it as a printer. 137.5 baud, and another oddball shift/rotate code to deal with. So, the H14 was actually quite a step up! -- Ring the bells that you can ring Forget your perfect offering There is a crack in everything That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem" -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 22 14:05:06 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:05:06 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <421BAA0F.4642@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200502222005.j1MK4vXW014727@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Let me make a suggestion: If someone will photocopy the original H14 manual to individual 8.5"x11" pages (single or double sided), and send those to me, I will convert them to a PDF file. I have a high-end scanner with ADF and can do this relatively quickly and easily. In making the copy, remember, GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out). The PDF will be no better than the photocopies. Barry Watzman Watzman at neo.rr.com -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 4:54 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] printer driver >> If I remember it used to calculate the printhead temp by monitoring >> the resistance of one of the printhead coils? Yes, that is correct. Dave Dunfield wrote: > I do recall the thermal limiting after you had printed a few lines. > I don't think mine waited "5 to 10" minutes, but I do recall that > it would go into mode with a few second delay between each line Also correct. The temperature sensing circuit had two outputs to the microcomputer; 'warm' and 'hot'. A 'warm' head added a few seconds delay between lines. A 'hot' head stopped printing entirely until the head temperature came back down to 'warm'. The peak printing rate was actually quite high; 165 chars/sec. That was actually pretty fast in those days. > anyone have a scan of the H14 manual? No scans, but I have the original manual. Send me your address offline and I'd be happy to loan it to you (if you promise to return it). > My very first printer was a Teletype Model-28, which I generated > baudot data for by toggleing the interrupt-enable line on my first > homebuilt 8080 (didn't use interrupts in that system) - now that's > going a long way back! Yes indeed! My first printer was a baudot teletype, left over from my ham radio RTTY work. 60 baud -- now *that* was slow! I graduated up to a Selectric typewriter with a board to run it as a printer. 137.5 baud, and another oddball shift/rotate code to deal with. So, the H14 was actually quite a step up! -- Ring the bells that you can ring Forget your perfect offering There is a crack in everything That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem" -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From tygarsai at hotmail.com Tue Feb 22 14:09:16 2005 From: tygarsai at hotmail.com (Joshua Barone) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:09:16 -0600 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <200502222005.j1MK4vXW014727@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:09:16 GMT if you use an ocr program like text bridge you can actually take those photocopies and make them into pristine pdfs that way you could even edit them if you find mistakes. -Joshua Barone >From: "Barry Watzman" >Reply-To: sebhc at sebhc.org >To: >Subject: RE: [sebhc] printer driver >Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:05:06 -0500 > >Let me make a suggestion: If someone will photocopy the original H14 >manual >to individual 8.5"x11" pages (single or double sided), and send those to >me, >I will convert them to a PDF file. I have a high-end scanner with ADF and >can do this relatively quickly and easily. > >In making the copy, remember, GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out). The PDF will >be no better than the photocopies. > >Barry Watzman >Watzman at neo.rr.com > > >-----Original Message----- >From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart >Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 4:54 PM >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Subject: Re: [sebhc] printer driver > > >> If I remember it used to calculate the printhead temp by monitoring > >> the resistance of one of the printhead coils? > >Yes, that is correct. > >Dave Dunfield wrote: > > I do recall the thermal limiting after you had printed a few lines. > > I don't think mine waited "5 to 10" minutes, but I do recall that > > it would go into mode with a few second delay between each line > >Also correct. The temperature sensing circuit had two outputs to the >microcomputer; 'warm' and 'hot'. A 'warm' head added a few seconds delay >between lines. A 'hot' head stopped printing entirely until the head >temperature came back down to 'warm'. > >The peak printing rate was actually quite high; 165 chars/sec. That was >actually pretty fast in those days. > > > anyone have a scan of the H14 manual? > >No scans, but I have the original manual. Send me your address offline >and I'd be happy to loan it to you (if you promise to return it). > > > My very first printer was a Teletype Model-28, which I generated > > baudot data for by toggleing the interrupt-enable line on my first > > homebuilt 8080 (didn't use interrupts in that system) - now that's > > going a long way back! > >Yes indeed! My first printer was a baudot teletype, left over from my >ham radio RTTY work. 60 baud -- now *that* was slow! > >I graduated up to a Selectric typewriter with a board to run it as a >printer. 137.5 baud, and another oddball shift/rotate code to deal with. > >So, the H14 was actually quite a step up! >-- >Ring the bells that you can ring >Forget your perfect offering >There is a crack in everything >That's how the light gets in > -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem" >-- >Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From me at patswayne.com Tue Feb 22 14:18:25 2005 From: me at patswayne.com (Pat Swayne) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:18:25 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <421BAA0F.4642@earthlink.net> References: <20050222171806.BHFJ18259.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <421BAA0F.4642@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050222151718.034afed8@mail.patswayne.com> Lee Hart wrote: >Also correct. The temperature sensing circuit had two outputs to the >microcomputer; 'warm' and 'hot'. A 'warm' head added a few seconds delay >between lines. A 'hot' head stopped printing entirely until the head >temperature came back down to 'warm'. Did anybody ever try adding a cooing fan to try to make those things print faster? -- Pat -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From paulpenn at knology.net Tue Feb 22 14:34:26 2005 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:34:26 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver References: <20050222171806.BHFJ18259.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <421BAA0F.4642@earthlink.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050222151718.034afed8@mail.patswayne.com> Message-ID: <021601c5191d$e6db12b0$6501a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Pat asked: > Did anybody ever try adding a cooing fan to try to make those things print > faster? Yes. Me. Not an H-14, actually, but an Okidata. It did the same thing -- slowed down when the printhead got hot. One of my customers was printing labels for prescription bottles as a service for clinics. They would run labels all day long. I left the lid off the printer and set an ordinary desk fan to blow into it. Worked great! Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com Tue Feb 22 15:33:46 2005 From: RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com (West, Ronald S.) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:33:46 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] SEBHCCON anyone? Message-ID: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEAA1D7@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Anyone interested in an SEBHCCON like the old HUGCON that the Heath Users Group used to hold? Could be as simple as a group of us getting together in the same restaurant or hotel somewhere. Maybe we could rent a meeting room in a hotel (or not), set up tables and show off our computers & projects we are working on. Maybe we could get the guys who were working on HDOS 3.0 to come and talk about things they planned to put into the OS before the plug got pulled. Might be fun. Whatdyathink? Ron -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 22 15:44:18 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:44:18 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050222151718.034afed8@mail.patswayne.com> Message-ID: <200502222144.j1MLi8Hv022490@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> You'd have to blow across the head, which is moving -- unless you mounted the fan on the carriage. -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Pat Swayne Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 3:18 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] printer driver Lee Hart wrote: >Also correct. The temperature sensing circuit had two outputs to the >microcomputer; 'warm' and 'hot'. A 'warm' head added a few seconds delay >between lines. A 'hot' head stopped printing entirely until the head >temperature came back down to 'warm'. Did anybody ever try adding a cooing fan to try to make those things print faster? -- Pat -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 22 15:43:07 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:43:07 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200502222143.j1MLgwXW011133@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> That doesn't work as well in practice as it does in theory. -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Barone Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 3:09 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: RE: [sebhc] printer driver if you use an ocr program like text bridge you can actually take those photocopies and make them into pristine pdfs that way you could even edit them if you find mistakes. -Joshua Barone >From: "Barry Watzman" >Reply-To: sebhc at sebhc.org >To: >Subject: RE: [sebhc] printer driver >Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:05:06 -0500 > >Let me make a suggestion: If someone will photocopy the original H14 >manual >to individual 8.5"x11" pages (single or double sided), and send those to >me, >I will convert them to a PDF file. I have a high-end scanner with ADF and >can do this relatively quickly and easily. > >In making the copy, remember, GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out). The PDF will >be no better than the photocopies. > >Barry Watzman >Watzman at neo.rr.com > > >-----Original Message----- >From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart >Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 4:54 PM >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Subject: Re: [sebhc] printer driver > > >> If I remember it used to calculate the printhead temp by monitoring > >> the resistance of one of the printhead coils? > >Yes, that is correct. > >Dave Dunfield wrote: > > I do recall the thermal limiting after you had printed a few lines. > > I don't think mine waited "5 to 10" minutes, but I do recall that > > it would go into mode with a few second delay between each line > >Also correct. The temperature sensing circuit had two outputs to the >microcomputer; 'warm' and 'hot'. A 'warm' head added a few seconds delay >between lines. A 'hot' head stopped printing entirely until the head >temperature came back down to 'warm'. > >The peak printing rate was actually quite high; 165 chars/sec. That was >actually pretty fast in those days. > > > anyone have a scan of the H14 manual? > >No scans, but I have the original manual. Send me your address offline >and I'd be happy to loan it to you (if you promise to return it). > > > My very first printer was a Teletype Model-28, which I generated > > baudot data for by toggleing the interrupt-enable line on my first > > homebuilt 8080 (didn't use interrupts in that system) - now that's > > going a long way back! > >Yes indeed! My first printer was a baudot teletype, left over from my >ham radio RTTY work. 60 baud -- now *that* was slow! > >I graduated up to a Selectric typewriter with a board to run it as a >printer. 137.5 baud, and another oddball shift/rotate code to deal with. > >So, the H14 was actually quite a step up! >-- >Ring the bells that you can ring >Forget your perfect offering >There is a crack in everything >That's how the light gets in > -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem" >-- >Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Feb 22 16:11:26 2005 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:11:26 -0600 Subject: [sebhc] SEBHCCON anyone? In-Reply-To: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEAA1D7@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Message-ID: <000101c5192b$741b9520$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> This sounds like a great idea! Seems to me that it would make great sense to try to coordinate it with one of the many VCF's (Vintage Computer Festival) that are now appearing on the calendar - you could choose East, West or Midwest. As for the HDOS 3.0 guys, we have a major contributor to the effort on the SEBHC list if he chooses to speak up! Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > West, Ronald S. > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 3:34 PM > To: 'sebhc at sebhc.org' > Subject: [sebhc] SEBHCCON anyone? > > > Anyone interested in an SEBHCCON like the old HUGCON that the > Heath Users Group used to hold? Could be as simple as a group > of us getting together in the same restaurant or hotel > somewhere. Maybe we could rent a meeting room in a hotel (or > not), set up tables and show off our computers & projects we > are working on. Maybe we could get the guys who were working > on HDOS 3.0 to come and talk about things they planned to put > into the OS before the plug got pulled. Might be fun. > > Whatdyathink? > > Ron > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jwt at OnJapan.net Tue Feb 22 20:25:28 2005 From: jwt at OnJapan.net (Jim Tittsler) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:25:28 +0900 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <200502221735.j1MHYkHv024275@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200502221735.j1MHYkHv024275@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <136de003f6ea08a74b54eb96eebe61b8@onjapan.net> On Feb 23, 2005, at 02:34, Barry Watzman wrote: > The biggest widespread problem was that as originally shipped, the > drive to > the paper feed motor was inadequate, and sometimes line feeds ... > didn't. > This was fixed with a modification board that was added beginning a few > months after initial production, and which was also made available for > retrofit to earlier customers. My recollection is that it was mounted > vertically in the back right-hand corner of the printer. There was also a significant firmware revision that improved the dot timing and the printer handshaking. -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From robert at ameritech.net Wed Feb 23 00:17:09 2005 From: robert at ameritech.net (H.E. Robert, [Just Bob!]) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:17:09 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <200502221735.j1MHYkHv024275@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200502221735.j1MHYkHv024275@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <421C1FE5.5020400@ameritech.net> As much as my comments seemed to malign the H-14, I do have a special place in my "clock source" for them! It was absolutely the coolest thing I had built, up to then, and the price was indeed, the major sway point for me! And don't forget that valuable Heathkit Revolving Charge account! I'm sure that was the clincher!! My original printer like many folks I imagine, was the 33 ASR tty, (my original cost $1200, in used refurb'ed condition in '76), and yes it did work, and ran circles around the tty! And it used tractor feed paper! An expensive option on a tty. And as with most Heathkit products, many of the features were just pure "outside the box genius"! Even the printhead preservation technique employed, worked extremely well, (even if it did tick me off, from time to time)! But I owe a lot to that little guy, it taught me most of what I know about printers, interfacing, and handshake! Anybody have a source for printer ribbons for Heath printers in general? Also a bit off topic, but anyone on the list have any leads on an H-8 reasonably priced, and a teletype, model 35 ASR? Just Bob! Barry Watzman wrote: >For all of it's faults, when the H-14 came out, it was a blockbuster >product. You have to put yourself in the correct timeframe. When it came >out, in 1978, there was NOTHING available in the way of a reasonable printer >(excluding various used and surplus products) under about $1,000. Sure, the >H-14 had it's limits, but for about 18 months, it was the least expensive >printer you could buy, and it DID work. > >The biggest widespread problem was that as originally shipped, the drive to >the paper feed motor was inadequate, and sometimes line feeds ... didn't. >This was fixed with a modification board that was added beginning a few >months after initial production, and which was also made available for >retrofit to earlier customers. My recollection is that it was mounted >vertically in the back right-hand corner of the printer. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield >Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 12:18 PM >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Subject: Re: [sebhc] printer driver > > > >>Boy isn't that the the truth!!! I built one of those babies when >>they first came out, for use with my Altair, and If I remember >>it used to calculate the printhead temp by monitoring the resistance >>of one of the printhead coils? That was aggravating, as it would only >>print about a page and a half, before going "over temp", and then would >>print a line or two, and cool for 5 to 10 minutes, before printing the next >>line or two. Then to top it off, the handshake between it and the Altair >>was not bullet-proof, and the end result was always a useless printout. >>I thought I had died and gone to heaven when I could finally afford a used >>Centronics 701!! Anybody know if the printhead was ever upgraded? >> >> > >My first printer (other than a teletype) was also an H-14, which I used >on my Altair, and I do recall the thermal limiting after you had printed >a few lines. I don't think mine waited "5 to 10" minutes, but I do recall >that it would go into mode with a few second delay between each line that >was printed. I also don't recall handshake problems - I did many a printout >on that combination. > > >By sheer coincience, my H-14 came back to me about a month ago - Gave it to >a guy *many* years ago, and since lost touch - made contact again this year, >and he still had it in his basement - haven't tried to fire it up yet, but >it still looks to be in reasonable shape. One thing that didn't come back >with it is the manual ... anyone have a scan of the H14 manual? > > >My very first printer was a Teletype Model-28, which I generated baudot data >for by toggleing the interrupt-enable line on my first homebuilt 8080 >(didn't >use interrupts in that system) - not thats going a long way back! > >Regards, >Dave > > From kguenther6 at insightbb.com Wed Feb 23 07:13:26 2005 From: kguenther6 at insightbb.com (Ken Guenther) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:13:26 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver References: <200502221735.j1MHYkHv024275@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <421C1FE5.5020400@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <000b01c519a9$78f44910$c901a8c0@p4253> > Anybody have a source for printer ribbons for Heath printers in > general? I just bought some ribbons for my H14 at Office Max. And thanks Jack for letting me know I was submitting from the wrong address. Ken Guenther Old programmers never die... They just "GOTO" ----- Original Message ----- From: "H.E. Robert, [Just Bob!]" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 1:17 AM Subject: Re: [sebhc] printer driver > As much as my comments seemed to malign the H-14, > I do have a special place in my "clock source" for them! It was > absolutely the coolest thing I had built, up to then, and the price > was indeed, the major sway point for me! And don't forget that valuable > Heathkit Revolving Charge account! I'm sure that was the clincher!! > My original printer like many folks I imagine, was the 33 ASR tty, (my > original > cost $1200, in used refurb'ed condition in '76), and yes it did work, > and ran > circles around the tty! And it used tractor feed paper! An expensive > option > on a tty. And as with most Heathkit products, many of the features were > just > pure "outside the box genius"! Even the printhead preservation technique > employed, worked extremely well, (even if it did tick me off, from time > to time)! > > But I owe a lot to that little guy, it taught me most of what I know > about printers, > interfacing, and handshake! > > Anybody have a source for printer ribbons for Heath printers in > general? Also > a bit off topic, but anyone on the list have any leads on an H-8 > reasonably priced, > and a teletype, model 35 ASR? > > Just Bob! > > > > Barry Watzman wrote: > >>For all of it's faults, when the H-14 came out, it was a blockbuster >>product. You have to put yourself in the correct timeframe. When it came >>out, in 1978, there was NOTHING available in the way of a reasonable >>printer >>(excluding various used and surplus products) under about $1,000. Sure, >>the >>H-14 had it's limits, but for about 18 months, it was the least expensive >>printer you could buy, and it DID work. >> >>The biggest widespread problem was that as originally shipped, the drive >>to >>the paper feed motor was inadequate, and sometimes line feeds ... didn't. >>This was fixed with a modification board that was added beginning a few >>months after initial production, and which was also made available for >>retrofit to earlier customers. My recollection is that it was mounted >>vertically in the back right-hand corner of the printer. >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield >>Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 12:18 PM >>To: sebhc at sebhc.org >>Subject: Re: [sebhc] printer driver >> >> >> >>>Boy isn't that the the truth!!! I built one of those babies when >>>they first came out, for use with my Altair, and If I remember >>>it used to calculate the printhead temp by monitoring the resistance >>>of one of the printhead coils? That was aggravating, as it would only >>>print about a page and a half, before going "over temp", and then would >>>print a line or two, and cool for 5 to 10 minutes, before printing the >>>next >>>line or two. Then to top it off, the handshake between it and the Altair >>>was not bullet-proof, and the end result was always a useless printout. >>>I thought I had died and gone to heaven when I could finally afford a >>>used >>>Centronics 701!! Anybody know if the printhead was ever upgraded? >>> >>> >> >>My first printer (other than a teletype) was also an H-14, which I used >>on my Altair, and I do recall the thermal limiting after you had printed >>a few lines. I don't think mine waited "5 to 10" minutes, but I do recall >>that it would go into mode with a few second delay between each line that >>was printed. I also don't recall handshake problems - I did many a >>printout >>on that combination. >> >> >>By sheer coincience, my H-14 came back to me about a month ago - Gave it >>to >>a guy *many* years ago, and since lost touch - made contact again this >>year, >>and he still had it in his basement - haven't tried to fire it up yet, but >>it still looks to be in reasonable shape. One thing that didn't come back >>with it is the manual ... anyone have a scan of the H14 manual? >> >> >>My very first printer was a Teletype Model-28, which I generated baudot >>data >>for by toggleing the interrupt-enable line on my first homebuilt 8080 >>(didn't >>use interrupts in that system) - not thats going a long way back! >> >>Regards, >>Dave >> >> > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Wed Feb 23 07:26:45 2005 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:26:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: [sebhc] SEBHCCON anyone? In-Reply-To: <000101c5192b$741b9520$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> (jack.rubin@ameritech.net) References: <000101c5192b$741b9520$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <1109077104@rothfus.com> If Jack's in, I'm in! :-) -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Feb 23 08:48:44 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:48:44 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <421C1FE5.5020400@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <200502231448.j1NEmYHv024050@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> There is an H8 and an H17 on E-Bay right now. It's broken -- smoked when turned on (both the H8 and H17) but looks easily repairable. It's complete, also -- cpu, serial card, 64k memory (the single 64k card, too), H17 controller, CP/M org-zero card. Barry Watzman Watzman at neo.rr.com -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of H.E. Robert, [Just Bob!] Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 1:17 AM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] printer driver As much as my comments seemed to malign the H-14, I do have a special place in my "clock source" for them! It was absolutely the coolest thing I had built, up to then, and the price was indeed, the major sway point for me! And don't forget that valuable Heathkit Revolving Charge account! I'm sure that was the clincher!! My original printer like many folks I imagine, was the 33 ASR tty, (my original cost $1200, in used refurb'ed condition in '76), and yes it did work, and ran circles around the tty! And it used tractor feed paper! An expensive option on a tty. And as with most Heathkit products, many of the features were just pure "outside the box genius"! Even the printhead preservation technique employed, worked extremely well, (even if it did tick me off, from time to time)! But I owe a lot to that little guy, it taught me most of what I know about printers, interfacing, and handshake! Anybody have a source for printer ribbons for Heath printers in general? Also a bit off topic, but anyone on the list have any leads on an H-8 reasonably priced, and a teletype, model 35 ASR? Just Bob! Barry Watzman wrote: >For all of it's faults, when the H-14 came out, it was a blockbuster >product. You have to put yourself in the correct timeframe. When it came >out, in 1978, there was NOTHING available in the way of a reasonable printer >(excluding various used and surplus products) under about $1,000. Sure, the >H-14 had it's limits, but for about 18 months, it was the least expensive >printer you could buy, and it DID work. > >The biggest widespread problem was that as originally shipped, the drive to >the paper feed motor was inadequate, and sometimes line feeds ... didn't. >This was fixed with a modification board that was added beginning a few >months after initial production, and which was also made available for >retrofit to earlier customers. My recollection is that it was mounted >vertically in the back right-hand corner of the printer. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield >Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 12:18 PM >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Subject: Re: [sebhc] printer driver > > > >>Boy isn't that the the truth!!! I built one of those babies when >>they first came out, for use with my Altair, and If I remember >>it used to calculate the printhead temp by monitoring the resistance >>of one of the printhead coils? That was aggravating, as it would only >>print about a page and a half, before going "over temp", and then would >>print a line or two, and cool for 5 to 10 minutes, before printing the next >>line or two. Then to top it off, the handshake between it and the Altair >>was not bullet-proof, and the end result was always a useless printout. >>I thought I had died and gone to heaven when I could finally afford a used >>Centronics 701!! Anybody know if the printhead was ever upgraded? >> >> > >My first printer (other than a teletype) was also an H-14, which I used >on my Altair, and I do recall the thermal limiting after you had printed >a few lines. I don't think mine waited "5 to 10" minutes, but I do recall >that it would go into mode with a few second delay between each line that >was printed. I also don't recall handshake problems - I did many a printout >on that combination. > > >By sheer coincience, my H-14 came back to me about a month ago - Gave it to >a guy *many* years ago, and since lost touch - made contact again this year, >and he still had it in his basement - haven't tried to fire it up yet, but >it still looks to be in reasonable shape. One thing that didn't come back >with it is the manual ... anyone have a scan of the H14 manual? > > >My very first printer was a Teletype Model-28, which I generated baudot data >for by toggleing the interrupt-enable line on my first homebuilt 8080 >(didn't >use interrupts in that system) - not thats going a long way back! > >Regards, >Dave > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From rhp at draper.net Wed Feb 23 10:36:43 2005 From: rhp at draper.net (Reed H. Petty) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:36:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <421BAA0F.4642@earthlink.net> References: <20050222171806.BHFJ18259.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <421BAA0F.4642@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <57360.66.197.171.21.1109176603.squirrel@mail.draper.net> On Tue, February 22, 2005 3:54 pm, Lee Hart said: > > Dave Dunfield wrote: >> My very first printer was a Teletype Model-28, which I generated >> baudot data for by toggleing the interrupt-enable line on my first >> homebuilt 8080 (didn't use interrupts in that system) - now that's >> going a long way back! > > Yes indeed! My first printer was a baudot teletype, left over from my > ham radio RTTY work. 60 baud -- now *that* was slow! > 45 baud Model 28 TTYs, sigh... reperferators, transmitter/distributors, 100KW HF radio into rhombic antennas, brings back memories of military (paper) tape relay systems. Somehow life seemed a lot simplier back then! Reed (WI3C) -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Feb 24 11:33:27 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:33:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sebhc] printer driver Message-ID: <200502241733.JAA15311@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Why doesn't the seller put the controller card with the drive. It is a real pain to try to get a drive with the controller. Dwight >From: "Barry Watzman" > >There is an H8 and an H17 on E-Bay right now. It's broken -- smoked when >turned on (both the H8 and H17) but looks easily repairable. It's complete, >also -- cpu, serial card, 64k memory (the single 64k card, too), H17 >controller, CP/M org-zero card. > >Barry Watzman >Watzman at neo.rr.com > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Feb 24 11:46:58 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:46:58 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <200502241733.JAA15311@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200502241747.j1OHklXW004626@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> I tried to get him to put the H8 and H17 together, but other people urged him not to. Take it up with him, it's not my auction. -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Dwight K. Elvey Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 12:33 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: RE: [sebhc] printer driver Hi Why doesn't the seller put the controller card with the drive. It is a real pain to try to get a drive with the controller. Dwight >From: "Barry Watzman" > >There is an H8 and an H17 on E-Bay right now. It's broken -- smoked when >turned on (both the H8 and H17) but looks easily repairable. It's complete, >also -- cpu, serial card, 64k memory (the single 64k card, too), H17 >controller, CP/M org-zero card. > >Barry Watzman >Watzman at neo.rr.com > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Thu Feb 24 15:32:38 2005 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:32:38 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver References: <200502241747.j1OHklXW004626@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <421E47F6.4C65@earthlink.net> Barry Watzman wrote: > I tried to get him to put the H8 and H17 together, but other people > urged him not to. Take it up with him, it's not my auction. Strange, isn't it? It's like selling left and right shoes separately. Then again... did any of you ever watch the british sitcom "The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin"? He was a middle-management executive who was going nowhere in his career by trying to succeed. So he decided to try to fail -- and succeeded instead! In one episode he goes to work for "The Grot Shop" -- basically a thrift store. They have hundreds of pairs of shoes that nobody wants. Reggie decides to sell shoes "each" instead of as pairs, and is flooded with eager business from one-legged people who are delighted that they finally can buy just one shoe! Maybe the guy figures he can make more money selling two halves of a computer than one whole one! -- If you would not be forgotten When your body's dead and rotten Then write of great deeds worth the reading Or do the great deeds worth repeating -- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From robert at ameritech.net Fri Feb 25 00:35:56 2005 From: robert at ameritech.net (H.E. Robert, [Just Bob!]) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 01:35:56 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <421E47F6.4C65@earthlink.net> References: <200502241747.j1OHklXW004626@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <421E47F6.4C65@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <421EC74C.10800@ameritech.net> Well, I guess it comes down to the parts are worth more than the whole! I remember in the '70's, a Renault LeCar sold for around $5K, put to build one from parts was around $250K!! It makes sense for the seller to sell the drives separate from the CPU, but honestly, I don't believe removal of the boards would detract from the final bid on the H-8, as much as they could add to the bids on the H-17 drives? ... ....but then again anybody with an H-8 looking for drives, probably already has the controller right? So to follow the logic (expressed below), if the seller removed the boards, they would break the chain, and some poor unfortunate soul (like myself), would end up with an H-8, and no controller, and any other chance at drives would also be controller-less, (assuming I lost this H-17 auction), and I would never be able to complete a working system, unless someone on the list, felt sorry for me! Now I'm really depressed!!! Okay, on a brighter note, did anybody see what a 33ASR just went for? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5167154458 US $1,420.00! What's up with that??? I learned that lesson early on, ..... never mix large quantities of Red Wine and ebay! It is insanity wrapped in amnesia, an expensive lesson, to be sure! Trust me! Just Bob! Lee Hart wrote: >Barry Watzman wrote: > > >>I tried to get him to put the H8 and H17 together, but other people >>urged him not to. Take it up with him, it's not my auction. >> >> > >Strange, isn't it? It's like selling left and right shoes separately. > >Then again... did any of you ever watch the british sitcom "The Fall and >Rise of Reginald Perrin"? He was a middle-management executive who was >going nowhere in his career by trying to succeed. So he decided to try >to fail -- and succeeded instead! > >In one episode he goes to work for "The Grot Shop" -- basically a thrift >store. They have hundreds of pairs of shoes that nobody wants. Reggie >decides to sell shoes "each" instead of as pairs, and is flooded with >eager business from one-legged people who are delighted that they >finally can buy just one shoe! > >Maybe the guy figures he can make more money selling two halves of a >computer than one whole one! > > From Watzman at neo.rr.com Fri Feb 25 07:25:59 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:25:59 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <421EC74C.10800@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <200502251326.j1PDPxXW007365@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Well, fwiw, the drives in the H-17 are generic 5.25" drives, so some $1 flea market drives will work, as will a pair of half height drives. I know it's not historically accurate, but it's functional. The real problem is getting diskettes. -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of H.E. Robert, [Just Bob!] Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 1:36 AM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] printer driver Well, I guess it comes down to the parts are worth more than the whole! I remember in the '70's, a Renault LeCar sold for around $5K, put to build one from parts was around $250K!! It makes sense for the seller to sell the drives separate from the CPU, but honestly, I don't believe removal of the boards would detract from the final bid on the H-8, as much as they could add to the bids on the H-17 drives? ... ....but then again anybody with an H-8 looking for drives, probably already has the controller right? So to follow the logic (expressed below), if the seller removed the boards, they would break the chain, and some poor unfortunate soul (like myself), would end up with an H-8, and no controller, and any other chance at drives would also be controller-less, (assuming I lost this H-17 auction), and I would never be able to complete a working system, unless someone on the list, felt sorry for me! Now I'm really depressed!!! Okay, on a brighter note, did anybody see what a 33ASR just went for? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5167154458 US $1,420.00! What's up with that??? I learned that lesson early on, ..... never mix large quantities of Red Wine and ebay! It is insanity wrapped in amnesia, an expensive lesson, to be sure! Trust me! Just Bob! Lee Hart wrote: >Barry Watzman wrote: > > >>I tried to get him to put the H8 and H17 together, but other people >>urged him not to. Take it up with him, it's not my auction. >> >> > >Strange, isn't it? It's like selling left and right shoes separately. > >Then again... did any of you ever watch the british sitcom "The Fall and >Rise of Reginald Perrin"? He was a middle-management executive who was >going nowhere in his career by trying to succeed. So he decided to try >to fail -- and succeeded instead! > >In one episode he goes to work for "The Grot Shop" -- basically a thrift >store. They have hundreds of pairs of shoes that nobody wants. Reggie >decides to sell shoes "each" instead of as pairs, and is flooded with >eager business from one-legged people who are delighted that they >finally can buy just one shoe! > >Maybe the guy figures he can make more money selling two halves of a >computer than one whole one! > > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From shumaker at att.net Fri Feb 25 09:46:50 2005 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 07:46:50 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <200502251326.j1PDPxXW007365@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com > References: <421EC74C.10800@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20050225074332.028fe098@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> It's been a long time since my h8 was around but wasn't there a softsector setup? or am I just dredging up memories of other systems that had it? steve s At 08:25 AM 2/25/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Well, fwiw, the drives in the H-17 are generic 5.25" drives, so some $1 flea >market drives will work, as will a pair of half height drives. I know it's >not historically accurate, but it's functional. The real problem is getting >diskettes. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of H.E. Robert, >[Just Bob!] >Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 1:36 AM >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Subject: Re: [sebhc] printer driver > >Well, I guess it comes down to the parts are worth more than the whole! >I remember in the '70's, a Renault LeCar sold for around $5K, put to >build one >from parts was around $250K!! It makes sense for the seller to sell the >drives separate from the CPU, but honestly, I don't believe removal of the >boards would detract from the final bid on the H-8, as much as they could >add to the bids on the H-17 drives? ... >....but then again anybody with an H-8 looking for drives, probably already >has the controller right? So to follow the logic (expressed below), if >the seller >removed the boards, they would break the chain, and some poor >unfortunate soul >(like myself), would end up with an H-8, and no controller, and any >other chance >at drives would also be controller-less, (assuming I lost this H-17 >auction), >and I would never be able to complete a working system, unless someone > on the list, felt sorry for me! Now I'm really depressed!!! > >Okay, on a brighter note, did anybody see what a 33ASR just went for? >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5167154458 >US $1,420.00! What's up with that??? I learned that lesson early on, >..... >never mix large quantities of Red Wine and ebay! It is insanity >wrapped in amnesia, an expensive lesson, to be sure! Trust me! > >Just Bob! > >Lee Hart wrote: > > >Barry Watzman wrote: > > > > > >>I tried to get him to put the H8 and H17 together, but other people > >>urged him not to. Take it up with him, it's not my auction. > >> > >> > > > >Strange, isn't it? It's like selling left and right shoes separately. > > > >Then again... did any of you ever watch the british sitcom "The Fall and > >Rise of Reginald Perrin"? He was a middle-management executive who was > >going nowhere in his career by trying to succeed. So he decided to try > >to fail -- and succeeded instead! > > > >In one episode he goes to work for "The Grot Shop" -- basically a thrift > >store. They have hundreds of pairs of shoes that nobody wants. Reggie > >decides to sell shoes "each" instead of as pairs, and is flooded with > >eager business from one-legged people who are delighted that they > >finally can buy just one shoe! > > > >Maybe the guy figures he can make more money selling two halves of a > >computer than one whole one! > > > > > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From Watzman at neo.rr.com Fri Feb 25 10:05:51 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:05:51 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20050225074332.028fe098@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <200502251606.j1PG5oYG020075@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Yes, with a different controller. But the system in question being sold on E-Bay has the original hard sector controller. -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of steve shumaker Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 10:47 AM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: RE: [sebhc] printer driver It's been a long time since my h8 was around but wasn't there a softsector setup? or am I just dredging up memories of other systems that had it? steve s At 08:25 AM 2/25/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Well, fwiw, the drives in the H-17 are generic 5.25" drives, so some $1 flea >market drives will work, as will a pair of half height drives. I know it's >not historically accurate, but it's functional. The real problem is getting >diskettes. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of H.E. Robert, >[Just Bob!] >Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 1:36 AM >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Subject: Re: [sebhc] printer driver > >Well, I guess it comes down to the parts are worth more than the whole! >I remember in the '70's, a Renault LeCar sold for around $5K, put to >build one >from parts was around $250K!! It makes sense for the seller to sell the >drives separate from the CPU, but honestly, I don't believe removal of the >boards would detract from the final bid on the H-8, as much as they could >add to the bids on the H-17 drives? ... >....but then again anybody with an H-8 looking for drives, probably already >has the controller right? So to follow the logic (expressed below), if >the seller >removed the boards, they would break the chain, and some poor >unfortunate soul >(like myself), would end up with an H-8, and no controller, and any >other chance >at drives would also be controller-less, (assuming I lost this H-17 >auction), >and I would never be able to complete a working system, unless someone > on the list, felt sorry for me! Now I'm really depressed!!! > >Okay, on a brighter note, did anybody see what a 33ASR just went for? >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5167154458 >US $1,420.00! What's up with that??? I learned that lesson early on, >..... >never mix large quantities of Red Wine and ebay! It is insanity >wrapped in amnesia, an expensive lesson, to be sure! Trust me! > >Just Bob! > >Lee Hart wrote: > > >Barry Watzman wrote: > > > > > >>I tried to get him to put the H8 and H17 together, but other people > >>urged him not to. Take it up with him, it's not my auction. > >> > >> > > > >Strange, isn't it? It's like selling left and right shoes separately. > > > >Then again... did any of you ever watch the british sitcom "The Fall and > >Rise of Reginald Perrin"? He was a middle-management executive who was > >going nowhere in his career by trying to succeed. So he decided to try > >to fail -- and succeeded instead! > > > >In one episode he goes to work for "The Grot Shop" -- basically a thrift > >store. They have hundreds of pairs of shoes that nobody wants. Reggie > >decides to sell shoes "each" instead of as pairs, and is flooded with > >eager business from one-legged people who are delighted that they > >finally can buy just one shoe! > > > >Maybe the guy figures he can make more money selling two halves of a > >computer than one whole one! > > > > > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Feb 25 12:09:56 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:09:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sebhc] printer driver Message-ID: <200502251809.KAA16070@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Barry I just expect that the controller would go with the drive. It adds little to the H8 without the H17 drive included. Dwight From: "Barry Watzman" > >I tried to get him to put the H8 and H17 together, but other people urged >him not to. Take it up with him, it's not my auction. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Dwight K. Elvey >Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 12:33 PM >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Subject: RE: [sebhc] printer driver > >Hi > Why doesn't the seller put the controller card with the >drive. It is a real pain to try to get a drive with the >controller. >Dwight > > >>From: "Barry Watzman" >> >>There is an H8 and an H17 on E-Bay right now. It's broken -- smoked when >>turned on (both the H8 and H17) but looks easily repairable. It's >complete, >>also -- cpu, serial card, 64k memory (the single 64k card, too), H17 >>controller, CP/M org-zero card. >> >>Barry Watzman >>Watzman at neo.rr.com >> > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Feb 25 12:18:42 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:18:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sebhc] printer driver Message-ID: <200502251818.KAA16074@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "H.E. Robert, [Just Bob!]" > >Well, I guess it comes down to the parts are worth more than the whole! >I remember in the '70's, a Renault LeCar sold for around $5K, put to >build one >from parts was around $250K!! It makes sense for the seller to sell the >drives separate from the CPU, but honestly, I don't believe removal of the >boards would detract from the final bid on the H-8, as much as they could >add to the bids on the H-17 drives? ... Hi If past auctions are any indication, yes. The H8 is going to go for around $350-$500 with or without the controller card. This rarely effects the system price. The drive will add at least $50 to $100 with the controller card. Ready for plug and play. Dwight >....but then again anybody with an H-8 looking for drives, probably already >has the controller right? It is hard to believe that a H8 would be sitting around with a controller card in it and it never had a drive connected. I've bought two H8's and neither came with a controller card. These were rarely sold separately to the original user. You bought a controller and drives. Or at least, you had some drives you expected to connect to it when you bought the controller. The controller is part of the drive system and not the H8. Dwight ---snip--- -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Feb 25 12:43:35 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:43:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sebhc] printer driver Message-ID: <200502251843.KAA16080@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Barry Watzman" > >Well, fwiw, the drives in the H-17 are generic 5.25" drives, so some $1 flea >market drives will work, as will a pair of half height drives. I know it's >not historically accurate, but it's functional. The real problem is getting >diskettes. > Hi The H17 is more than just drives, it is a box and power supply. It is part of a system. The drives are getting rare but they are still cheap. For most collectors, it is more than just connecting a drive that will work. I know I'd like to have an H17 connected rather than some Teak connected to a cheap switcher that I mounted on a piece of plywood. As for disk, I now punch my own disks :) Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Feb 25 13:49:06 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:49:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sebhc] SEBHCCON anyone? Message-ID: <200502251949.LAA16108@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Eric J. Rothfus" > >If Jack's in, I'm in! :-) > As with real-estate, location, location, location. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com Fri Feb 25 14:14:30 2005 From: RONALD.S.WEST at saic.com (West, Ronald S.) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:14:30 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] SEBHCCON anyone? Message-ID: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEAA1E9@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> I guess this would be a question for the list owner. Do you have location info on all of us? Can you tell where the largest concentration of SEBHC folks are? That might be the place to consider first. Ron > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Dwight K. Elvey > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 2:49 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] SEBHCCON anyone? > > > >From: "Eric J. Rothfus" > > > >If Jack's in, I'm in! :-) > > > > As with real-estate, location, location, location. > Dwight > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From Watzman at neo.rr.com Fri Feb 25 14:27:22 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:27:22 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] printer driver In-Reply-To: <200502251809.KAA16070@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200502252027.j1PKRKYG020303@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Actually, I'd argue that it adds a lot to the H-8, but takes away more from the H17. In any case, you should take it up with the seller. -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Dwight K. Elvey Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 1:10 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: RE: [sebhc] printer driver Hi Barry I just expect that the controller would go with the drive. It adds little to the H8 without the H17 drive included. Dwight From: "Barry Watzman" > >I tried to get him to put the H8 and H17 together, but other people urged >him not to. Take it up with him, it's not my auction. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Dwight K. Elvey >Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 12:33 PM >To: sebhc at sebhc.org >Subject: RE: [sebhc] printer driver > >Hi > Why doesn't the seller put the controller card with the >drive. It is a real pain to try to get a drive with the >controller. >Dwight > > >>From: "Barry Watzman" >> >>There is an H8 and an H17 on E-Bay right now. It's broken -- smoked when >>turned on (both the H8 and H17) but looks easily repairable. It's >complete, >>also -- cpu, serial card, 64k memory (the single 64k card, too), H17 >>controller, CP/M org-zero card. >> >>Barry Watzman >>Watzman at neo.rr.com >> > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > >-- >Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From garlangr at verizon.net Fri Feb 25 19:20:18 2005 From: garlangr at verizon.net (Mark Garlanger) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:20:18 -0600 Subject: [sebhc] SEBHCCON anyone? In-Reply-To: <6A47CB4A48D1EA49A6F7AB618490D6490AEAA1E9@mcl-its-exs03.mail.saic.com> Message-ID: <0ICH00DY5VPW0FM1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> I don't recall providing location information when I signed up for the list... But since no one mentioned location yet, I vote for somewhere close to Dallas. ;-) Mark -----Original Message----- From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of West, Ronald S. Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 2:15 PM To: 'sebhc at sebhc.org' Subject: RE: [sebhc] SEBHCCON anyone? I guess this would be a question for the list owner. Do you have location info on all of us? Can you tell where the largest concentration of SEBHC folks are? That might be the place to consider first. Ron > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Dwight K. Elvey > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 2:49 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] SEBHCCON anyone? > > > >From: "Eric J. Rothfus" > > > >If Jack's in, I'm in! :-) > > > > As with real-estate, location, location, location. > Dwight > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Fri Feb 25 21:19:38 2005 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:19:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: [sebhc] SEBHCCON anyone? In-Reply-To: <0ICH00DY5VPW0FM1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> (garlangr@verizon.net) References: <0ICH00DY5VPW0FM1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <1109376046@rothfus.com> > I don't recall providing location information when I signed up for the > list... But since no one mentioned location yet, I vote for somewhere close > to Dallas. ;-) Dallas would work...or Austin for that matter. Eric -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Feb 26 04:38:32 2005 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 04:38:32 -0600 Subject: [sebhc] SEBHCCON anyone? - yes yes yes yes yes yes yes In-Reply-To: <000001c51be7$f54e4570$0402a8c0@RealTime.local> Message-ID: <000201c51bef$51c33b10$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Eric, I greatly appreciate your enthusiam (I received 25+ copies of this email!!) - definitely in the Chicago tradition. And traditionally, Chicago was the site of the annual Heath Users Group meetings - Barry was a star attraction at several of them. I will be at the next VCF (which will be VCF Midwest 1.0) in May at Purdue University, in (West?) Lafayette, Indiana. If there is any interest, I'll be glad to set up a session for HUGgies - what the heck, I've already got a box of HUG badges for you all! Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > Eric J. Rothfus > Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 3:46 AM > To: postmaster at mail.evocative.com > Cc: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] SEBHCCON anyone? > > > > I don't recall providing location information when I signed > up for the > > list... But since no one mentioned location yet, I vote for > somewhere > > close to Dallas. ;-) > > Dallas would work...or Austin for that matter. > > Eric > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > -- -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Sat Feb 26 07:45:58 2005 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 07:45:58 -0600 (CST) Subject: [sebhc] SEBHCCON anyone? - yes yes yes yes yes yes yes In-Reply-To: <000201c51bef$51c33b10$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> (jack.rubin@ameritech.net) References: <000201c51bef$51c33b10$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <1109387978@rothfus.com> There's a runaway process going somewhere. My Linux box may be going nuts...I'm looking into it. Eric -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Sat Feb 26 07:54:36 2005 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 07:54:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: [sebhc] SEBHCCON anyone? - yes yes yes yes yes yes yes In-Reply-To: <000201c51bef$51c33b10$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> (jack.rubin@ameritech.net) References: <000201c51bef$51c33b10$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <1109425557@rothfus.com> It looks like the e-mail is looping around because the is set in the "To:" with the list in the "CC:". There's something wrong with the e-mail causing an X-Authentication-Warning which looks to want to be sent to the postmaster...but then CC'ing the list, causing the same error to occur again. My logs don't indicate mail going out from my end. Patrick, you out there? Help! I don't want the SEBHCCON in Austin THAT much! Eric -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Sat Feb 26 10:39:14 2005 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 10:39:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: [sebhc] One every 15 minutes... In-Reply-To: <1109425557@rothfus.com> (eric@rothfus.com) References: <000201c51bef$51c33b10$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> <1109425557@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <1109426076@rothfus.com> you could almost set your watch by that e-mail... -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Feb 26 10:39:38 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 11:39:38 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] ERIC -- ***IMPORTANT*** In-Reply-To: <000001c51c20$7e7efd70$0402a8c0@RealTime.local> Message-ID: <200502261639.j1QGdaHI028773@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Eric, you have sent this message over ONE HUNDRED TIMES, and each transmission is coming back to you and getting echoed. You clearly have a huge problem, you are polluting the hell out of the mailboxes of all or your fellow sebhc members. You need to take your computer off-line until you get this resolved. It's getting out of hand. -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Sat Feb 26 10:47:21 2005 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 10:47:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: [sebhc] ERIC -- ***IMPORTANT*** In-Reply-To: <200502261639.j1QGdaHI028773@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> (Watzman@neo.rr.com) References: <200502261639.j1QGdaHI028773@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <1109435954@rothfus.com> Hi Barry, It's not my machine doing it. My e-mail set it off somehow, but it is a loop at the server. I have TURNED OFF my e-mail sending program (sendmail) for hours this morning, but the mail still looped around. In fact, I've sent multiple e-mail messages to this group that DID NOT cause the same looping problem. There's something at the server. I'm terribly sorry that my e-mail started it, but there's nothing I can do about it from here. Eric -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Sat Feb 26 13:24:45 2005 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:24:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: [sebhc] It Stopped! In-Reply-To: <1109426076@rothfus.com> (eric@rothfus.com) References: <000201c51bef$51c33b10$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> <1109425557@rothfus.com> <1109426076@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <1109436441@rothfus.com> Could someone re-enable my posts please? :-) -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Sat Feb 26 13:25:31 2005 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:25:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: [sebhc] No it didn't! In-Reply-To: <1109436441@rothfus.com> (eric@rothfus.com) References: <000201c51bef$51c33b10$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> <1109425557@rothfus.com> <1109426076@rothfus.com> <1109436441@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <1109445885@rothfus.com> The latest just took a while to post. -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From billwilkinson at mindspring.com Sat Feb 26 14:39:31 2005 From: billwilkinson at mindspring.com (William Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:39:31 -0600 Subject: [sebhc] Newbie Question Message-ID: <410-220052626203931437@mindspring.com> I'm new to this listserve and was wondering if anyone is interested in attending an 8-bit Heathkit computer convention in Dallas or Austin? I'm not planning on setting one up mind you, I was just wondering. --Bill ObSmiley--> :-) From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Feb 26 16:02:18 2005 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:02:18 -0600 Subject: [sebhc] Newbie Question In-Reply-To: <410-220052626203931437@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <001c01c51c4e$d7148440$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> thanks Bill, we needed that - glad to have you on board! > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of > William Wilkinson > Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 2:40 PM > To: SEBHC > Subject: [sebhc] Newbie Question > > > I'm new to this listserve and was wondering if anyone is > interested in attending an 8-bit Heathkit computer convention > in Dallas or Austin? > > I'm not planning on setting one up mind you, I was just wondering. > > > --Bill > > ObSmiley--> :-) > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Sat Feb 26 17:06:52 2005 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:06:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: [sebhc] Update on repeating posts... In-Reply-To: <000001c51c56$f12eaba0$0402a8c0@RealTime.local> (eric@rothfus.com) References: <0ICH00DY5VPW0FM1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <000001c51c56$f12eaba0$0402a8c0@RealTime.local> Message-ID: <1109455745@rothfus.com> Now that we've crossed the 80 mark of repeating posts that appear to be from me, I thought I'd update the list on what's going on. The first post of the "Re: [sebhc] SEBHCCON anyone?" is actually mine. All that follow are bounces from another list member's computer. He's working on the problem...apparently he's installed a new Exchange server recently. Please check out the headers on the message if you want more info. Eric -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From sp11 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 26 17:34:22 2005 From: sp11 at hotmail.com (Steven Parker) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 23:34:22 +0000 Subject: [sebhc] SEBHCcon Dallas? Rats! In-Reply-To: <410-220052626203931437@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 23:34:22 GMT >....an 8-bit Heathkit computer convention in Dallas or Austin? Figures .. after living in the Dallas area for almost 20 years that an SEBHC con would be held there just after I've moved away. :-) - Steven (now in Louisiana) -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Sat Feb 26 18:11:59 2005 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:11:59 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] Test -- ignore Message-ID: <005601c51c60$f4b09ae0$61218543@berkeley.evocative.com> Testing... -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Sat Feb 26 18:17:34 2005 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:17:34 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] Test 2 -- ignore Message-ID: <005701c51c61$bc162320$61218543@berkeley.evocative.com> del -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Sat Feb 26 18:19:02 2005 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:19:02 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] Test 3 -- ignore Message-ID: <005801c51c61$f0a1ace0$61218543@berkeley.evocative.com> Ignore me -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Sat Feb 26 18:33:18 2005 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:33:18 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] Test 8 -- ignore Message-ID: <000701c51c63$eedda3d0$61218543@berkeley.evocative.com> Please ignore 8 -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From eric at rothfus.com Sat Feb 26 23:19:19 2005 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 23:19:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: [sebhc] Test -- ignore In-Reply-To: <005601c51c60$f4b09ae0$61218543@berkeley.evocative.com> (patrick@vintagecomputermarketplace.com) References: <005601c51c60$f4b09ae0$61218543@berkeley.evocative.com> Message-ID: <1109480968@rothfus.com> Hey Patrick, > What in the heck did this guy do to his exchange server to do this? :-) God knows. Thanks for fixing it in any case. It was quite embarrassing to have "my" e-mail flooding the group! Hope the new Daddy-biz is going ok :-). Eric -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From glynf1 at cox.net Sun Feb 27 14:40:18 2005 From: glynf1 at cox.net (Glyn Firth) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:40:18 -0600 Subject: [sebhc] IC information Message-ID: <003001c51d0c$8cc6f7b0$6501a8c0@glyndell> I have just began to rejuvenate my H8 system. I have discovered that the -5volt voltage regulator on the CPU board is bad( I assume the 8080A is also cooked) The part # is 79MGT2C. I have checked some places on the net and found the IC, but most have a min order of a $100 or so.Does anyone know of a source for this IC? Thanks Glyn From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun Feb 27 14:57:47 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:57:47 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] IC information In-Reply-To: <003001c51d0c$8cc6f7b0$6501a8c0@glyndell> Message-ID: <200502272058.j1RKvgXW023715@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> You can probably get one at Radio Shack, it's just a 7905, in an appropriate case (probably TO-220, but 7905's come in lots of different case styles)(the letters don't matter). Very, very common and inexpensive part. Online sources: www.jameco.com www.jdr.com www.digikey.com www.meci.com [there are many others] These don't fail often, and they usually fail "open", which might not screw up the 8080. Look for another problem. -----Original Message----- From: sebhc-bounces at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc-bounces at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Glyn Firth Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 3:40 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: [sebhc] IC information I have just began to rejuvenate my H8 system. I have discovered that the -5volt voltage regulator on the CPU board is bad( I assume the 8080A is also cooked) The part # is 79MGT2C. I have checked some places on the net and found the IC, but most have a min order of a $100 or so.Does anyone know of a source for this IC? Thanks Glyn -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From melamy at earthlink.net Sun Feb 27 15:01:42 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:01:42 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] IC information In-Reply-To: <003001c51d0c$8cc6f7b0$6501a8c0@glyndell> References: <003001c51d0c$8cc6f7b0$6501a8c0@glyndell> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050227155805.02437cc0@mail.earthlink.net> www.jameco.com www.digikey.com www.bgmicro.com www.alltronics.com www.allelectronics.com www.halted.com and a host of others... these are ones that I deal with from time to time and none of them have a $100 minimum. best regards, Steve Thatcher At 03:40 PM 02/27/2005, Glyn Firth wrote: >I have just began to rejuvenate my H8 system. I have discovered that the >-5volt voltage regulator on the CPU board is bad( I assume the 8080A is >also cooked) The part # is 79MGT2C. I have checked some places on the net >and found the IC, but most have a min order of a $100 or so.Does anyone >know of a source for this IC? >Thanks >Glyn -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From glynf1 at cox.net Sun Feb 27 15:21:13 2005 From: glynf1 at cox.net (Glyn Firth) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:21:13 -0600 Subject: [sebhc] IC information References: <200502272058.j1RKvgXW023715@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <004001c51d12$43ee8890$6501a8c0@glyndell> Thanks for the information, I checked on the 7905 and it is a three lead device, the 79MGT2C is a 4 pin IC on the cpu board. I don't have data sheets on these devices, is there a trick? Thanks Glyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Watzman" To: Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 2:57 PM Subject: RE: [sebhc] IC information > You can probably get one at Radio Shack, it's just a 7905, in an > appropriate > case (probably TO-220, but 7905's come in lots of different case > styles)(the > letters don't matter). Very, very common and inexpensive part. Online > sources: > > www.jameco.com > www.jdr.com > www.digikey.com > www.meci.com > > [there are many others] > > These don't fail often, and they usually fail "open", which might not > screw > up the 8080. Look for another problem. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc-bounces at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc-bounces at sebhc.org] On Behalf > Of > Glyn Firth > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 3:40 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: [sebhc] IC information > > I have just began to rejuvenate my H8 system. I have discovered that the > -5volt voltage regulator on the CPU board is bad( I assume the 8080A is > also > cooked) The part # is 79MGT2C. I have checked some places on the net and > found the IC, but most have a min order of a $100 or so.Does anyone know > of > a source for this IC? > Thanks > Glyn > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun Feb 27 15:38:50 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:38:50 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] IC information In-Reply-To: <004001c51d12$43ee8890$6501a8c0@glyndell> Message-ID: <200502272138.j1RLcjHI029493@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> No, I was assuming that it was a 3-terminal regulator, but apparently it's not. You should still be able to find it at some of the sites listed. Definitely add bgmicro to that list. -----Original Message----- From: sebhc-bounces at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc-bounces at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Glyn Firth Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 4:21 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] IC information Thanks for the information, I checked on the 7905 and it is a three lead device, the 79MGT2C is a 4 pin IC on the cpu board. I don't have data sheets on these devices, is there a trick? Thanks Glyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Watzman" To: Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 2:57 PM Subject: RE: [sebhc] IC information > You can probably get one at Radio Shack, it's just a 7905, in an > appropriate > case (probably TO-220, but 7905's come in lots of different case > styles)(the > letters don't matter). Very, very common and inexpensive part. Online > sources: > > www.jameco.com > www.jdr.com > www.digikey.com > www.meci.com > > [there are many others] > > These don't fail often, and they usually fail "open", which might not > screw > up the 8080. Look for another problem. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc-bounces at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc-bounces at sebhc.org] On Behalf > Of > Glyn Firth > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 3:40 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: [sebhc] IC information > > I have just began to rejuvenate my H8 system. I have discovered that the > -5volt voltage regulator on the CPU board is bad( I assume the 8080A is > also > cooked) The part # is 79MGT2C. I have checked some places on the net and > found the IC, but most have a min order of a $100 or so.Does anyone know > of > a source for this IC? > Thanks > Glyn > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From billwilkinson at mindspring.com Sun Feb 27 17:17:35 2005 From: billwilkinson at mindspring.com (William Wilkinson) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:17:35 -0600 Subject: [sebhc] IC information Message-ID: <410-220052027231735140@mindspring.com> Glyn, I just happen to have the data sheet. According to it, the extra lead on the 79MG is a control lead that determines the output voltage. On the H8, R233 and R234 sets it to -5VDC. Quiescent current at 25 degrees C is typically 0.5 mA (2.5 mA max). Peak output current is 650 mA. The 7905 is about 1 mA (2 mA max) quiescent with a peak output of 2.1 amps. If you wanted to hack the hardware, you could probably sub it with the 7905. Looking at the H8 schematic and circuit board x-ray views, the only chips it appears to feed is the CPU at pin 11 and the ROM (IC-204) at pin 21 through a jumper, T1-T2. The latter was probably to accommodate various types of ROMs and EPROMs. Regards, Bill > [Original Message] > From: Glyn Firth > To: > Date: 2/27/2005 3:23:52 PM > Subject: Re: [sebhc] IC information > > Thanks for the information, I checked on the 7905 and it is a three lead > device, the 79MGT2C is a 4 pin IC on the cpu board. I don't have data > sheets on these devices, is there a trick? > Thanks > Glyn > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Barry Watzman" > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 2:57 PM > Subject: RE: [sebhc] IC information > > > > You can probably get one at Radio Shack, it's just a 7905, in an > > appropriate > > case (probably TO-220, but 7905's come in lots of different case > > styles)(the > > letters don't matter). Very, very common and inexpensive part. Online > > sources: > > > > www.jameco.com > > www.jdr.com > > www.digikey.com > > www.meci.com > > > > [there are many others] > > > > These don't fail often, and they usually fail "open", which might not > > screw > > up the 8080. Look for another problem. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sebhc-bounces at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc-bounces at sebhc.org] On Behalf > > Of > > Glyn Firth > > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 3:40 PM > > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > > Subject: [sebhc] IC information > > > > I have just began to rejuvenate my H8 system. I have discovered that the > > -5volt voltage regulator on the CPU board is bad( I assume the 8080A is > > also > > cooked) The part # is 79MGT2C. I have checked some places on the net and > > found the IC, but most have a min order of a $100 or so.Does anyone know > > of > > a source for this IC? > > Thanks > > Glyn > > > > > > -- > > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Sun Feb 27 19:26:31 2005 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:26:31 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] IC information References: <200502272058.j1RKvgXW023715@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <004001c51d12$43ee8890$6501a8c0@glyndell> Message-ID: <42227347.1F1B@earthlink.net> Glyn Firth wrote: >> I have just began to rejuvenate my H8 system. I have discovered >> that the -5volt voltage regulator on the CPU board is bad... >> The part # is 79MGT2C. Barry Watzman wrote: > You can probably get one at Radio Shack, it's just a 7905, in an > appropriate case (probably TO-220, but 7905's come in lots of > different case styles, the letters don't matter). Very, very > common and inexpensive part. No, Glyn is right. The H8 8080 CPU board uses a *very* unusual part, nothing like a generic 7905. The 79MGT2C (Heath 442-618) looks like an 8-pin DIP, but with pins 2,3,6,7 replaced by large wide "bat wing" ears. It is actually a -2.25v regulator, and uses two external resistors to program the output voltage to -5v. Finding an exact replacement *will* be a challenge! However, if you just want to get the H8 functional, I would replace it with a 7905 (or equivalent 3-terminal regulator. This is pretty straightforward if you have the schematic. If you need instructions to do this, ask. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From glynf1 at cox.net Sun Feb 27 18:07:05 2005 From: glynf1 at cox.net (Glyn Firth) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 18:07:05 -0600 Subject: [sebhc] IC information References: <200502272058.j1RKvgXW023715@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <004001c51d12$43ee8890$6501a8c0@glyndell> <42227347.1F1B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <005c01c51d29$7023b4a0$6501a8c0@glyndell> Lee, I do not have the schematic, would you please advise. Thanks Glyn --- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Hart" To: Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 7:26 PM Subject: Re: [sebhc] IC information > Glyn Firth wrote: >>> I have just began to rejuvenate my H8 system. I have discovered >>> that the -5volt voltage regulator on the CPU board is bad... >>> The part # is 79MGT2C. > > Barry Watzman wrote: >> You can probably get one at Radio Shack, it's just a 7905, in an >> appropriate case (probably TO-220, but 7905's come in lots of >> different case styles, the letters don't matter). Very, very >> common and inexpensive part. > > No, Glyn is right. The H8 8080 CPU board uses a *very* unusual part, > nothing like a generic 7905. The 79MGT2C (Heath 442-618) looks like an > 8-pin DIP, but with pins 2,3,6,7 replaced by large wide "bat wing" ears. > It is actually a -2.25v regulator, and uses two external resistors to > program the output voltage to -5v. > > Finding an exact replacement *will* be a challenge! However, if you just > want to get the H8 functional, I would replace it with a 7905 (or > equivalent 3-terminal regulator. > > This is pretty straightforward if you have the schematic. If you need > instructions to do this, ask. > -- > "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed > citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever > has!" -- Margaret Mead > -- > Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun Feb 27 20:23:41 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:23:41 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] IC information In-Reply-To: <005c01c51d29$7023b4a0$6501a8c0@glyndell> Message-ID: <200502280223.j1S2NaHv003526@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> The straight 7905 is a simple 3-terminal device -- input (a voltage at least 2.5 volts "more negative" than -5 volts, that is, -7.5 volts or more), ground and output. There should be a small capacitor across the output (just a couple of uF, and it's probably already there). The same pins exist on the 79MGt2C, plus one other one used to change the output voltage. What I don't have is a reference as to which pins of the two voltage regulators are which. The 7905 should be mounted on a heatsink, you can use the same heatsink as the other regulators are on. Verify that the exposed metal back is ground, if it's not, you will need an insulator. Run wires to the appropriate points on the board where the old regulator was. If the old regulator is socketed, you can just remove it. In fact, you could use a dip header plugged into the IC socket to do this "cleanly". -----Original Message----- From: sebhc-bounces at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc-bounces at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Glyn Firth Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 7:07 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] IC information Lee, I do not have the schematic, would you please advise. Thanks Glyn --- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Hart" To: Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 7:26 PM Subject: Re: [sebhc] IC information > Glyn Firth wrote: >>> I have just began to rejuvenate my H8 system. I have discovered >>> that the -5volt voltage regulator on the CPU board is bad... >>> The part # is 79MGT2C. > > Barry Watzman wrote: >> You can probably get one at Radio Shack, it's just a 7905, in an >> appropriate case (probably TO-220, but 7905's come in lots of >> different case styles, the letters don't matter). Very, very >> common and inexpensive part. > > No, Glyn is right. The H8 8080 CPU board uses a *very* unusual part, > nothing like a generic 7905. The 79MGT2C (Heath 442-618) looks like an > 8-pin DIP, but with pins 2,3,6,7 replaced by large wide "bat wing" ears. > It is actually a -2.25v regulator, and uses two external resistors to > program the output voltage to -5v. > > Finding an exact replacement *will* be a challenge! However, if you just > want to get the H8 functional, I would replace it with a 7905 (or > equivalent 3-terminal regulator. > > This is pretty straightforward if you have the schematic. If you need > instructions to do this, ask. > -- > "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed > citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever > has!" -- Margaret Mead > -- > Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Sun Feb 27 22:54:24 2005 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 20:54:24 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] IC information References: <200502272058.j1RKvgXW023715@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <004001c51d12$43ee8890$6501a8c0@glyndell> <42227347.1F1B@earthlink.net> <005c01c51d29$7023b4a0$6501a8c0@glyndell> Message-ID: <4222A400.4447@earthlink.net> Glyn Firth wrote: > > Lee, > I do not have the schematic, would you please advise. Glad to! The silkscreen on the PC board labels IC203 pins 1, 2, 3, and 4. Pin 1=ground, pin 2=reference, pin 3=output, and pin 4=input. Remove the dead chip, and get a 7905. I'll assume you have one in the T0-220 package (3 leads, plus a metal heatsink tab). Let's number the pins of the T0-220 package. Lay it on the table, with the metal tab on the surface on the table and the 3 leads pointing toward you. Pin 1=ground=left pin, pin 2=center=input, pin 3=right=output. So, install the 7905 in place of the 79MGT2 as follows: 7905 79MGT2 function ---- ------ -------- pin 1 pin 1 ground pin 2 pin 4 input (-18v) pin 3 pin 3 output (-5v) pin 2 reference (no connection with 7905) You can unplug the 8080 (IC213) and ROM (IC204) to test that the -5v supply is fixed and working; this will prevent possible damage to the chips if you get it wired wrong. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From ddl-cctech at danlan.com Sun Feb 27 21:09:18 2005 From: ddl-cctech at danlan.com (Dan Lanciani) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:09:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [sebhc] IC information Message-ID: <200502280309.WAA04756@ss10.danlan.com> |The 7905 should be mounted on a heatsink, you can use the same |heatsink as the other regulators are on. Verify that the exposed metal back |is ground, if it's not, you will need an insulator. Do there actually exist any 7905s where the metal case or tab is ground? Dan Lanciani ddl at danlan.*com -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun Feb 27 21:14:21 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:14:21 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] IC information In-Reply-To: <200502280309.WAA04756@ss10.danlan.com> Message-ID: <200502280314.j1S3EGXW027832@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> I don't know, I don't have a data sheet here, but I wanted to raise the issue, because I was concerned that for the 79xx regulators, the back metal was not at ground and an insulator was required. -----Original Message----- From: sebhc-bounces at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc-bounces at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Dan Lanciani Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 10:09 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: RE: [sebhc] IC information |The 7905 should be mounted on a heatsink, you can use the same |heatsink as the other regulators are on. Verify that the exposed metal back |is ground, if it's not, you will need an insulator. Do there actually exist any 7905s where the metal case or tab is ground? Dan Lanciani ddl at danlan.*com -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun Feb 27 21:35:43 2005 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:35:43 -0600 Subject: [sebhc] IC information In-Reply-To: <410-220052027231735140@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <000401c51d46$9730c840$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Bill, If you would be willing to scan the data sheet, I'll be happy to post it to the archive. If you can't scan it, please send me a photocopy and I'll take care of the scanning and posting. Thanks. Jack > -----Original Message----- > From: sebhc-bounces at sebhc.org > [mailto:sebhc-bounces at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of William Wilkinson > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 5:18 PM > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > Subject: Re: [sebhc] IC information > > > Glyn, > > I just happen to have the data sheet. According to it, the > extra lead on the 79MG is a control lead that determines the > output voltage. On the H8, R233 and R234 sets it to -5VDC. > Quiescent current at 25 degrees C is typically 0.5 mA (2.5 mA > max). Peak output current is 650 mA. The 7905 is about 1 mA > (2 mA max) quiescent with a peak output of 2.1 amps. > > If you wanted to hack the hardware, you could probably sub it > with the 7905. > > Looking at the H8 schematic and circuit board x-ray views, > the only chips it appears to feed is the CPU at pin 11 and > the ROM (IC-204) at pin 21 through a jumper, T1-T2. The > latter was probably to accommodate various types of ROMs and EPROMs. > > Regards, > Bill > > > > [Original Message] > > From: Glyn Firth > > To: > > Date: 2/27/2005 3:23:52 PM > > Subject: Re: [sebhc] IC information > > > > Thanks for the information, I checked on the 7905 and it is a three > > lead > > device, the 79MGT2C is a 4 pin IC on the cpu board. I > don't have data > > sheets on these devices, is there a trick? > > Thanks > > Glyn > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Barry Watzman" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 2:57 PM > > Subject: RE: [sebhc] IC information > > > > > > > You can probably get one at Radio Shack, it's just a 7905, in an > > > appropriate > > > case (probably TO-220, but 7905's come in lots of different case > > > styles)(the > > > letters don't matter). Very, very common and inexpensive > part. Online > > > sources: > > > > > > www.jameco.com > > > www.jdr.com > > > www.digikey.com > > > www.meci.com > > > > > > [there are many others] > > > > > > These don't fail often, and they usually fail "open", which might > > > not > > > screw > > > up the 8080. Look for another problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: sebhc-bounces at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc-bounces at sebhc.org] On > Behalf > > > Of > > > Glyn Firth > > > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 3:40 PM > > > To: sebhc at sebhc.org > > > Subject: [sebhc] IC information > > > > > > I have just began to rejuvenate my H8 system. I have > discovered that > > > the -5volt voltage regulator on the CPU board is bad( I > assume the > > > 8080A is also > > > cooked) The part # is 79MGT2C. I have checked some places > on the net > > > and found the IC, but most have a min order of a $100 or so.Does > > > anyone > know > > > of > > > a source for this IC? > > > Thanks > > > Glyn > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > > > > > > > -- > > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From billwilkinson at mindspring.com Sun Feb 27 23:49:57 2005 From: billwilkinson at mindspring.com (William Wilkinson) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:49:57 -0600 Subject: [sebhc] IC information Message-ID: <410-22005212854957265@mindspring.com> > [Original Message] > From: Jack Rubin > To: > Date: 2/27/2005 9:37:24 PM > Subject: RE: [sebhc] IC information > > Bill, > > If you would be willing to scan the data sheet, I'll be happy to post it to > the archive. If you can't scan it, please send me a photocopy and I'll take > care of the scanning and posting. > > Thanks. > > Jack Done! There's four pages: The first two are specifications for both the positive and negative regulators (the information is intermixed); while the last two shows some applications. I've reduced the size to shorten upload time, but the picture quality isn't much better at full size. The sheets are a copy of a copy. --Bill -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From leeahart at earthlink.net Mon Feb 28 02:36:02 2005 From: leeahart at earthlink.net (Lee Hart) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 00:36:02 -0800 Subject: [sebhc] IC information References: <200502280309.WAA04756@ss10.danlan.com> Message-ID: <4222D7F2.3C35@earthlink.net> Dan Lanciani wrote: > |The 7905 should be mounted on a heatsink Not in this case. The regulator only powers the -5v of an 8080 and a triple-supply ROM. Current drain is very low, so no heatsink is needed. And there WAS no heatsink on the H8 board. > |Verify that the exposed metal back is ground, if it's not, > |you will need an insulator. > > Do there actually exist any 7905s where the metal case or tab > is ground? Not that I know of. On pretty much all the negative voltage regulators, the heatsink tab is NOT ground! -- If you would not be forgotten When your body's dead and rotten Then write of great deeds worth the reading Or do the great deeds worth repeating -- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Feb 28 03:51:20 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:51:20 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] IC information Message-ID: <20050228095120.YFHJ25598.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >>The 7905 should be mounted on a heatsink, you can use the same >>heatsink as the other regulators are on. Verify that the exposed >>metal back is ground, if it's not, you will need an insulator. > >Do there actually exist any 7905s where the metal case or tab is ground? I've never seen any variant of the 7905 where the tab was ground (really inconvienent)... However, the current requirements of an 8080 on the -5v supply are < 1ma I doubt he needs to headsink the regulator. Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Feb 28 12:36:08 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:36:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [sebhc] IC information Message-ID: <200502281836.KAA17982@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Barry Watzman" > >I don't know, I don't have a data sheet here, but I wanted to raise the >issue, because I was concerned that for the 79xx regulators, the back metal >was not at ground and an insulator was required. > ---snip--- Hi If the original circuit didn't need a heat sink, you don't need to put one on the 7905. I don't have the board handy but I think the load was quite small for this regulator and it should run fine without and heat sink. If it does get too hot, you can try one of the clip on heat sinks that don't need to be hard mounted to the board. This avoid any issue with the tab not being ground. As I recall, the 7905 tab had to be isolated from ground. Dwight -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From glynf1 at cox.net Mon Feb 28 20:37:16 2005 From: glynf1 at cox.net (Glyn Firth) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:37:16 -0600 Subject: [sebhc] IC information References: <20050228095120.YFHJ25598.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <000501c51e07$958df500$6501a8c0@glyndell> Thanks for all the input - will put the 7905 in this weekend. Will advise! (I feel that since this IC fed the ROM ic I may have more problems) Thanks again. Glyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Dunfield" To: Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 3:51 AM Subject: RE: [sebhc] IC information >>>The 7905 should be mounted on a heatsink, you can use the same >>>heatsink as the other regulators are on. Verify that the exposed >>>metal back is ground, if it's not, you will need an insulator. >> >>Do there actually exist any 7905s where the metal case or tab is ground? > > I've never seen any variant of the 7905 where the tab was ground (really > inconvienent)... However, the current requirements of an 8080 on the -5v > supply are < 1ma I doubt he needs to headsink the regulator. > > Regards, > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon Feb 28 21:26:50 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:26:50 -0500 Subject: [sebhc] IC information In-Reply-To: <000501c51e07$958df500$6501a8c0@glyndell> Message-ID: <200503010326.j213QgHv017753@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Chips will sometimes take a lot more abuse than you expect -----Original Message----- From: sebhc-bounces at sebhc.org [mailto:sebhc-bounces at sebhc.org] On Behalf Of Glyn Firth Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 9:37 PM To: sebhc at sebhc.org Subject: Re: [sebhc] IC information Thanks for all the input - will put the 7905 in this weekend. Will advise! (I feel that since this IC fed the ROM ic I may have more problems) Thanks again. Glyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Dunfield" To: Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 3:51 AM Subject: RE: [sebhc] IC information >>>The 7905 should be mounted on a heatsink, you can use the same >>>heatsink as the other regulators are on. Verify that the exposed >>>metal back is ground, if it's not, you will need an insulator. >> >>Do there actually exist any 7905s where the metal case or tab is ground? > > I've never seen any variant of the 7905 where the tab was ground (really > inconvienent)... However, the current requirements of an 8080 on the -5v > supply are < 1ma I doubt he needs to headsink the regulator. > > Regards, > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > > -- > Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List > -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List -- Delivered by the SEBHC Mailing List